The Eucharist

  • Thread starter Thread starter The_Way
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

The_Way

Guest
From my understanding many Protestants have great respect for St Augustine even though he believed the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ e.g.

“That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Through that bread and wine the Lord Christ willed to commend HIS BODY AND BLOOD, WHICH HE POURED OUT FOR US UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.” (Sermons 227)

Why do many Protestants follow the teachings of St Augustine yet deny the Eucharist?

God bless,
 
The_Way said:
From my understanding many Protestants have great respect for St Augustine even though he believed the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ e.g.

“That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Through that bread and wine the Lord Christ willed to commend HIS BODY AND BLOOD, WHICH HE POURED OUT FOR US UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.” (Sermons 227)

Why do many Protestants follow the teachings of St Augustine yet deny the Eucharist?

God bless,
Click to expand...
Well for those Protestants you are speaking of, could Augustine also have spoken about Christ having descended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God? Did he say anything about not taking everything literally if it contradicts science and reason? Maybe some don’t even think the ECF’s were correct on everything. 🤷 God bless us all!
 
CMatt25 said:
Maybe some don’t even think the ECF’s were correct on everything. 🤷 God bless us all!
Click to expand...
Sorry, but did you mean to say “maybe some don’t even think the ECF’s were correct on ANYthing?” 😉
 
The_Way said:
Why do many Protestants follow the teachings of St Augustine yet deny the Eucharist?
Click to expand...
In my multitude of conversations with Protestants who have an affinity for Augustine, they would simply say they like his writings to the extent his writings conform to and reflect Scripture (i.e. their understanding of Scripture :o)
 
The_Way said:
Why do many Protestants follow the teachings of St Augustine
Click to expand...
Most, in my experience, do not make any real effort to follow the teachings of St. Augustine.
MarcoPolo said:
In my multitude of conversations with Protestants who have an affinity for Augustine, they would simply say they like his writings to the extent his writings conform to and reflect Scripture (i.e. their understanding of Scripture :o)
Click to expand...
Emphasis added.

Other passages from St. Augustine regarding the Blessed Sacrament:
Christ was carried in His Own hands when, referring to His Own body, He said, “This is My body.” For He carried that body in His hands (Explanations of the Psalms 33, 1, 10).
Click to expand...
[Jesus] received earth from earth; because flesh is from the earth, and He took flesh from the flesh of Mary. He walked here in the same flesh, and gave us the same flesh to be eaten unto salvation. But no one eats that flesh unless he first adores it… and not only do we not sin by adoring [His flesh], we do sin by not adoring (Explanations of the Psalms 98, 9).
Click to expand...
The faithful know what I am saying. They know Christ in the breaking of the bread. For not all bread, but only that which receives the blessing of Christ, becomes Christ’s body (Sermons 234, 2).
Click to expand...
The middle passage, saying that Christians are required to worship the Eucharist with adoration, rules out the idea that St. Augustine is merely speaking figuratively.
 
The_Way said:
From my understanding many Protestants have great respect for St Augustine even though he believed the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ e.g.

“That Bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, IS THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. Through that bread and wine the Lord Christ willed to commend HIS BODY AND BLOOD, WHICH HE POURED OUT FOR US UNTO THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.” (Sermons 227)

Why do many Protestants follow the teachings of St Augustine yet deny the Eucharist?

God bless,
Click to expand...
It’s very easy to cherry pick comments from Augustine to support your claim. Have you ever read Augustine’s comments on John chapter 6?? Augustine stated that Christ was speaking figuratively and not literally when referencing the consumption of His body and blood. If you understand Augustine’s writing style the comments made above don’t refer to transubstantiation. When Augustine writes that Christ commended his body and blood to the bread and wine he means that the bread and wine are now representative of Christ’s body and blood. Not that they literally are His body and blood.
 
NDfan said:
It’s very easy to cherry pick comments from Augustine to support your claim. Have you ever read Augustine’s comments on John chapter 6?? Augustine stated that Christ was speaking figuratively and not literally when referencing the consumption of His body and blood.
Click to expand...
the OP provided a reference to point us in the general direction. Do you have one?
 
NDfan said:
If you understand Augustine’s writing style the comments made above don’t refer to transubstantiation.
Click to expand...
Your interpretation is implausible. If St. Augustine did not believe the Eucharist is Jesus, then he’s promoting idolatry. Since those are the only two options, I’m going with “St. Augustine was Catholic” rather than “St. Augustine was pagan.” :rolleyes:
 
Stephen168 said:
the OP provided a reference to point us in the general direction. Do you have one?
Click to expand...
Yes taken directly from Augustine’s sermon on John Chapter 6. Tractate 25, 26 and 27. If you read it carefully Augustine explains that to eat flesh and blood implies a belief in Christ so that He may abide in You and you in Him. He speaks to the fact that the Jews cannot get past the literal eating of flesh and blood because Jesus had already fed them loaves of bread and then continually compares Himself to the manna that came down from heaven. He further questions why they would be preparing their teeth and stomach to eat flesh and blood when Christ commands that if thou believe thou hast eaten already. I’d be happy to cut and paste from the Tractate but it’s rather lengthy.

The implication of switching from believing in the first part of John 6 to that of eating flesh and blood later according to Augustine is to emphasize the nature of believing.
 
aspirant said:
Your interpretation is implausible. If St. Augustine did not believe the Eucharist is Jesus, then he’s promoting idolatry. Since those are the only two options, I’m going with “St. Augustine was Catholic” rather than “St. Augustine was pagan.” :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
As mentioned to another poster you must read Augustine’s entire sermon on John Chapter 6 to understand his view and also understand his writing style. When Augustine writes about adoring the bread and wine he’s not referring to literal worship of the bread and wine but the sacrament as a whole. Augustine goes to great lengths in discussing what it means to be worthy of partaking in the sacrament.
 
NDfan said:
It’s very easy to cherry pick comments from Augustine to support your claim. Have you ever read Augustine’s comments on John chapter 6?? Augustine stated that Christ was speaking figuratively and not literally when referencing the consumption of His body and blood. If you understand Augustine’s writing style the comments made above don’t refer to transubstantiation. When Augustine writes that Christ commended his body and blood to the bread and wine he means that the bread and wine are now representative of Christ’s body and blood. Not that they literally are His body and blood.
Click to expand...
This is also true - we don’t taste meat, or blood, when we receive the Eucharist. It’s the Real Presence of Christ, body and blood, soul and divinity, but the appearances (the literal aspects of it) are of bread and of wine.
 
NDfan said:
Unfortunately this is not a reliable posting as it only cherry picks certain comments from Augustine. It’s no different than what the OP stated.
Click to expand...
Cherry picking does have to be watched. Another example which comes to mind is picking out that Peter was given keys so that is an argument making him Pope. Even though all the disciples were given the ability to bind and loose just 2 chapters later. Which just happens to be the function of keys. 🤷 Also as someone said understanding writing style is always important too.
 
NDfan said:
As mentioned to another poster you must read Augustine’s entire sermon on John Chapter 6 to understand his view
Click to expand...
You cannot understand what he wrote about John 6 without also taking into account what he wrote elsewhere about the Eucharist.
NDfan said:
When Augustine writes about adoring the bread and wine he’s not referring to literal worship of the bread and wine
Click to expand...
Because he is taking about the adoration (i.e. the highest form of worship, due to God alone) of the Eucharist.
 
NDfan said:
It’s very easy to cherry pick comments from Augustine to support your claim. Have you ever read Augustine’s comments on John chapter 6?? Augustine stated that Christ was speaking figuratively and not literally when referencing the consumption of His body and blood. If you understand Augustine’s writing style the comments made above don’t refer to transubstantiation. When Augustine writes that Christ commended his body and blood to the bread and wine he means that the bread and wine are now representative of Christ’s body and blood. Not that they literally are His body and blood.
Click to expand...
After reading tractate 26, which deals with John 6:41-59, I have to disagree with you. Augustine was writing centuries before the word transubstantiation was invented but I don’t see anything which would indicate Augustine did not believe the Eucharist was Christ.
 
Stephen168 said:
After reading tractate 26, which deals with John 6:41-59, …I don’t see anything which would indicate Augustine did not believe the Eucharist was Christ.
Click to expand...
I agree completely. And he says it’s a sin not to worship the Eucharist as God. Really, there is no plausible case that St. Augustine’s faith isn’t Catholic.
 
NDfan said:
When Augustine writes about adoring the bread and wine he’s not referring to literal worship of the bread and wine but the sacrament as a whole.
Click to expand...
I don’t think it cherry picks as much as give the rest of the story with regard to Augustine from what I’ve read.

As to your comment here----this is confusing. You are saying Augustine said it is good to “worship the sacrament,” even though it’s not really God??? That does not make sense to me. Which part of Augustine are you thinking of?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top