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m134e5
Guest
The EU will not work. Europe cannot set aside centuries of fighting and live in peace- not like this. They fought against each other for independence- and I can almost promise that they will do so again. I pray Ireland has the courage to tell the EU to mind their own business when it comes to their tax exemption for the Church, and their abortion laws. They would do well to respect the sovereignty of Ireland- and they would do well to respect the Queen of Ireland.
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bones_IV
Guest
I think that Europe will pay for its lack of vision. If Europe continues to do this to Churches there will be huge huge huge WAR. Pray this doesn’t happen. War is the last thing we want.
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Matt25
Guest
In his Apostolic Exhortation Ecclesia in Europa the Saintly Pope John Paul II made plain his believe that a European Union was certainly possible and, if strengthened by faith desirable. See vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_20030628_ecclesia-in-europa_en.html
For her part, *in keeping with a healthy cooperation between the ecclesial community and political society, the Catholic Church is convinced that she can make a unique contribution to the prospect of unification by offering the European institutions, in continuity with her tradition and in fidelity to the principles of her social teaching, the engagement of believing communities committed to bringing about the humanization of society on the basis of the Gospel, lived under the sign of hope. From this standpoint, the presence of Christians, properly trained and competent, *is needed in the various European agencies and institutions, in order to contribute – with respect for the correct dynamics of democracy and through an exchange of proposals – to the shaping of a European social order which is increasingly respectful of every man and woman, and thus in accordance with the common good.
For her part, *in keeping with a healthy cooperation between the ecclesial community and political society, the Catholic Church is convinced that she can make a unique contribution to the prospect of unification by offering the European institutions, in continuity with her tradition and in fidelity to the principles of her social teaching, the engagement of believing communities committed to bringing about the humanization of society on the basis of the Gospel, lived under the sign of hope. From this standpoint, the presence of Christians, properly trained and competent, *is needed in the various European agencies and institutions, in order to contribute – with respect for the correct dynamics of democracy and through an exchange of proposals – to the shaping of a European social order which is increasingly respectful of every man and woman, and thus in accordance with the common good.
- *The Europe which must be built up as a “union” also impels Christians towards unity *so that they can be true witnesses of hope. In this context, the exchange of gifts, which in this last decade has had significant expressions, should be continued and developed. When it takes place between communities with different histories and traditions, it leads to more durable bonds between the Churches in different countries and their reciprocal enrichment through meetings, exchanges of ideas and mutual assistance. In particular the contribution of the cultural and spiritual tradition offered by the Eastern Catholic Churches needs to be better appreciated…
- The strengthening of union in Europe motivates Christians to cooperate in the process of integration and reconciliation through a theological, spiritual, ethical and social dialogue.(188) Indeed, “in the Europe which is proceeding towards political unity, can we accept that the Church of Christ is herself a factor of division and of discord? Would this not be one of the greatest scandals of our time?”
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Colm_O_Higgins
Guest
While I share JP2’s hope for what the European Union could, and ought, to be, I think the chances of European institutions and the Church working together have all but vanished. I think the latest EU sponsored attacks on the sanctity of life are death-throws of a rapidly decaying regime. Unfortunately, Ireland - a country which, as my name suggests, I have a real affinity for - appears to be following the EU’s latest attacks on the rights of expression, and conscience. But the end is nay nigh; there are certain things we would do well to keep in mind.
- The approaching death of the EU will not result in another European war. One of the EU’s only achievements was removing the stain of nationalism from domestic politics. A Frenchmen no longer hates a Briton nor does a Briton hate a Deustchlander. Catholicism, and other Christian denominations too, is now something which bridges more people and communites than it seperates.
- Unlike the Church, the EU is a secular institution. We know no matter how savage the attacks are, the Church will always remain. The EU on the other hand, does not enjoy a deposit of Faith or St. Peter’s promise; it cannot transcend its own secular foundations, and is thus condemned to the ashes of this world.
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Matt25
Guest
Colm O'Higgins:
What EU sponsored attacks on the sanctity of life? Given that Poland is an EU member I would be surprised to hear you tell me that they backed an attack on the sanctity of life. Which Polish Minister voted for it?
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KathleenElsie
Guest
I think that the words I highlighted in red says it all. In everyting that I have read and heard the “united in faith” is sadly missing.
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Franze
Guest
Matt25, don´t you see Euronews and how they treat the Catholic Church, the abortion and other things? they are laicists and they hate the church, it´s a fact.
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bones_IV
Guest
Franze, what does laicist mean? Don’t mean to sound like I’m ignorant.
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Matt25
Guest
Who do you mean by they? Eoropean Commissioners? MEP’s? Judges? National ministers? Please be more specific. Who are “they” precisely and what have “they” done and are they the whole European Union?
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Matt25
Guest
That may be so but disassembling the Union is a less good option than working and praying ever harder to build a more faith based Europe. The Holy See has long encouraged the European project and has not resiled from that position se fore example-
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2004/october/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20041028_romano-prodi_en.html
ADDRESS OF JOHN PAUL II
TO HON. MR ROMANO PRODI
PRESIDENT OF THE EUROPEAN COMMISSION Thursday, 28 October 2004
- The Holy See encouraged the formation of the European Union even before it acquired any juridical framework, and has subsequently followed it with active interest through its various stages. It has always felt duty-bound to express openly the just expectations of the large number of the Christian citizens of Europe who requested its involvement.
The Holy See, therefore, has reminded everyone that Christianity in its various manifestations has contributed to forming the common conscience of the European Peoples and has made a great contribution to shaping their civilization. Regardless of whether or not it is recognized in the official documents, this is an undeniable fact that no historian will be able to forget…
Code:Or [vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2000/jul-sep/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20000923_european-union_en.html](http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2000/jul-sep/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20000923_european-union_en.html)
TO THE PRESIDENTS OF THE PARLIAMENTS
OF THE EUROPEAN UNION *** Saturday 23 September 2000
- Presiding over the legislatures which represent your people, you are witnesses of the convergence between the interests of your respective countries and the interests of the larger unity of Europe. I am pleased to note that the Union wants to welcome new member States and that it is showing itself open and flexible as it looks to the future. The European Union has retained its creativity, and that is the best guarantee that it will succeed in securing the greatest good of its citizens. It is pledged to maintain their cultural diversity and to safeguard the values and principles of its founders, which constitute the common heritage of all of Europe’s citizens.
Code:True to its distinctive character, the European Union has already developed shared institutions, with a system of checks and balances of power, which safeguard democracy. The time seems ripe to synthesize these achievements in an arrangement which is both less complex and more effective. The European Union will certainly be able to find the right formula both to satisfy the aspirations of its peoples and to ensure that the common good is served. 3. In the Church’s social teaching, which draws upon biblical revelation and natural law, the notion of the common good applies at every level of organization in human society. There is a national common good, which State institutions are meant to serve.** And at a time when economies and trade of every kind in Europe and throughout the world are more and more interdependent, who could deny that there is also a continental and even global common good? Europe is becoming increasingly aware of its common good as a continent, that is, of the range of initiatives and values which European nations must together pursue and defend if they wish to respond appropriately to the needs of their citizens.**..- May the European Union witness another step forward on the path of human development! May it succeed in forging the consensus necessary to set among its highest ideals the protection of life, respect for one another, mutual help and a fraternity which excludes no one. Whenever Europe draws from its Christian roots the great principles of its vision of the world, it knows that it can look serenely to the future.
Upon you, your families and the peoples and nations which you represent I gladly invoke the blessings of Almighty God.
- May the European Union witness another step forward on the path of human development! May it succeed in forging the consensus necessary to set among its highest ideals the protection of life, respect for one another, mutual help and a fraternity which excludes no one. Whenever Europe draws from its Christian roots the great principles of its vision of the world, it knows that it can look serenely to the future.
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Franze
Guest
Laicist, is a ideology with tendence to religion, that is law in France and is spreaded in some regions of Europe. The faith, any faith, but the main, is the catholicism, has to be hide from the public opinion, and has to be hidden to private zone, like churches, and other things. The results are that they want that the church don´t refuse any european politics against the life and moral. That the religions would be out in Europe in schools, the unique country where they´re out is in France. For example, in Germany, with the ban hijab law, the nuns were forbidden to have their clothes. Because for the law, it´s the same that the veil of muslim women.
In Spain, Zapatero is ruling this sentence.
He has said yesterday
" The state can´t rule with the faith" speaking that only for faith reasons, we can´t aprove laws like the homosexual marriage aproved in Spain some months ago.
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Franze
Guest
Don´t you remember José Borrell, the current president of European Parliament
He said
“Let’s leave god out of it,” he said: “The Popes demand, adopted by the European Popular Party and by some social-democrat representatives, would mean an important change in a political project which is inherently secular from the beginning, and must remain being so, with even stronger reasons, in the future …] Many of our values were forged against the church and when it comes to democracy, the rights of man and equality, God is only a recent convert”.
euractiv.com/Article?tcmuri=tcm:29-129763-16&type=Profile
In a meeting in Spain, I remember very well, when he said, about the christianism in constitution, that the church, only has burned heretics in the story, he said in a meeting.
el cabeza de lista rechazó incluir una referencia a las raíces cristianas de Europa en la futura Constitución, entre otras razones, porque “detrás del cristianismo se esconden la Inquisición, la tortura, la quema de libros, la aberrante enseñanza moral de la Iglesia en materia sexual”, y porque en tocante a “democracia, derechos humanos e igualdad, Dios es un converso reciente; se acomodó durante siglos con la esclavitud, ayer todavía bendecía a Franco y no ha sido ajeno a la tragedia de los Balcanes”.
The chief in the list refuse include a reference of the christian roots of Europe in the future Constitution, in addition of, because below of the christianism, they hides, the inquisition, torture, the books burnt, the aberrant moral teaching of the church in sexual matter, and touching in “democracy, human rights and iguality” God is a recent convert: for many centuries, he was comfortable with the slavery, yesterday blessed Franco and it wasn´t far from Balkans tragedy.
And the Union European is “christian”, “I laugh”
In Spanish
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bones_IV
Guest
Franze, I can honestly say that I feel for you Europeans over there. It is so sad that many people in Europe have such a hatred for the pope. Is the hatred for Benedict XVI really that bad?
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Franze
Guest
Thanks, but we need that americans don´t think that Europe hasn´t solution, because we have. And the most important, praying.
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Matt25
Guest
The European Parliament has no executive power. The only power it posseses is to block the Commission budget. The President of the European Parliament has no meaningful power at all. The most junior European Commissioner is a hundred times more powerful than he is. If he expresses an opinion thats all it is an opinion. And the EU upholds freedom of speech thank God.
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bones_IV
Guest
Sir, I have no idea what you said. There’ s a Kentucky double negative in one of your sentences. The phrase “americans don’t think Europe hasn’t solution” is like saying “I ain’t got no gun”. Which is like saying you do have a gun. Please write better.
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Matt25
Guest
English is not his first language. His English is much better than my Spanish. I think what he meant is that Americans shouldn’t imagine that Europeans have not come up with a solution to this problem. We have and the most importan element of it is to pray.
This BTW does not imply that I endorse Franze’s view’s but heck he is a fellow EU citizen, thank God.
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bones_IV
Guest
All I can say is that we should burry the EU first.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Is that so surprising ? The CC was clericalist for centuries. Why is clericalism tolerable, and laicism not ? Maybe people are laicist because they are over-reacting to that clericalism.
I saw this in that article:“The latest incident is the EU’s demand that Spain eliminate its sales tax exemption for the Catholic Church within 60 days.”
I can’t see the “hate” - unless refusing to give the CC a privileged position (such as it had in Spain after the 1953 Concordat) is “hate”. “What goes around, comes around” - even for the CC. The EU cannot arrange Europe according to the likings of the Vatican alone, for the very simple reason that not all Europeans are in any sense, however tenuous, Christian - let alone Catholic: why should followers of non-Christians religions, or of none, be required to follow specifically RC ethics ? That’s why the EU cannot be specifically Catholic.
Supposing the EU does “hate the Church”: why not ask “Why does it?” ? People do not usually hate for absolutely no reason whatever. Maybe it is the evil done by “the Church” - the clergy, perhaps ? - that is hated - for that evil, is a betrayal of its vocation and character. Since many of those who make the decisions in the EU are Catholics, and therefore members of the Church, the whole accusation makes little sense. Hating the clergy is not the same as hating the Church - and is not the same as checking excessive clerical power, either. All Catholics are the Church - not just those who have been through the seminary system. Calling the clergy the Church is like calling Washington the USA.
As for the sub-heading Ideology at Work - Dr. Mirus might not like what he sees (rightly or wrongly) as the ideology of the EU - but he follows an ideology himself: Catholicism is as much an ideology as any.
And no, I don’t like the EU much at all; I want a Great Britain and Northern Ireland which is free of meddling by unelected and unaccountable foreign bureaucrats (whether in the EU* or* in the CC) - it does not follow from this, that all criticisms of the EU (or of the CC) are equally valid. ##
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