The Failure of "Public" Education

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sedonaman said:
That has been the subject of considerable debate in government circles. One govt. class of upper managers got into a real knock-down drag-out between those in the DoD and those in the Welfare side. The former took your position; the latter maintained that govt. agencies were tasked to “shovel money into the streets.”
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I have a feeling those weren’t their exact words, actually. 😛
 
Luna_Lovecraft said:
Then they need to stay out of K-12 education.

For-profit companies have done more to destroy K-12 education for poor and marginalized kids get in the last ten years than all the innept politicians and school boards and district administrators and classroom teachers put together. One phrase: No Child Left Behind. There is a direct, measured, documented correlation between family income level and how much a child spends every school day on standardized test prep. We spend billions and billions of our tax money every year on NCLB junk, and kids from low-income communities can spend up to three hours every day on non-enriching, skill-drill-kill worksheets in the hopes they’ll look good on a battery of multiple-choice tests for the politicians and business community. Public schools or charter schools, doesn’t matter. If a kid is poor chances are very good her school has done away with art, music, and physical education and huge chunks of social studies and science time to give extended time to canned reading and math programs. No matter what the neuroscience says about how kids learn, the canned programs are profitable for the companies that produce them and they enable administrators to show the politicians and business leaders that they’re “doing something” to bring up test scores. No one even cares anymore that these test scores are both unreliable and invalid measures of what children know and can do. Never mind the kids seldmon learning anything meaningful of these scripted, canned programs. If they test well that’s all the counts anymore.

Luna
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There is no research to back up what you are saying. Like a child, government always blames business when government programs fail. Competition, not more money, is the key to better, more productive schools. Look up **school choice and Milton Friedman **to find the research.
 
👍👍
sedonaman said:
The idea [at least the ones I’ve heard of] is to make the voucher redeemable amount equal to only half of what the public schools spend per pupil. Whether the schools who receive them want to teach readin’, writin’, and ‘rithmatic, or the oppression of peoples of color, the works of Nikki Giovani, Marxist-Leninist claptrap, some other subjects that do not result in students’ ability to produce a useful social product in the economy, or even buy sandals for lesbian students with a foot-fetish, is immaterial. If that’s what parents want, then let them have it. Those who opt for the pursuit of truth will go elsewhere. So control will fall in the hands of the parents, and this is where the rub is: Leftist ideologues will lose control. Conservatives don’t see this as a problem because they trust free people to make the right decision. Leftists do because the will of the unwashed masses is likely to prevail, and this must be avoided at all costs.

P.S. The money belongs to the people, not the government.
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Horace Mann started public education around 1850. Those first public schools were truly public. The parents ran the schools and they were good, one classroom schools. However, public schools are no longer public; they are goivertnment schools. Power has moved upward from the parents to the state and federal governments. Government schools are a failure. Schoold vouchers will reclaim the power of the parents.
 
jmcrae said:
You work for the government? And you are arguing against there being government employees because they are a waste of tax dollars?
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I never argued against there being government employees; someone has to administer the government. I’m arguing against ineffective and inefficient management, of which I have seen plenty. Luna thinks those in education should be altruistic and blames corporations for education’s failure. Have you ever seen a teachers’ union put the students’ welfare above their own?
 
ACCT said:
The United States Department of Education has admitted that the average cost of public education per pupil is slightly more than double the cost per pupil of a private education, even though public schools have more students per teacher. Thus, there was no economy of scale as the per pupil cost should theoretically decline the more students there are per teacher.

Our total cost per student in our Catholic school, before any payments or subsidizations, is in the $4K range. That is less than half what the state is paying for one of the neighborhood kids.
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I think one factor is that the teachers in most private/religious schools are not paid anywhere near where public school teachers are paid. My sister taught English in a religious school and one of her friends who taught English in the public schools made over 35k per year more then she did!
 
gamewell45 said:
I think one factor is that the teachers in most private/religious schools are not paid anywhere near where public school teachers are paid. My sister taught English in a religious school and one of her friends who taught English in the public schools made over 35k per year more then she did!
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100% school vouchers would eliminate that problem. All schools would have to compete for teachers. The only thing wrong with teaching is that you have to work for the state government.
 
sedonaman said:
I never argued against there being government employees; someone has to administer the government. I’m arguing against ineffective and inefficient management, of which I have seen plenty. Luna thinks those in education should be altruistic and blames corporations for education’s failure. Have you ever seen a teachers’ union put the students’ welfare above their own?
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Actually, I have - more than once. Teachers do what they do because they love children and they believe in giving children the best possible opportunities for the future. Very few people go into teaching for the money or the power or the respect - and those who do, don’t last very long.
 
ACCT said:
100% school vouchers would eliminate that problem. All schools would have to compete for teachers. The only thing wrong with teaching is that you have to work for the state government.
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They have to because the states are mandated with providing education for all children.

Most states have higher requirements for teacher to teach in the public school system. Most states require a a minimum of Masters Degrees plus certification in order to teach full time. Most private schools only require a bachelors degree to teach.

My sister taught private school for her entire life; no pensions, no retiree benefits. Her counterparts all had pensions, retiree benefits, life insurance, etc.
 
gamewell45 said:
They have to because the states are mandated with providing education for all children.
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This was not always the case. It’s only because some extra-constitutional law was passed.
Most states have higher requirements for teacher to teach in the public school system. Most states require a a minimum of Masters Degrees plus certification in order to teach full time. …
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One would intuitively think these requirements would serve to maintain the quality of eduction. So why haven’t they?
Most private schools only require a bachelors degree to teach.
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One would also intuitively think that test scores in public vs private would be the inverse of what they are. So why aren’t they?
“Nø, they can’t.”
 
sedonaman said:
One would intuitively think these requirements would serve to maintain the quality of eduction. So why haven’t they?

One would also intuitively think that test scores in public vs private would be the inverse of what they are. So why aren’t they?
“Nø, they can’t.”
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I think it would depend on which public school system your talking about; not all public schools are failing; indeed from what I’ve read, many public schools throughout the country provide the basic education the children need with high graduation rates and college admission. Not to say that all public schools don’t have issues. Perhaps some inner cities where there are social issues that abound.

Likewise I think that the higher requirements, such as Masters Degree and certification show a higher level of training and knowledge, which ultimately benefit the students.
 
gamewell45 said:
I think it would depend on which public school system your talking about; not all public schools are failing; indeed from what I’ve read, many public schools throughout the country provide the basic education the children need with high graduation rates and college admission. Not to say that all public schools don’t have issues. Perhaps some inner cities where there are social issues that abound.
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There are exceptions to every rule, even to the rule that says there are exceptions to every rule. I’m talking about averages.
Likewise I think that the higher requirements, such as Masters Degree and certification show a higher level of training and knowledge, which ultimately benefit the students.
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Like I said, one would intuitively think this, but why are the AVERAGE test scores lower in public vs. private schools?
“Nø, they can’t.”
 
sedonaman said:
There are exceptions to every rule, even to the rule that says there are exceptions to every rule. I’m talking about averages.

Like I said, one would intuitively think this, but why are the AVERAGE test scores lower in public vs. private schools?
“Nø, they can’t.”
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I couldn’t tell you because I’m not aware if any statistics are available to the public.
 
gamewell45 said:
I couldn’t tell you because I’m not aware if any statistics are available to the public.
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These are some of the statistics:

Joshua Cowen, “School Choice as a Latent Variable: Estimating ‘Complier Average Causal Effect’ of Vouchers in Charlotte,” Policy Studies Journal, November 2007.

Charlotte, NC—After one year, voucher students had reading scores 8 percentile points higher than the control group and math scores 7 points higher.
Alan Krueger and Pei Zhu, “Another Look at the New York City School Voucher Experiment,” American Behavioral Scientist, January 2004.

New York, NY—The voucher students had higher scores, but the results did not achieve statistical significance. Subsequent analysis has demonstrated that this occurred because the study used inappropriate research methods that violate the norms of the scientific community; if legitimate methods are used, the positive results for vouchers become significant
John Barnard, Constantine Frangakis, Jennifer Hill, and Donald Rubin, “Principal Stratification Approach to Broken Randomized Experiments: A Case Study of School Choice Vouchers in New York City,” Journal of the American Statistical Association, June 2003.

New York, NY—After one year, voucher students had math scores 5 percen¬tile points higher than the control group.
William Howell and Paul Peterson, The Education Gap, Brookings Institution, 2002.

Washington D.C.—After two years, black voucher students had combined reading and math scores 9 percentile points higher than the control group.
William Howell and Paul Peterson, The Education Gap, Brookings Institution, 2002.

Dayton, OH—After two years, black voucher students had combined reading and math scores 6.5 percentile points higher than the control group.
William Howell and Paul Peterson, The Education Gap, Brookings Institution, 2002.

New York, NY—After three years, black voucher students had combined reading and math scores 9 percentile points higher than the control group.
Jay Greene, “Vouchers in Charlotte,” Education Next, Summer 2001.

Charlotte, NC—After one year, voucher students had combined reading and math scores 6 percentile points higher than the control group.
Cecilia Rouse, “Private School Vouchers and Student Achievement,” Quarterly Journal of Economics, May 1998.

Milwaukee, WI—After four years, voucher students had math scores 8 NCE points higher than the control group. NCE points are similar to percentile points.
Jay Greene, Paul Peterson and Jiangtao Du, “School Choice in Milwaukee: A Randomized Experiment,” in Learning From School Choice, eds. Paul Peterson and Bryan Hassel, Brookings Institution, 1998.

Milwaukee, WI—After four years, voucher students had reading scores 6 Normal Curve Equivalent (NCE) points higher than the control group, and math scores 11 points higher. NCE points are similar to percentile points.
 
Public schools have to educate all people of a certain age.

In our district, we have a large immigrant population. Most come here not knowing english. Some have never been regularly schooled. Many kids (not just immigrant kids) have learning disabilities.

Private schools take in NONE OF THESE KIDS. Okay, maybe a few on scholarship. But, in general, comparing voucher pilots to general population schools is not very useful.

How do you control for the voucher school parents who are (or become) more engaged because they want to prove the voucher system works? How do you account for the fact that the really engaged parents apply for the program in the first place.

Yes, voucher pilots work. Great. Someone please explain how a totally voucher system would actually work with the totally unengaged parents, the unmotivated students, the learning disabled, the profoundly retarded, and the ESL kids. In that case, the public schools, which are required by law to educate everyone, would become the educator of last resort with a budget shrunken to nothing.
 
PaulinVA said:
Public schools have to educate all people of a certain age.

In our district, we have a large immigrant population. Most come here not knowing english. Some have never been regularly schooled. Many kids (not just immigrant kids) have learning disabilities.

Private schools take in NONE OF THESE KIDS. Okay, maybe a few on scholarship. But, in general, comparing voucher pilots to general population schools is not very useful.

How do you control for the voucher school parents who are (or become) more engaged because they want to prove the voucher system works? How do you account for the fact that the really engaged parents apply for the program in the first place.

Yes, voucher pilots work. Great. Someone please explain how a totally voucher system would actually work with the totally unengaged parents, the unmotivated students, the learning disabled, the profoundly retarded, and the ESL kids. In that case, the public schools, which are required by law to educate everyone, would become the educator of last resort with a budget shrunken to nothing.
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In the urban slums where the public schools are doing such a poor job, most parents would undoubtedly try to send their children to nonpublic schools.

The one prediction that can be made is that only those schools that satisfy their customers will survive…Competition would see to that.

What reason is there to suppose that alternatives will really arise? The reason is that** a market (new schools) would develop where it does not exist today.**

100% universal school vouchers will help the poor and disadvantaged more than anyone else.
 
ACCT said:
In the urban slums where the public schools are doing such a poor job, most parents would undoubtedly try to send their children to nonpublic schools.

The one prediction that can be made is that only those schools that satisfy their customers will survive…Competition would see to that.

What reason is there to suppose that alternatives will really arise? The reason is that** a market (new schools**) would develop where it does not exist today.

100% universal school vouchers will help the poor and disadvantaged more than anyone else.
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Could you venture into the realm of specifics? There MUST be a public school system to educate the kids that are too expensive to educate with the voucher money alone. How will that school system exist when all of the other money is siphoned off?
 
ACCT said:
In the urban slums where the public schools are doing such a poor job, most parents would undoubtedly try to send their children to nonpublic schools.
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I think the fact that you refer to them as urban slums is telling… The parlance used by those who serve these populations is low-income neighborhoods. The terms mean the same thing, but the citizens of low-income areas tend to get offended when you refer to their neighborhoods as slums. They’re funny about protecting their dignity like that.

I am anything but a fan of NCLB, but one good thing that has come out of this legislation is that it forces schools to release disaggregated data on their subgroups. When you compare charter, private, and public schools that operate in the same neighborhoods (urban, rural, suburban, etc.), one pattern emerges quickly: the single largest predictor of academic performance predictor isn’t which school the child is enrolled in, it’s parental education level. Kids whose parents did not graduate from high school perform lower both academically and socially (e.g., grades and discipline issues) than children whose parents have at least a high school degree, and the children who tend to perform the best have parents who are college graduates. Again, this is across the board.

Parent education levels, family income levels, how many people share square footage in a household, the average noise level in a house between 5:00 p.m. and 10 p.m., how many adults live in a household, and if parents are immigrants all factor higher in predicting a child’s academic success before what kind of school the child attends does.

In other words, schools are like mirrors: they reflect what they face.
 
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