The Eucharist: Real Presence or symbol?

[rinnie]

You are saying I don’t have the Holy Spirit?

Aren’t you saying that we can’t come together unless I understand things like you?

Yep! Not when it comes to interpretating the word of God. Scripture will tell you that itself.

Read FIrst Timothy. 4:14 Do not neglect the GIFT you have which was CONFERRED ON YOU through the prophetic word with the IMPOSITION of HANDS of the Presbyterate. That is what the CC calls Holy Orders.

THat means the teaching is passed on by word of mouth and scripture by the succession of the Apostles. Unless you are a Priest, and have had the gift passed on to you, If so I apologize.

If not you cannot interpret scripture, as the bible will tell you.

Scripture even says all scirpture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation and for correction but it also says that no Man can know the mind of God and cannot interpret scripture on their own. It is passed down.

Now if you read the bible you only have written scripture to begin with. THe bibles says remember all that have been given to you either written or word of mouth. Word of Mouth is Oral Teaching’s of the CC.

 

[HickmanJosh]

here is a link to a site if not already shared with scriptures relating to the Eucharist and what early Church Fathers said about it: scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html

 

[rinnie]

Dokimas, Hey buddy don’t feel bad, if it makes you feel any better I don’t have the gift of the Holy Spirit to define scripture either

But remember just because we don’t have the gift of the Holy Spirit to define scripture (which means we don’t have the mind of God) Remember when Jesus told the Apostles I will sent to YOU the Advocate who will give YOU the WORDS. He was wans’t speaking to us.

But my point is yes you have the Gift of the Holy Spirit (if you are baptised) it was given then, to do many gifts. But to interpret the word of God wasn’t one of them. BUt when you learn from the Church teaching’s remember the Church is the Pilar of all truth, you can teach what was learned from them.

 

[wisdomseeker]

It is not good to treat the beliefs of others lightly. I believe in the real presence and I take the words of Christ literally in John 6. Other people don’t. That is their choice and is an exercise of their free will.

What is not understood is that to many Catholics the celebration of the Eucharist is the highest form of worship. Christ commanded us to remember Him by partaking of this meal… It was the only thing He asked us to do for Him.

I am a Catholic today because of the Eucharist. I could find no other place to receive the actual body of Christ. Where could I go, what church could I join that treated the elements with such reverence? When I was in RCIA and we toured the Church and I saw the tabernacle and realized that the body of Christ was there I was filled with emotion. When I was in the hospital before I was received into the Church, the Eucharistic ministers would come by and would ask if I wanted to receive communion I would have to tell them, “not today”. I would be upset for a while. After I was received into the Church I was overwhelmed when I could receive the body and blood of my Savior. MY SAVIOR. When I believed that the bread and wine was His Body and Blood I really *understood * the significance of the Eucharist. And the Holy Spirit bore witness to my spirit of the truth.

The early Church understood it this way.
“You will see the Levites bringing the loaves and a cup of wine, and placing them on the table. So long as the prayers and invocations have not yet been made,it is mere bread and a mere cup. But when the great and wonderous prayers have been recited, then the bread becomes the body and the cup the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ…When the great prayers and holy supplications are sent up, the Word descends on the bread and the cup, and it becomes His body.” Athanasius,Sermon to the Newly Baptized,PG 26,1325(ante A.D. 373),in ECD,442

You may believe what you will. May you be blessed.

I know that the Eucharist is directly connected with the CC, that is why so many close their eyes to the Eucharist. They know that if they come to believe in the Eucharist they will have to believe in teh CC. That is too much for them to bare.

 

[rinnie]

I know that the Eucharist is directly connected with the CC, that is why so many close their eyes to the Eucharist. They know that if they come to believe in the Eucharist they will have to believe in teh CC. That is too much for them to bare.

I honestly believe this in my heart also. I can also understand how hard this would be on them also. Because its hard to close you eyes to the truth, but its also hard to let go of your whole life of Religious teaching.:sad_yes:

 

[Dokimas]

Yep! Not when it comes to interpretating the word of God. Scripture will tell you that itself.

Read FIrst Timothy. 4:14 Do not neglect the GIFT you have which was CONFERRED ON YOU through the prophetic word with the IMPOSITION of HANDS of the Presbyterate. That is what the CC calls Holy Orders.

THat means the teaching is passed on by word of mouth and scripture by the succession of the Apostles. Unless you are a Priest, and have had the gift passed on to you, If so I apologize.

If not you cannot interpret scripture, as the bible will tell you.

Scripture even says all scirpture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for refutation and for correction but it also says that no Man can know the mind of God and cannot interpret scripture on their own. It is passed down.

Now if you read the bible you only have written scripture to begin with. THe bibles says remember all that have been given to you either written or word of mouth. Word of Mouth is Oral Teaching’s of the CC.

Thanks for clarifying your understanding.

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas, Hey buddy don’t feel bad, if it makes you feel any better I don’t have the gift of the Holy Spirit to define scripture either

But remember just because we don’t have the gift of the Holy Spirit to define scripture (which means we don’t have the mind of God) Remember when Jesus told the Apostles I will sent to YOU the Advocate who will give YOU the WORDS. He was wans’t speaking to us.

But my point is yes you have the Gift of the Holy Spirit (if you are baptised) it was given then, to do many gifts. But to interpret the word of God wasn’t one of them. BUt when you learn from the Church teaching’s remember the Church is the Pilar of all truth, you can teach what was learned from them.

I don’t fell bad at all. I have a long way to grow but I’m reasonably confident in what I believe.

We have quite different understandings, mine are not based on ritualistic things but on relationship.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I honestly believe this in my heart also. I can also understand how hard this would be on them also. Because its hard to close you eyes to the truth, but its also hard to let go of your whole life of Religious teaching.:sad_yes:

Think about for a moment. That is why our Lord has found only One Church, so, so many would not have different believes about what He said. He wants us to believe only on the Truth and not some fantasy interpretation of His Word. He also wants to know the Truth to be protected. That is why He gave the HS to His Church to make sure she only teaches the Truth. She has been defending the same truth for 2000 yrs while so many come along trying to take the people away with lies and fancies words about God. But our Lord said, that many would come in His name and deceive many. I think we can attest to this Truth since we have so many teaching in His name not really knowing if they know what Truth is. The CC has authority as the Kingdom of God should have authority over the nations. it is up to us to follow what ST Augustine declares, “I only hear about Sacred Scriptures if it is thought by the Catholic Church.” We know that at his times there was also many teaching in Jesus name, but he knew all to be false. So, it is in our days. I dont know of any other people to be more tempted than Catholics. Us Catholics face many false teachings every day. All have one thing in mind to take us from the Holy Church. I would say that we should use seat belts attached to the Church. The devil wouldnt want us in the Holy Church, would he? I dont think so. Our Lord sent His Church to convert everybody and not others to convert Catholics. Peace of our Lord Jesus, the Christ.

 

[elvisman]

I don’t fell bad at all. I have a long way to grow but I’m reasonably confident in what I believe.

We have quite different understandings, mine are not based on ritualistic things but on relationship.

Really? So you don’tbelive in rituals like baptisms, infant dedications, weddings, funderals and the like?

Something tells me that you do - and that would make you “ritualistic” . . .**

 

[Richard_Kastner]

originally posted by Richard Kastner
Jesus is taking the IDEA of bread or real hunger and thirst and transfering the meaning to the spiritual realm. In other words showing the people that followed Him, were following for the wrong reasons. That instead of following Him to satisfy their physical hunger, they should be following to satisfy a spiritual “hunger and thirst”. Do you think that this is a fair appraisal?

Jn.6:35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

I can give you this Richard. But it is still the actual body and blood of Christ that the physical bread becomes. It is food for our soul. That is why it gives us eternal life in Christ.

You can give me this? What I was pointing out was that Jesus was talking symbolically here. I mean Jesus was not saying that He was really bread here was He? Well what was He saying? He says “he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.” So eating the bread of life in this context is comming to the Lord and **believing **So how do we do that? Well Jesus says Jn.6:63b the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. So Jesus says that the way we eat His body and drink His blood is to BELEIVE the words He says.

 

[wisdomseeker]

You can give me this? What I was pointing out was that Jesus was talking symbolically here. I mean Jesus was not saying that He was really bread here was He? Well what was He saying? He says “he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.” So eating the bread of life in this context is comming to the Lord and **believing **So how do we do that? Well Jesus says Jn.6:63b the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. So Jesus says that the way we eat His body and drink His blood is to BELEIVE the words He says.

Yes, Jesus wants you to believe Him. So, do you believe in teh Eucharist? Jesus says, “for my flesh is food indeed and My blood is drink indeed.” Do you believe Him or not?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Iam amazed how non catholic Christians have removed themselves so far from the apostolic teachings to invent ones own understanding and belief system outside of the apostolic biblical practices.

It would appear by today’s non catholic christian own interpretations, reveals the protestant reformation took them further away from the revelations of God and biblical teachings, interpretations, and practices for mans own interpretations to believe from ones own freedom to believe, and not what Jesus revealed and commissioned His Church to do…

Quote by 1st. century, St. Ignatius of Antioch; (Shun schisms, as the source of troubles.) "Let all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ did the Father, and the priests, as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacon as you would the command of God. Apart for the bishop, let no one perform any of the functions that pertain to the Church. Let that Eucharist be held valid which is offered by the bishop or by one to whom the bishop has committed this charge. Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be: as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. **It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. **On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid.

Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Chap. 8

 

[Dokimas]

Really? So you don’tbelive in rituals like baptisms, infant dedications, weddings, funderals and the like?

Something tells me that you do** - and that would make you “ritualistic” . . .

Come now. Discussing with you gets no where. You only seem to want to attack what you don’t want to understand.

What I believe is that the rituals do NOTHING. It’s the obedience they represent that is everything.

Ritual is like an idol.

The idol can do nothing as Elijah showed the prophets of Baal.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Iam amazed how non catholic Christians have removed themselves so far from the apostolic teachings to invent ones own understanding and belief system outside of the apostolic biblical practices.

It would appear by today’s non catholic christian own interpretations, reveals the protestant reformation took them further away from the revelations of God and biblical teachings, interpretations, and practices for mans own interpretations to believe from ones own freedom to believe, and not what Jesus revealed and commissioned His Church to do…

Quote by 1st. century, St. Ignatius of Antioch; (Shun schisms, as the source of troubles.) "Let all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ did the Father, and the priests, as you would the Apostles. Reverence the deacon as you would the command of God. Apart for the bishop, let no one perform any of the functions that pertain to the Church. Let that Eucharist be held valid which is offered by the bishop or by one to whom the bishop has committed this charge. Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be: as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. **It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. **On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid.

Letter to the Smyrnaeans, Chap. 8

And nothing has changed since then. It still apply to today this command. Thank you.
The Smyrnaeans probably were trying to do things their way when this letter was sent to them. I dont no why we have become so acceptive of things that are not from God now and days. Rebellious people always existed but they were stopped. Today, rebellious men seem to have a great amount of freedom to do whatever they want without condemnation, that is why they seem to be growing everywhere. Where are those who were commanded to protect the Truth?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Come now. Discussing with you gets no where. You only seem to want to attack what you don’t want to understand.

What I believe is that the rituals do NOTHING. It’s the obedience they represent that is everything.

Ritual is like an idol.

The idol can do nothing as Elijah showed the prophets of Baal.

Would say that the rituals performed by the Israelites were from God? if they were, would you still say that they are worthless?

 

[roselily7931]

If you saw Jesus hanging on the cross after he died, would you go up to him and drink his blood and eat is flesh?

 

[wisdomseeker]

If you saw Jesus hanging on the cross after he died, would you go up to him and drink his blood and eat is flesh?

Can you explain what you just said?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Yes, Jesus wants you to believe Him. So, do you believe in teh Eucharist? Jesus says, “for my flesh is food indeed and My blood is drink indeed.” Do you believe Him or not?

Yes, I do.

Jn.1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This is the flesh we eat and beleive to gain eternal life.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Yes, I do.

Jn.1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

This is the flesh we eat and beleive to gain eternal life.

And do you claim to know more about Sacred Scriptures than the Holy Catholic Church?

Tell me can you show me what Christians believed back 2000 yrs? anyone who supports what you believe today?

 

[Dokimas]

Would say that the rituals performed by the Israelites were from God? if they were, would you still say that they are worthless?

The OT rituals foreshaddowed the coming of Jesus. In and of themselves, they did nothing or God would not have done away with the Old Covenant replacing it with the New.