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JVSantos
Guest
True presence!
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panevino
Guest
Is it your opinion that catholic doctrine is ritual without relationship?
The ritual on the night of original Passover is quite biblical and certainly Effected something for those who did it. Ie save life of thier child.
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hxcCatholic413
Guest
I saw your first post…that you don’t believe in the real presence…indeed it is in the Bible!
MATTHEW 26:26 “And whilst they were at supper, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke: and gave to his disciples, and said: Take ye, and eat. This is my body. [27] And taking the chalice, he gave thanks, and gave to them, saying: Drink ye all of this. [28] For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.”
Remember: Jesus says, this IS my body and blood. Jesus does not say, this is a symbol of my body and blood
This link will help you: scripturecatholic.com/the_eucharist.html#eucharist-IIb
God Bless!
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wisdomseeker
Guest
Right. I would say they did something since God gave them as such and everything that God gives is worth everything. Now we have new ones. We as Catholics know that God has given us new Rituals to celebrate the life, death and resurrection of Christ. New Rituals as we wait for his coming again. In the Old, the Jews celebrated the Passover, today we celebrate the Passover in teh Eucharist. In the Old they had circuncision. Today, we have the Baptism, these are all Rituals given to us by God, and so forth. As you see New Ones prevailed. Of course, I cannot expect you to know this since you are not a Catholic, you wouldnt have way of knowing.
Have you ever heard this?
Code:
Tantum ergo SacramentumEt antiquum documentum
Novo cedat ritui:
Praestet fides supplementum
Sensuum defectui.
Genitori, Genitoque
Laus et iubilatio,
Salus, honor, virtus quoque
Sit et benedictio:
Procedenti ab utroque
Compar sit laudatio.
Amen.
Down in adoration falling,
Lo! the sacred Host we hail,
Lo! o’er ancient forms departing
Newer rites of grace prevail;
Faith for all defects supplying,
Where the feeble senses fail.
To the everlasting Father,
And the Son Who reigns on high
With the Holy Spirit proceeding
Forth from each eternally,
Be salvation, honor blessing,
Might and endless majesty. Amen.
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elvisman
Guest
The ritual - in and of itself - does nothing.
BUT - God, knowing that we are physical beings, gave us rituals so that we could relate. My point is that he NEVER abolished rituals. He simply changed them.
A ritual is not like an idol - it may be like an icon - but nbot an idol. An idol is an evil thing, because it is worshipped. An icon, on the other hand is a reminder of something. Do NOT confuse the two . . .
If anybody truly believes that rituals were abolished in the New Covenant - they neither understand the Gospel nor the will of God.
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Dokimas
Guest
Our physical part is the small part of us. Ask Anne Johnson Flint (when you get to Heaven where she is right now.) Google her and read her story.
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joe370
Guest
Dok, what’s wrong with ceremonies or rites used in a place of worship? They don’t defocus from Jesus; they focus on Jesus Christ.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
They are busy being persecuted for the apostolic faith and defending the apostolic faith. They are easy to spot around the world, because they walk around with a flame looking hat upon their heads and their vestments have not changed since apostolic times. These are very peculiar defenders of the apostolic faith.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
What ever happened to God said it, and I believe it? Jesus himself commands His disciples to practice His rituals;
Luke 22:17
Then he took a cup, 6** gave thanks, and said, **“Take this and share it among yourselves;
18
for I tell you (that) from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
19
7 Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; **do this in memory of me.” **
Matthew 28:18
11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19
**Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them **in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
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teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”
John 20:21
14 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22
15 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
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16 **Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” **
Acts 2:42
8 They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers.
Hebrews 10:25
We should not stay away from our assembly, 13 as is the custom of some
Jesus raised Marriage between man and a woman to a sacrament. Marriage itself is performed by a rite (ritual) protected by God, because what God has joined together “let no man put asunder”, this marriage rite is raised to a sacrament because God has infused His Love sacramentally in the marriage rite between a man and a woman.
Peace be with you
Luke 22:17
Then he took a cup, 6** gave thanks, and said, **“Take this and share it among yourselves;
18
for I tell you (that) from this time on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
19
7 Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; **do this in memory of me.” **
Matthew 28:18
11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19
**Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them **in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”
John 20:21
14 (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22
15 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit.
23
16 **Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.” **
Acts 2:42
8 They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles and to the communal life, to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers.
Hebrews 10:25
We should not stay away from our assembly, 13 as is the custom of some
Jesus raised Marriage between man and a woman to a sacrament. Marriage itself is performed by a rite (ritual) protected by God, because what God has joined together “let no man put asunder”, this marriage rite is raised to a sacrament because God has infused His Love sacramentally in the marriage rite between a man and a woman.
Peace be with you
Dok, what’s wrong with ceremonies or rites used in a place of worship? They don’t defocus from Jesus; they focus on Jesus Christ.
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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
Is there any question? Real Presence. Seems that He was pretty clear.
Interesting that as far back as the Nicene Creed…there was no argument about that. Even Luther didn’t deny the Real Presence.
How people got so far away from it I have no idea:shrug:
Interesting that as far back as the Nicene Creed…there was no argument about that. Even Luther didn’t deny the Real Presence.
How people got so far away from it I have no idea:shrug:
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Cinette
Guest
Oh maaan!:whacky::whacky:
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wisdomseeker
Guest
I
I understand that pride makes a man act in rebellious. they dont like authority over them. The Church represents authority and some will never go for that. they like to walk around representing that authority themselves. Martin luther was a rebellious man and that is what he passed on to his followers.
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rinnie
Guest
Yes Richard he was. As I asked before if he was just telling everyone that he was just a symbol why would they call him MAD for that. Why would they walk away for that??
And you are not correct, believing in Christ is not the same as receiving his actual Bread and wine, if this were true, then why do we receive ACTUAL bread and wine, IT is not a mere SYMBOL it is LIVING bread from Heaven.
IF that were true and the bread was a symbol why would Jesus say EAT this, and DRINK this??? Can you eat a mere symbol, or dirnk a symbol???
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rinnie
Guest
Well look at the reaction when he was teaching it, was it accepted, was it understood, did many walk away? No, THey understood THAT teaching also, but accepted it.
Why did others not walk away from that one then, and walk away from his teaching of the Eucharist then, why did they not call him MAD for that one then? Unless as I explained they understood that teaching also. BUt they accepted that one, they did not walk away on that one.
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rinnie
Guest
Well let me ask you this Matt do you believe that Jesus was both Human and divine? Do you beliieve that he had the power from heaven to do what he did on this earth?
Okay then, if you believe that Jesus was the Son of God who became Man (human) and did have the power to do what he claimed, then how can you REJECT this power he gave to his Apostles,
You answer this question and I will qive up the Catholic belief.
When Jesus said to his Apostles what God has given me, I now give to YOU, Go and spead the good news, Baptise, forgive sin, Take this bread and wine DO THIS etc.
Now do you believe that Jesus had the power to extend his power, or was his power false.
IF his power was false, I can understand you saying he cannot extend this power to his Disciples, if you claim you believe in this power, then how can you reject it when he gave it to his Disciples. Do you not think Jesus had his reasons for becoming human also???
So my question is simple, Did Jesus have the authority to forgive sins, cure the sick, etc as a HUMAN? Was Jesus Christ fully HUMAN as us, Did he have power from Heaven? IF you agree how can the power he extended to his Apostles be false then, Would that not make Jesus a liar???
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rinnie
Guest
What are you talking about Matt? And my answer is yes, a closet gay priest is quite biblical is, it is called a SIN. ANd what about a Priest that sins and covers it up, that would also be called a sin. What is a Priest called that promises to Love Christ, and teach his word and then fall from grace, and chooses sin, Simple, check out History, the word is a JUDAS, a betrayer of Christ.
What are you driving at now? Are you trying to say that because a Priest falls from grace and chooses sin over God’s work makes the truth he is teaching false? Then what about the truth that CHrist taught then?? DId because Judas betray Christ make the truth Christ teaches false also then, Because then, it is the same thing.
What is the difference between a Priest falling to sin, and Judas falling to sin? Did they both not betray God?
Tell me Matt, do you not think that Jesus knew Judas would betray him??? Do you not think that Jesus knew that a Priest would also betray him? Why do you think that Jesus warned us that the devil was the Master of DISQUISE in HIS own clothing?
And are you trying to say that if a Priest falls from grace and chooses sin over God as Judas did, Man can bring down the CC? Because if you feel that a mere Priest can bring down the CC, then you are saying that the devil can beat Christ! IS that what you are saying, because you sure implied it.
When someone says that the CC was reformed, who reformed it then? IT has to be Man, because the Holy Spirit is who guides the CC, Jesus promised us that, IF the CC is reformed it has to be by Man then, Not God. God did not promise us to reform the CHurch, he promised us he would be with it always, until the end of time.
So what are you saying Matt?
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wisdomseeker
Guest
Matt thinks that if one believes than it must be true. Relativism at best. Just because somebody says they have the Holy Spirit, it doesnt mean it is true. they have been told they do and they simply believed. But we know that the HS would not lead anyone from God’s Church. that is how we know they dont have it. If the CC is right about the Eucharist then any contrary to that, it is not from the HS. The Father, the Son and the HS are not in contradiction with one another, that we know for sure. Thanks be to God there is a wrong and a right. I think people, now and days are very confused about the Truth. They can no longer identify it. Today, it is all about emotionalism friendship. it is all about being friends, forget about defending the Truth. We Catholics are called to be defenders of the Truth, the Faith, and not to seek friendship. Many of us have become cowards and no longer care about what is True.
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rinnie
Guest
Oh Matt, then you are in big trouble my friend, I can see why you are so confused. You see that is why we as Catholic’s have not doubt in what we are taught because we believe this ONE simple sentence.Hi Denise, I’ve posted more than once we may have to agree to disagree and let it go. But while I won’t name names certain posters more than others keep following me around it seems and bringing it up everywhere I go! I simply can not believe that anyone’s faith, not just Catholics, can be proclaimed to be for certain the truth. Well it can be proclaimedbut to truly know with absolute 100% certainty is another thing I believe. Here we are on the non Catholic forum but yup many here stand up very well for what they believe!
Our Lords great command was FOLLOW ME!! He called others to himself. By that simple sentence he introduced to the world that man should have charge over man.
He who is God would teach and redeem and sanctify through a Human Nature which he had taken from his Mother Mary.
And he worked through this human nature here, and continues to work through the human nature through his Apostles, not angels, but he would place his power in the hands of Human beings. his Apostles.
He said to them Follow Me, His Apostles, they were called to be the light of the world, salt of the earth, the city that could not be hid.
Can you not see that it was evident from the Beginning. He INTENED to PROLONG his teaching, and his Reigh, and his very life unto the world. That he would comminicate through certain powers that he brought with him to this earth.
That this teaching would continue through Certain Humans to be given to us??
Tell me Matt what was the purpose of the Apsotles if not to teach the truth? I mean really, why waste the whole N.T on teaching them???
And wny would he teach these same Apostles that the Bread of Life is indeed the true body of Christ, and that if you do not EAT and DRINK this you have no life in you!
And if we can not believe this truth 100% and do not believe 100% that these simple words The Advocate the Holy Spirit will lead you to all truth, until the end of age, then what do we have???
Its really pretty simple, as the scripture itself teaches, you are either hot or cold, there is not lukewarm in our faith for Christ.
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rinnie
Guest
It started when they felt that they could believe what THEY wanted to believe. When they decided that they all had the truth in Them!
It no longer became listen to the teachings of the Early Fathers of the Church, it became you have your own truth. People left the Church the Pilar of all truth, and made up their own truth.
They no longer were taught, they take scriture and claim to have the Holy Spirit to teach themself their own truth, They make the Holy Spirit out to be a liar, because by saying you have the Power of the Holy Spirit, and then turn around and have 2 different truths cannot be possible.
Either the Church is the Pilar of all truth and led by the Holy Spirit and Christ is correct, or they are right and we have no Holy Spirit of truth. Because if the Church is correct we must all have the ONE truth, the same truth. OR they are right and there is many truths and the Holy Spirit divides us.
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elvisman
Guest
Was she canonized a saint by the Catholic Church? If not - we don’t know whether she made it to heaven. We can hope and pray that she did.
As for our physical self being small - it is what we DO with our physicality, along with our spirituality that determines where we will spend eternity. If I were you - I would not underestimate the importance of the physical because God doesn’t (Matt. 25:31-46).
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