The Eucharist: Real Presence or symbol?

[rbarcia]

I don’t understand why John 6 continues to be used as justification for real presence since it was not even the last supper.

So was Jesus Holding a communion service when he fed the 5000 with the bread he got from the few loaves?

Seems odd that Jesus would compare the bread they just ate (which was produced by a miracle from Jesus) to Himself (and then later on reveal it to be something else that looked like bread.).

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

Did Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross happen at the last supper as well.

Seems odd that the writer of Hebrews compares a daily sacrifice to Christ’s one sacrifice and yet (make it appear like this sacrifice happens daily?).

It’s like saying daily sacrifices can never take away sin, but this one can. So let’s have this one sacrifice daily. Doesn’t even make sense.

Hebrews 10

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

 

[CMatt25]

Please forgive me for being so uncharitable, but I do believe that it is important to tell other people the truth. Is it wrong for people to believe in the real presence of Jesus, and why would it be?

Tommy

Tommy, no forgiveness necessary. I see you have a relatively small amt of posts. Stick around. Trust me if you thought you were being uncharitable with that, you weren’t. But irregardless I just had a Chinese fortune cookie and my fortune said, “No person is so important to make you angry”. Again not that there was a thing wrong with your post. But I’m in a pretty good mood anyway at the moment after reading that fortune so as not to allow something to get under my skin

No it’s not at all wrong for ppl to believe in the real presence of Jesus if that’s what in faith they believe the truth to be. As far as your earlier post about what is not taken literally in the Bible? A whole host of things. Just to name a few. Slavery in the Bible, women not speaking in churches, a 6 day creation with the evening and the morning being a 24 hr day, don’t have intercourse with a menstruating woman, men don’t clip the hair at your temples or trim your beard.

God bless you on your lifelong journey of faith and peace be with you.

 

[PJM]

BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHERS!

**John 6: 41-43 **“The Jews therefore murmured at him, because he had said: I am the living bread which came down from heaven. And they said: Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then saith he, I came down from heaven? Jesus therefore answered, and said to them:

What was the mindset and understanding of these Jews? it was that Jesus can’t DO THIS, because he is just a man [like you and me!] They denied God!

John 54-56 : Then Jesus said to them: ….He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.** For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.”**

And what response did the Jews take with this Teaching?

**Vs. 61 **“Many of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? [AND THEY CHOOSE TO ABANDON HIM.]”

And what did Jesus Do? He Didn’t call them back; Didn’t change His Teaching.

Instead He said: John 6: 62-63 : “But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Does this scandalize you? “If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” [In other words giving further evidence of His Divinity, now concealed in His humanity.]

**What happened next is simply ASTOUNDING! **

John 6: 64 and 65 WHICH MUST BE TAKEN TOGEATHER….

**It is the spirit that gives life: the flesh profits nothing. ]The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life…. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe” [So He explained again; God is Spirit and God is Life; He was speaking literally of Himself!; Cardinal flesh [humanity; by itself is worthless]. John.4: 23-24 **“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. “God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

Many Protestants are QUICK to cull verse 64 and rewrite the Bibles actual teaching with wrong understanding of it.

What Jesus is in FACT doing here is again rebuking the departed Jews for Lack of TRUE Faith and Understanding…. They AGAIN were thinking of Cardinal Flesh. Christ was speaking of His soon to be “glorified Body; Blood, Soul and Divinity,” NOT His cardinal body. There lack of understanding is a DIRECT connect to the SAME error in vs. 41-43.

John 6: 45 “It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God.** Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to me.” **

Matt. 7: 21-27 "Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ “**Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; [Peter; My CC] **and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it.”

2ND. Peter 1: 16-17 “For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “

**2 John 8-9 **“Anyone who is so “progressive” as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son”

Many of us Pray daily: ‘Give us this day our ‘Daily ‘ Bread”… READ Mt. 6:28-34. God tells us NOT to be anxious about what we need for our physical substance. What Christ is telling us to pray for is Spiritual food; the merited GRACE of the Sacrament of the Eucharist; a word meaning, “Thanksgiving.” The Gift of Christ Himself!

If further evudence is desired; please PM me.

God Bless, Pat

 

[Dokimas]

BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHERS!

What was the mindset and understanding of these Jews? it was that Jesus can’t DO THIS, because he is just a man [like you and me!] They denied God!

John 54-56 : Then Jesus said to them: ….He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.** For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.”**

Many have turned way not understanding what Jesus was saying. Most often they were those who followed for the wrong reasons and would not change their reason for following. Jews were not looking for a “Suffering Savior” but a conquoring one. Even His disciples didn’t understand, but they knew Jesus was different and worthy of being followed. It wasn’t until later they understood. How many times did Jesus tell them He had to die but would be raised? They didn’t understand. Yet their experiences told them to keep folowing. Jesus didn’t disappoint. He NEVER does.

 

[ClamDigger]

(I do hope that it never appears anywhere that we use Pepsi and birthday cake, as I didn’t say that)

The point he was trying to make is that you do not follow Christ’s command by eating bread and drinking wine in remembrance of him, yet you justify it by saying that as long as it is done with the Lord in mind, anything (in this case, water) can be used. So why is it okay to change the wine to water but not pepsi? Why is it okay to change the wine to water, but not change the bread to birthday cake or Oreos? I really don’t mean this disrespectfully, I am merely wondering where the limit is?

 

[flyonthewall]

You say that you are not a fundamentalist— what exactly are you?

LDS (mormon).

 

[PJM]

I mean absolutely no disrespect in asking this, so I hope my question doesn’t come off that way. I ask merely to satisfy curiosity. How does water represent the blood of Christ as well as red wine does, especially in light of the fact that he used wine at the Last Supper and not water?

To expand on this GREAT response;

Is not ignoring what Christ ACTAULLY Did [Mt. 26: 26-28; Mk. 14:22-24, lk. 22: 19-21, and Paul 1st. Cor. 11:23-29] denying TRUTH. Do “this in Memory of ME” is a MANDATE; not a mere suggestion.

God can turn Wine into His Sacreds Blood; but that in no way means that mortal man; can turn “water” into the Blood of Christ. “Really, TRULY, Substanually Present; Body, Blood, Sould and Divinity.” And that is the precise Presumation being made in this act!

EVEN if one does not [at GREAT RISK to there salvation… see my previous post] believe this reality; even as a mere sign and symbol; water falls SHORT of the mark. Water is not** “made to suffer**”; as is wine [crushed and stomped on] as was Christ in His Passion. Therefore it cannot surfice as an alternative.

Assuming one can do BETTER than God Himself is a HUGE and GRAVE Moral error!

**Matt.7: 15 **“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.***Seeming to KNOW MORE and or; Know BETTER!]” ***Matt.24: 11, 24 “And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.”

2 Tim.3 Verses 16 to 17: "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

**2 Pet.1: 20 **"First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, " 2nd. Pet.3 3, 16 “First of all you must understand this, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own passions speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.”

**NOBODY; NO-BODY is authorized to REWRITE the Bible. This is VERY DANGEROUS Moral ground! BEWARE!**God Bless,
Pat

 

[JVSantos]

The Eucharist= Real Presence.

 

[flyonthewall]

The point he was trying to make is that you do not follow Christ’s command by eating bread and drinking wine in remembrance of him, yet you justify it by saying that as long as it is done with the Lord in mind, anything (in this case, water) can be used. So why is it okay to change the wine to water but not pepsi? Why is it okay to change the wine to water, but not change the bread to birthday cake or Oreos? I really don’t mean this disrespectfully, I am merely wondering where the limit is?

I understand the point he was trying to make…I just wanted to make sure my response wasn’t used elsewhere that we are okay with using Pepsi and bday cake.
The rule is bread and water(in our faith anyway) are to be used. Fortunately, I have had no need to find out if there is a limit or not, as bread and water are readily available.
I could speculate and say there isn’t a limit, but the honest answer would be “I don’t know”.

 

[RedDawgMCM]

Amazing post Pat, your scriptural awareness is top notch

BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHERS!

**John 6: 41-43 **“The Jews therefore murmured at him, because he had said: I am the living bread which came down from heaven. And they said: Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then saith he, I came down from heaven? Jesus therefore answered, and said to them:

What was the mindset and understanding of these Jews? it was that Jesus can’t DO THIS, because he is just a man [like you and me!] They denied God!

John 54-56 : Then Jesus said to them: ….He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.** For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.”**

And what response did the Jews take with this Teaching?

**Vs. 61 **“Many of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? [AND THEY CHOOSE TO ABANDON HIM.]”

And what did Jesus Do? He Didn’t call them back; Didn’t change His Teaching.

Instead He said: John 6: 62-63 : “But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Does this scandalize you? “If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” [In other words giving further evidence of His Divinity, now concealed in His humanity.]

**What happened next is simply ASTOUNDING! **

John 6: 64 and 65 WHICH MUST BE TAKEN TOGEATHER….

**It is the spirit that gives life: the flesh profits nothing. **]The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life…

. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe” [So He explained again; God is Spirit and God is Life; He was speaking literally of Himself!; Cardinal flesh [humanity; by itself is worthless].** John.4: 23-24 **“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him. “God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

Many Protestants are QUICK to cull verse 64 and rewrite the Bibles actual teaching with wrong understanding of it.

What Jesus is in FACT doing here is again rebuking the departed Jews for Lack of TRUE Faith and Understanding…. They AGAIN were thinking of Cardinal Flesh. Christ was speaking of His soon to be “glorified Body; Blood, Soul and Divinity,” NOT His cardinal body. There lack of understanding is a DIRECT connect to the SAME error in vs. 41-43.

John 6: 45 “It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God.** Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to me.” **

Matt. 7: 21-27 "Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ “**Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock; [Peter; My CC] **and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And every one who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house upon the sand; and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell; and great was the fall of it.”

2ND. Peter 1: 16-17 “For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “

**2 John 8-9 **“Anyone who is so “progressive” as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son”

Many of us Pray daily: ‘Give us this day our ‘Daily ‘ Bread”… READ Mt. 6:28-34. God tells us NOT to be anxious about what we need for our physical substance. What Christ is telling us to pray for is Spiritual food; the merited GRACE of the Sacrament of the Eucharist; a word meaning, “Thanksgiving.” The Gift of Christ Himself!

If further evudence is desired; please PM me.

God Bless, Pat

 

[William_Pitts]

I don’t understand why John 6 continues to be used as justification for real presence since it was not even the last supper.

So was Jesus Holding a communion service when he fed the 5000 with the bread he got from the few loaves?

Seems odd that Jesus would compare the bread they just ate (which was produced by a miracle from Jesus) to Himself (and then later on reveal it to be something else that looked like bread.).

26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

Did Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross happen at the last supper as well.

Seems odd that the writer of Hebrews compares a daily sacrifice to Christ’s one sacrifice and yet (make it appear like this sacrifice happens daily?).

It’s like saying daily sacrifices can never take away sin, but this one can. So let’s have this one sacrifice daily. Doesn’t even make sense.

Hebrews 10

11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

You do not understand because you do not believe. The Gospel of John was written for christians who were already receiving the Eucharist. John’s Gospel is the most theologically developed and explains why receiving the Eucharist is important, and why the real presence is important.

 

[CMatt25]

The point he was trying to make is that you do not follow Christ’s command by eating bread and drinking wine in remembrance of him, yet you justify it by saying that as long as it is done with the Lord in mind, anything (in this case, water) can be used. So why is it okay to change the wine to water but not pepsi? Why is it okay to change the wine to water, but not change the bread to birthday cake or Oreos? I really don’t mean this disrespectfully, I am merely wondering where the limit is?

Here’s what I read Fly to say: “It is best to eliminate distractions, and Pepsi and birthday cake would be a big distraction. Me, personally, I think there would be very little limitations on what could be used.” So I just assume that perhaps Oreos even without milk could be a distraction too.

 

[ClamDigger]

I understand the point he was trying to make…I just wanted to make sure my response wasn’t used elsewhere that we are okay with using Pepsi and bday cake.
The rule is bread and water(in our faith anyway) are to be used. Fortunately, I have had no need to find out if there is a limit or not, as bread and water are readily available.
I could speculate and say there isn’t a limit, but the honest answer would be “I don’t know”.

Is there a reason for not using wine?

 

[ClamDigger]

Here’s what I read Fly to say: “It is best to eliminate distractions, and Pepsi and birthday cake would be a big distraction. Me, personally, I think there would be very little limitations on what could be used.” So I just assume that perhaps Oreos even without milk could be a distraction too.

I, personally, would be distracted as to why we were using water and not wine, but that’s just me I guess.

 

[CMatt25]

I, personally, would be distracted as to why we were using water and not wine, but that’s just me I guess.

I guess. Some folks don’t particularly like the taste of wine. I myself prefer the taste of unfermented wine/grape juice or water or Pepsi for that matter over wine. Actually I prefer Coke to Pepsi but that’s another thread. Also for some folks just a taste of wine might trigger a desire for more wine. And not sure that’s a great idea if someone were to have alcohol addiction concerns. I have that problem with Oreos and Pepsi. One Oreo is never enough. And give me a taste of Pepsi and I’ll want a whole glass!

 

[Dokimas]

Let me ask you. Do you think v. 35 should be taken literally?

Jn.6
35 And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst.

Very good question. TY.

 

[Dokimas]

Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of theb covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Luther’s Small Catechism:
*What is the benefit of such eating and drinking?

That is shown us in these words: Given, and shed for you, for the remission of sins; namely, that in the Sacrament forgiveness of sins, life, and salvation are given us through these words. For where there is forgiveness of sins, there is also life and salvation.*

Jon

Yes, that’s the reason for Jesus allowing His Body to be broken and His Blood to be shed. And we need to remember that’s what happened on the Cross. I still think we take ‘Holy Communion’ to remind us.

 

[Dokimas]

Please forgive me for being so uncharitable, but I do believe that it is important to tell other people the truth. Is it wrong for people to believe in the real presence of Jesus, and why would it be?

Tommy

There’s a difference between speaking the Truth in Love and speaking it as the pharasees did.

 

[rbarcia]

You do not understand because you do not believe. The Gospel of John was written for christians who were already receiving the Eucharist. John’s Gospel is the most theologically developed and explains why receiving the Eucharist is important, and why the real presence is important.

Although Gospel of John was written for Christians who partook in communion as a memorial service for Christ, there is nothing in John that theologically talks about real presence.

I believe Jesus Christ suffered and died for my sins and I believe He rose on the third day in fulfillment of the scriptures. I believe He is God and the Son of God.

And there is nothing in the scriptures that indicate that a piece of bread transforms into Jesus to be offered again and again like old testament lambs.

And if you want to use such uncharitable **large text to highlight ** that others are unbelievers, go right ahead

If you want to say “i don’t believe” in Jesus because I don’t believe a wafer is Jesus, feel free.

If you want to say I am some unintelligent brute who cannot understand this deep allegoric teaching of the communion, feel free.

 

[PJM]

=RedDawgMCM;7621399]Amazing post Pat, your scriptural awareness is top notch

It is a HISTORICAL FACT that “the earliest Christans” were [are] Catholics