No, the purpose of the Messiah is not to “inaugurate sovereignty over the rest of the nations.” Rather, it is to bring peace between all the nations of the world so that everyone can live without conflict and in harmony. This will probably necessitate the rooting out of those who are opposed to the liberation of all nations. Furthermore, there is no requirement for anyone to convert to Judaism. Neither the Jews nor anyone else, however, will ‘turn away from G-d’ because the Messiah is expected to usher in a new Messianic age on Earth, a kind of utopia in which the presence of G-d is felt by all and there is no need for conflict and war; an era of cooperation and brotherhood between and within the nations in accord with G-d’s will. In addition, the Jews are to return to their ancient dwelling place in Israel where they together with the Messiah himself are to rebuild the Temple and reinstate the biblical rituals of worship so that all the 613 commandments of the Torah may be practiced once again, as foretold according to prophecy in the Hebrew Bible. An important point is that not only does the Torah Law remain in effect with the advent of the Messiah but it reaches its zenith for all Jews. Again, non-Jews who choose not to convert are to live together with Jews in peace and harmony.From what I’ve read the Jews expect the Messiah to be a political and military leader who will free the Jews and inaugurate sovereignty over the rest of the nations. It just seems to me even if the Messiah does conqueror by political and military might won’t the Jews stuff it up once again as they did many times over by their “turning away from God”?
Please excuse me if I sound harsh…
Thanks brother for your reply.No, the purpose of the Messiah is not to “inaugurate sovereignty over the rest of the nations.” Rather, it is to bring peace between all the nations of the world so that everyone can live without conflict and in harmony. This will probably necessitate the rooting out of those who are opposed to the liberation of all nations. Furthermore, there is no requirement for anyone to convert to Judaism. Neither the Jews nor anyone else, however, will ‘turn away from G-d’ because the Messiah is expected to usher in a new Messianic age on Earth, a kind of utopia in which the presence of G-d is felt by all and there is no need for conflict and war; an era of cooperation and brotherhood between and within the nations in accord with G-d’s will. In addition, the Jews are to return to their ancient dwelling place in Israel where they together with the Messiah himself are to rebuild the Temple and reinstate the biblical rituals of worship so that all the 613 commandments of the Torah may be practiced once again, as foretold according to prophecy in the Hebrew Bible. An important point is that not only does the Torah Law remain in effect with the advent of the Messiah but it reaches its zenith for all Jews. Again, non-Jews who choose not to convert are to live together with Jews in peace and harmony.
So, eternal peace in the company of the Messiah and God, on this planet?No, the purpose of the Messiah is not to “inaugurate sovereignty over the rest of the nations.” Rather, it is to bring peace between all the nations of the world so that everyone can live without conflict and in harmony. This will probably necessitate the rooting out of those who are opposed to the liberation of all nations. Furthermore, there is no requirement for anyone to convert to Judaism. Neither the Jews nor anyone else, however, will ‘turn away from G-d’ because the Messiah is expected to usher in a new Messianic age on Earth, a kind of utopia in which the presence of G-d is felt by all and there is no need for conflict and war; an era of cooperation and brotherhood between and within the nations in accord with G-d’s will. In addition, the Jews are to return to their ancient dwelling place in Israel where they together with the Messiah himself are to rebuild the Temple and reinstate the biblical rituals of worship so that all the 613 commandments of the Torah may be practiced once again, as foretold according to prophecy in the Hebrew Bible. An important point is that not only does the Torah Law remain in effect with the advent of the Messiah but it reaches its zenith for all Jews. Again, non-Jews who choose not to convert are to live together with Jews in peace and harmony.
According to the Book of Zephaniah, there will be no sin during the Messianic Age. The offerings in the Temple will be in the form of celebration and thanksgiving rather than expiation or atonement. So yes, the High Holy Day of Yom Kippur will cease to be practiced at that time, or perhaps will take on a different meaning, since personal sin (Jews do not believe in original sin) will have been eradicated. This does not diminish, however, the practice of the Law, which is regarded by Jews as an eternal Covenant.Thanks brother for your reply.
It seems sin and the effects of sin will still exist in this new Messianic age. If the temple will be rebuilt then I would assume the high priest will continue to practice Yom Kippur. How could there be Messianic peace if sin still dwells within people who thus, are still inclined to sin?
Rabbinical commentary on this is fraught with ambiguity, which Jews not only can tolerate but even delight in at times. The issue regarding whether the Messianic Age is on this planet or in a heavenly extra-temporal, extra-spatial afterlife and, if the latter, what human form that afterlife consists of, whether resurrected bodies or only disembodied souls, and what activity is present or not present there, such as eating, drinking, sexual behavior, etc., is debatable since the Torah gives no clear indication although the Prophets are a little more forthcoming. There is some agreement regarding the existence of an afterlife (Olam Ha-Ba) among Orthodox Jews but the details are unknown. As to Conservative Jews and particularly Reform Jews, there is little consensus on this issue.So, eternal peace in the company of the Messiah and God, on this planet?
Wow that’s interesting!According to the Book of Zephaniah, there will be no sin during the Messianic Age. The offerings in the Temple will be in the form of celebration and thanksgiving rather than expiation or atonement. So yes, the High Holy Day of Yom Kippur will cease to be practiced at that time, or perhaps will take on a different meaning, since personal sin (Jews do not believe in original sin) will have been eradicated. This does not diminish, however, the practice of the Law, which is regarded by Jews as an eternal Covenant.
I’m not even sure the ancient rabbis believed that all sacrifices would cease although I realize the Todah sacrifice is a concept discussed by Christian scholars as pertaining to the final unifying sacrifice of Christ as represented by the Eucharist. Orthodox Jews today pray for the resumption of animal sacrifices when the Messianic Age begins since this is what is prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.Wow that’s interesting!
Can you please show me where in the book of Zephaniah I can find this? I heard the ancient rabbis predicted that after the Messianic age has been ushered in all sacrifices would cease accept the Todah. Do the modern Jews still believe this?
Jews don’t believe in original sin? – I didn’t know that. What are the Jewish teachings regarding the fall of Adam and Eve?
When the Messiah, (from the Jewish perspective) returns what need (purpose) will there be for animal sacrifices?Orthodox Jews today pray for the resumption of animal sacrifices when the Messianic Age begins since this is what is prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.
They would be used as a means of thanksgiving to G-d rather than atonement since sin will no longer exist.When the Messiah, (from the Jewish perspective) returns what need (purpose) will there be for animal sacrifices?
I’m sure you know in Christian theology we believe the sacrifices offered up by the Jews were finite and therefore imperfect. God is an infinite being, thus only an infinite sacrifice will satisfy atonement.They would be used as a means of thanksgiving to G-d rather than atonement since sin will no longer exist.
I get the point of OT animal sacrifices e.g. atonement. But killing animals as a way to thank God? Why do you think that God would want that?They would be used as a means of thanksgiving to G-d rather than atonement since sin will no longer exist.
I don’t believe G-d would actually. However, some Orthodox Jews believe in the reinstatement of the Temple almost the way it was in ancient times and that would presumably include animal sacrifices. Nonetheless, these sacrifices never were a principal means of atonement even back then; the main manner of atonement for intentional sins was by prayer whereas blood atonement through animals was performed only for unintentional sins with one exception. The Hebrew Bible stresses this point several times. Christian scholars, of course, disagree since they argue that the sacrifice of Jesus covers all sins.I get the point of OT animal sacrifices e.g. atonement. But killing animals as a way to thank God? Why do you think that God would want that?
But even prayer would have been an imperfect atonement, would you agree?the main manner of atonement for intentional sins was by prayer
The Jewish paradigm of sin and salvation is quite different from the Christian one in that the former does not believe we are sinners in the sense of inheriting original sin from Adam and Eve, and therefore in need of salvation by means of a Messiah who serves as a Savior. The purpose of the Messiah according to Jewish teaching, as I indicated in my first post, is not individual or personal salvation from original sin but rather the collective salvation of the Jewish people as well as the salvation of the nations as a whole who can now live in peace with one another. That is the only meaning of the term “salvation” as used in Judaism. Atonement, however, refers to prayer toward G-d for sins directly committed against Him as well as seeking forgiveness from one’s neighbors for sins against them. Since sin will be absent during the Messianic Age, there will be no need for atonement. Still, praise of G-d in the form of prayer will remain.I’m sure you know in Christian theology we believe the sacrifices offered up by the Jews were finite and therefore imperfect. God is an infinite being, thus only an infinite sacrifice will satisfy atonement.
How will atonement be satisfied when we reach the new messianic age?
Not really. Prayer was still the essential form of atonement even in the presence of blood atonement. Of course prayer must be sincere and without selfish motivation insofar as humanly possible. It need not be perfect since we humans are not perfect, but gradual improvement in our moral behavior which draws us closer to G-d is all which is expected.But even prayer would have been an imperfect atonement, would you agree?
Actually since we both believe in a just God, then ultimately speaking a perfect atonement needs to be offered up in order for justice to prevail. If a finite sacrifice was offered for an infinite offence then God would not be just in his dealings, in fact dare I say he would be a liar.It need not be perfect since we humans are not perfect, but gradual improvement in our moral behavior which draws us closer to G-d is all which is expected.
Amen to Zephaniah 3:13 & Zephaniah 3:14-20.I’m not even sure the ancient rabbis believed that all sacrifices would cease although I realize the Todah sacrifice is a concept discussed by Christian scholars as pertaining to the final unifying sacrifice of Christ as represented by the Eucharist. Orthodox Jews today pray for the resumption of animal sacrifices when the Messianic Age begins since this is what is prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.
The topic of original sin according to Judaism deserves a thread of its own either on this forum or on a Jewish forum. It’s too complicated to discuss in a few sentences. As to Zephaniah, I’ll have to check the verses. Found it: Zephaniah 3:13.
What “infinite offense” are we talking about here?Actually since we both believe in a just God, then ultimately speaking a perfect atonement needs to be offered up in order for justice to prevail. If a finite sacrifice was offered for an infinite offence then God would not be just in his dealings, in fact dare I say he would be a liar.
Sacrifices related to atonement - right? Meltzerboy mentioned that sacrifices would be used as a means of thanksgiving to G-d rather than atonement since sin will no longer exist. He was referring to the Messianic age.What “infinite offense” are we talking about here?
G-d said explicitly in the Torah that we were to offer sacrifices.