The Eucharist - Real Presence or Symbolic?

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If you are a “Catholic” then you need to be as the Church teaches, not as the Lutherns are taught or anyone else.

If a person needs more convincing about the Real Presence read the Book: EUCHARISTIC MIRACLES by Joan Carroll Cruz…

nuff said…
Blessings,
Joanie
 
Louis Mazar:
I am a Catholic who believes like the Lutherans do about the Holy Eucharist.
You believe that the Real Presence of Christ leaves the elements after the Celebration has ended?
 
mercygate,

If the Lutherans believe that the Real Presence of Christ leaves the elements after the celebration has ended then yes I believe that because I believe exactly like the Lutherans do about the Holy Eucharist.
 
Louis Mazar:
mercygate,

If the Lutherans believe that the Real Presence of Christ leaves the elements after the celebration has ended then yes I believe that because I believe exactly like the Lutherans do about the Holy Eucharist.
Why?
 
mercygate,

I believe like the Lutherans do about the Holy Eucharist because the Lutheran belief about the Holy Eucharist is much more biblical then the Catholic belief about the Holy Eucharist is.
 
JimG,

I do not want to become a Lutheran because the Lutherans do not have Saturday Vigil Services. The reason that I am remaining Catholic is because I like to go to Saturday Vigil Mass instead of Sunday Morning Mass so that I can do other things on Sunday like laying around the house all morning until going out to lunch and shopping. The only time that I go to Sunday Morning Mass is on Easter Sunday, when Christmas falls on a Saturday and when I am doing something on Saturday that I can not get out of.
 
Louis Mazar:
I believe like the Lutherans do about the Holy Eucharist because the Lutheran belief about the Holy Eucharist is much more biblical then the Catholic belief about the Holy Eucharist is.
How so? I don’t see ANY biblical evidence that the Real Presence “disappears” after any length of time.
 
Louis Mazar:
mercygate,

I believe like the Lutherans do about the Holy Eucharist because the Lutheran belief about the Holy Eucharist is much more biblical then the Catholic belief about the Holy Eucharist is.
I would be interested to know how you arrive at that conclusion. In my understanding the “how” of Christ’s presence is not spelled out in Scripture. Certainly the early Church understood the presence to remain after the service was over, since it was carried to the homes of those who could not attend the assembly.
 
Louis Mazar:
JimG,

I do not want to become a Lutheran because the Lutherans do not have Saturday Vigil Services. The reason that I am remaining Catholic is because I like to go to Saturday Vigil Mass instead of Sunday Morning Mass so that I can do other things on Sunday like laying around the house all morning until going out to lunch and shopping. The only time that I go to Sunday Morning Mass is on Easter Sunday, when Christmas falls on a Saturday and when I am doing something on Saturday that I can not get out of.
OK, Louis. You’re joshin’ on us here, right?
 
Louis Mazar:
JimG,
I do not want to become a Lutheran because the Lutherans do not have Saturday Vigil Services. The reason that I am remaining Catholic is because I like to go to Saturday Vigil Mass instead of Sunday Morning Mass so that I can do other things on Sunday like laying around the house all morning until going out to lunch and shopping.
Well, that explains it.
 
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Eden:
This is a carry-over of the topic on April’s thread. Let’s discuss the Real Presence in the Eucharist and Protestant challenges to it…

“Real Presence” is not an accurate name for it; in fact, I think that name is good Lutheranism 🙂

In Catholic dogma, the Eucharistic Presence of Christ is real, true, and substantial, and permanent.

A substantial presence may or may not be symbolic - as the Eucharistic Presence of Christ is Divine Presence “in the mode of a sacrament”, this presence is symbolic as well as substantial; because a sacrament is, like a symbol, a species of sign - a sign being, an entity denoting another entity. So the Eucharist is not purely symbolic - but it is symbolic. ##
 
mercygate,

No. I meant it when I stated that I am remaining Catholic because the Lutherans do not have Saturday Vigil Services and I like to go to Saturday Vigil Mass instead of Sunday Morning Mass so that I can do other things on Sundays like going out ot lunch and shopping.
 
Louis Mazar:
mercygate,

No. I meant it when I stated that I am remaining Catholic because the Lutherans do not have Saturday Vigil Services and I like to go to Saturday Vigil Mass instead of Sunday Morning Mass so that I can do other things on Sundays like going out ot lunch and shopping.
If that is the only reason you remain in the Catholic Church, then perhaps it is time for some extra prayer and reflection.
 
Louis Mazar:
mercygate,

No. I meant it when I stated that I am remaining Catholic because the Lutherans do not have Saturday Vigil Services and I like to go to Saturday Vigil Mass instead of Sunday Morning Mass so that I can do other things on Sundays like going out ot lunch and shopping.
Hm. What puzzled me initially is that you said you believed exactly as Lutherans believe because it was more biblical, but you didn’t know what they believed.

I invite you to explore the faith of the Church you are in. It might scare you to death but it will be an adventure worthy of the name!
 
I think the tradition of the Eucharist as held by the Catholic faith is fine, whether it’s real or not we aren’t saved by eating it - we are saved by His death on the cross and our faith in Him.

Salvation + Faith = Works

not

Works + Faith = Salvation
 
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JimG:
Don’t take my word as certain on this, but if I recall correctly from my reading, Catholic teaching really is that, as Jesus states in the words of institution, the bread is transformed into his body and the wine into his blood.

But, in the Eucharist, we receive the living Christ, not a dead Christ. Consequently, where is body his, so also is his blood, as well as his soul and divinity. Where his blood is, so also is his body, soul, and divinity. This presence of the entire Christ in either species is known as a presence by concomitance.

Consequently, the Church has always believed that in receiving under either species, we receive the whole and living Christ.

It is also sometimes misunderstood that Christ “takes on” the appearances of bread and wine. He doesn’t. The substance of the bread (and wine) is gone. The appearances remain, but they do not inhere in any substance–not even in the body of Christ, who is present in his totality hidden beneath those appearances.
This is very interesting. So the bread that I think I see, smell, taste and touch really isn’t there and just the “accidents” remain? And Jesus who I do not apprehend as being “there” really is “there”?

So where has the bread “gone to”?

There are several references to Eucharistic miracles on this thread. These also raise an interesting question; if the transubstantiation of bread and wine into the actual, though unseen, Body and Blood of Christ represent a ‘miracle’, how is it that the “Non-transubstantiation” of the bread and wine also represents a miracle as well?

This should be good.
 
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RyanL:
Vox did a great job of presenting a case, but if I could I would like to tack a quick thing on about the “context provided in John’s Gospel”. The context of the Last Supper was Passover. A very important part of Passover is eating the sacrificial lamb. If you don’t see that it’s important, re-read Exo 12! Specific instructions are given (including eating with unleavened bread - hmmph!) as to how you may and how you may not eat the lamb. In Revelations (as well as other books), Jesus is called Lamb some 28 times in 22 chapters. Any significance?

To read more of how the Bible predicted the Eucharist, please visit the thread I linked earlier…I spent a little bit of time on it, and I think it’s pretty good…

Peace,
RyanL
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Scott Hahn makes an interesting point in his book “Supper of the Lamb”

This is not a direct quote, but he points out that, during Passover, the Jewish people had to eat the actual lamb and drink wine, they couldn’t eat a lamb shaped cookie because they didnt’ like lamb meat or drink freshly squeezed grapes and say “Sorry, I dont’ like wine…”

When we participate in Communion, the bread has the appearance of bread and wine, but the eucharist is the actual Lamb of God, not a lamb- shaped cookie that symbolizes the body, but the actual body.

I say, There have been great miracles concerning the Eucharist. For the Catholic we don’t need every host to have scientific evidence of heart tissue, etc. We don’t need proof to believe. We trust that the Lord, Jesus has the words of Eternal life, where else shall we go but to follow Him? What were those words of eternal life?. Unless you eat his body and drink His blood you shall not have life within you. Many thought his words were too hard to believe and quit following Him, they turned away. Jesus didn’t stop them and say “Hey, wait, don’t leave me… it is only a symbol.” No, he let them leave because they refused to believe. Jesus would not have allowed His followers to leave and discontinue following them unless he meant what he said.

I believe that during the consecration the bread and wine become the body and blood of Our Savior Jesus Christ, because that is the way he wanted to touch us. It looks and tastes like bread and wine,(except those rare and powerful miracles where we are given human proof) but the Eucharist IS Jesus, it was all a part of the beautiful plan for our salvation.

The Jewish people, under the old covenant laws were not permitted to eat animal blood because the ancient people’s held common beliefs that to drink an animal’s blood was to drink it’s life force, that the blood would become a part of the person’s life force, many ancient religions held practices such as this in sacrifices to their gods etc. God used this ancient human belief in His plan for Salvation. This was the reason for draining the altar sacrifices etc. The Jewish people were God’s chosen people, they were not permitted to drink animal blood. This is one of the reasons why the teachings of Jesus that His followers should drink His blood and eat His body, were so objectional to the Jewish people. The 12 who continued to follow Him, didnt’ understand that Jesus would give them the Sacrament of the Eucharist and that he would present Himself under the humble* appearance*of Bread and wine. The appearance remains, but the bread and wine no longer exist, althought they generally (except in rare miracles) appear and taste like bread and wine. Only the living Christ exists in the sacrament.

Jesus was born in Bethlehem (name meaning “house of bread”) and was laid in a feed box in a manger. He was the bread of life. He was the perfect unblemished Lamb of God. He is the Good Shepherd and He feeds His lambs. He gave us the plan, we just need to trust Him and follow it exactly the way he showed His Disciples. He was very specific regarding this teaching, and allowed people who refused to believe to walk away. A good Shepherd would have gone after them if it had only been a misunderstanding.

I refuse to turn my back on the Body of Christ.
 
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EA_Man:
This is very interesting. So the bread that I think I see, smell, taste and touch really isn’t there and just the “accidents” remain? And Jesus who I do not apprehend as being “there” really is “there”?

So where has the bread “gone to”?
If you believe in the virgin birth, Jesus’ miraculous healings, The resurrection, the Ascencion, etc., etc., etc., this should be no problem for you. :yup:
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EA_Man:
if the transubstantiation of bread and wine into the actual, though unseen, Body and Blood of Christ represent a ‘miracle’, how is it that the “Non-transubstantiation” of the bread and wine also represents a miracle as well?
What do you mean by “Non-transubstantiation”? :confused: I am not aware of any Eucharistic miracles where the bread and wine have not already been consecrated.
 
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