The Fall According to Mormonism

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Techno2000 said:
Some have 1000 experiences, others have 1 experience 1000 times

How about this one : The Devil will tell you a 1000 Truths, just to slip in One Lie.
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I can agree with that, however you didn’t answer my question. Mocking someone is easy. I’m more interested in your thoughts.

Paul
 
Paul_G said:
For us of course is. For Adam and Eve is not so clear as, I see it, they did not fit the criterion for the scriptural definition for sinning. I you can show me otherwise I would be interested in learning that

Paul
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I’m puzzled by this, I just don’t see how putting ones own will before Gods isn’t sinning???:confused:
 
Paul_G said:
For us of course is. For Adam and Eve is not so clear as, I see it, they did not fit the criterion for the scriptural definition for sinning. I you can show me otherwise I would be interested in learning that

Paul
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Paul,
If it is a sin for us today to disobey God, then Why would it not be clear that it was a sin for Adam and Eve to disObey God? He said do not eat from this tree. they did. the disobeyed, they sinned. This is not a very hard concept to grasp.

Disobeying Gods command = sin.
 
Paul_G said:
I can agree with that, however you didn’t answer my question. Mocking someone is easy. I’m more interested in your thoughts.

Paul
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Doesn’t the LDS say that “The Book of Mormon” (which I have read cover to cover) is another Gospel of Jesus Christ. ?
 
zerinus said:
I was referring to the main thesis of his post, that God gave Adam two contradictory commandments, and the Fall consisted of Adam deciding between the two. That is not LDS doctrine—even though some LDS may have erroneously portrayed it as such.
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Well it might be a simplification of a difficult topic. The part about A&E not having babies before the fall is in the Book of Moses.
Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth to all the obedient.
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And Lehi explains that it’s not even possible:
2 Nephi 2:22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.
QUOTE]
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We’re good on that, right?
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rmcmullan said:
Well it might be a simplification of a difficult topic. The part about A&E not having babies before the fall is in the Book of Moses.
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I think that we are talking at cross-purposes. You keep talking about babies. I was not talking about babies. I was talking about the OP’s contention that God gave Adam two contradictory commandments, and Adam made a simple choice between the two. LDS doctrine, however, teaches that it was not quite like that.
And Lehi explains that it’s not even possible:
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We’re good on that, right?
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I have no arguments with those scriptural passages. My argument was with the OP. Let me explain it this way: According to LDS doctrine, Satan temped Adam first; but Adam would not be tempted. Then he tempted Eve, which worked. Now let us suppose that Eve also had not yielded to temptation; what would have happened then? The real answer of course is that we don’t know—but from what we do know, evidently Adam would not have broken the commandment. So Adam didn’t break the commandment simply because he was faced with two contradictory commandments. He did so as a result of the changed situation that had arisen after Eve had broken the commandment. That is the point I was trying to make in my response to the OP.

zerinus
 
this has already been proven incorrect using mormon scriptures and also with the exegesis of same by LDs “prophets”. no matter how you slice it mormon doctrine paints the fall of adam as a good thing. the fact that is contradicted Gods commandment makes that problematic.
 
majick275 said:
… you’ll find jeff lindsay’s position is pretty much the “official” LDS doctrine in this case.
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I understand Lindsay’s position as follows:
Adam and Eve were given two commandments:
  1. Be fruitful and multiply (Genesis 1:28)
  2. Do not eat of the tree of knowledge (Genesis 2:16-7)
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The commandments conflict: Adam and Eve were unable to have children in the Garden of Eden and were unable to keep the greater commandment that they had been given, to multiply and replenish the earth.(BoM 2 Nephi 2:22-23)
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Solution to conflict: God gave Adam and Eve a higher and a lower commandment - multiply on one hand (higher), or avoid the tree of knowledge of good and evil on the other (lower). Disobeying the lower commandant allowed Adam and Eve to obey the higher commandment.
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Result of the fall: The earth could be populated and Jesus would come and bring us grace.
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Is this correct?
 
Stephen168 said:
I understand Lindsay’s position as follows:

Is this correct?
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almost…LDS doctrine adds a further twist…when eve is tempted after adam resisted, eve tells adam that now he CAN’T obey all the commandments because she will be cast out of the garden and he will be alone.
 
oneGODoneCHURCH said:
Paul,
If it is a sin for us today to disobey God, then Why would it not be clear that it was a sin for Adam and Eve to disObey God? He said do not eat from this tree. they did. the disobeyed, they sinned. This is not a very hard concept to grasp.

Disobeying Gods command = sin.
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Since there are a number of posts with the same general theme I will respond to you as if all.

Yes of course, disobeying Gods commands does equal sin for all the children of Adam and Eve. As I see it, Adam and Eve where innocent not knowing good or evil. I would say that they transgressed but did not sin. All others from then knowing good from evil could sin, but that first act, I believe, was not a sin.

Paul
 
Paul_G said:
Ok, I get it now - just a subtle pot shot. Fair enough.

Paul
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Ok I’m sorry about mocking Joseph smith, but doesn’t the Mormons say that the book of Mormon is “another” Gospel of Jesus Christ ?
 
rmcmullan said:
I’ve noticed that too, there’s been a distinct “watering down” of the uniquely Mormon tenents over the years. I’m sorry to see it as it makes some of the Sunday School and priesthood lessons dull. You go looking for meat but mostly get milk. To some degree anyway. I would like to see them more developed but with the exception of temple worship, a lot of what makes us unique is highly criticised and I can understand why they’re being left undeveloped for the time being. Give us another couple thousand years.
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The lds do go to sunday school where they do learn doctrine. The catholic church has no sunday school for adults. I can understand the milk thing. But you need to understand that people may have a difficult time embracing difficult concepts in 30 minutes. The meat would take more than one lesson as people plow their way through sunday school. However the meat can be had outside of sunday school through independent reading.
 
Techno2000 said:
Ok I’m sorry about mocking Joseph smith, but doesn’t the Mormons say that the book of Mormon is “another” Gospel of Jesus Christ ?
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No, they claim that the book of mormon is another testament of christ. And that would make all the difference. It is not another gospel of christ.
 
majick275 said:
this has already been proven incorrect using mormon scriptures and also with the exegesis of same by LDs “prophets”. no matter how you slice it mormon doctrine paints the fall of adam as a good thing. the fact that is contradicted Gods commandment makes that problematic.
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I believe that it is related to free will. Adam and Eve had free will in the garden. All was fine until the temptation by satan. Strange but satan was between a rock and a hard place. If he did not tempt adam and eve, all would be okay. He would have no power in the lives of human beings since adam and eve would be living in perfect bliss. But with the temptation, he fulfills god’s plan for salvation and yet, he gains power in the world. He seems to have chosen the best option to keep him busy.
 
rmcmullan said:
I can hardly disagree with that but I also think that Majick has a point that a lot of the more controversial theology has been toned down recently and not discussed as much as in the former years. In the end, we’ll be judged by our works and not our understanding of theology or lack thereof so yeah, what does it matter any way? But I find the ideas intriguing and the originality a sign of the true church. An indication of the hand of God and not of man.
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Do you remember how sunday school used to be? It was much longer than it is today. Today, there are time contraints. But in the past it was over aan hour long. First there were sunday school opening exercises and then all would go to their persepective classes. Now, the time limit is very short.

In the end, we will be judged according to our doctrine knowledge and how we put that knowledge to good works and obedience. .
 
majick275 said:
almost…LDS doctrine adds a further twist…when eve is tempted after adam resisted, eve tells adam that now he CAN’T obey all the commandments because she will be cast out of the garden and he will be alone.
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I noticed this twist but I can not understand how it adds to the idea of The Fall being a good thing. It seemed so contrary to Genesis and logic that I assumed it was just adding some color to an already twisted story. How is this twist important to Mormon doctrine?
 
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