The Fall !

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Nope, not at all, all faith, and non of faith, tend to be rather self serving, to do things for their own benifit, and that alone. It’s our human nature, it’s our faith that teaches us otherwise, and if you are doing good works and being of service to others with no desire for reward of any kind, you are truly getting the message our Lord taught us and I will give you a pat on the back for doing so.
I can not reply to this without being rude. I have been a volunteer for most of my life, in many capacities and still am very active in my community.

I don’t do it for my benefit, I do it for the benefit of knowing we all have to share this planet, and we should all do the best we can to do it the best we can now.

As for my not understanding your post, and you not being able to explain it to me- I would rather reserve for now my thoughts on that. I would like to continue that course of discussion, about “special knowledge” at some point with you though.
 
So, only believers do righteous works?

Or is it a righteous work to believe? Is that the primary thing, belief?

I’ll live by works alone. I’ll fail just like christians do. But, I won’t be able to do any less due to my lack of belief.
Whether a work is righteous or not is determined by God. He is the Judge of the intentions of each person’s heart.

It is a righteous work to believe.

Yes, belief is the primary conditon that must be met in order to inherit eternal life. However, belief is not simply head knowledge. Knowing (believing) that God exists apart from serving Him (obeying His commands) is not enough to be approved to enter into eternal life. Satan knows and believes that God exists, but he will be condemned to hell for all eternity after the Judgment because he does not serve/obey God.

**James 2:19 **You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

Obedience to God is the proof of love for Him and He only approves the crown of life to those persons who love Him.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

John 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.

1 John 2:3-5 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

Can and do non-believers do good works for their fellow men? Of course. God rewards these good deeds while these persons are living on earth since they will not be rewarded in heaven.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Arrogance and defiance merits condemnation. Humility and obedience merits eternal life.
 
=twinc;6664841]Have we really grasped what happened at "The Fall"and the consequences etc - any comments,opinions,ideas,observations, conclusions etc - twinc
I’d like to comment, but which fall are you speaking of. The Bible is replete with them? 🤷

Love and prayers,
Pat
 
Have we really grasped what happened at "The Fall"and the consequences etc - any comments,opinions,ideas,observations, conclusions etc - twinc
Yes the fall was sex.

Eve tempted Adam to have sex with him, this was the original sin. Showing sex is sinful. This is why the Holy Father has never had sex and Priests and nuns don’t marry.
 
Yes the fall was sex.

Eve tempted Adam to have sex with him, this was the original sin. Showing sex is sinful. This is why the Holy Father has never had sex and Priests and nuns don’t marry.
This is not Catholic teaching about Original Sin – not even close. Yuk! Sounds more like something from Chick Publications.😦
 
This is not Catholic teaching about Original Sin – not even close. Yuk! Sounds more like something from Chick Publications.😦
yes, of course you are right, no it wasn’t sex exactly it was pride, the original sin was pride but we know they did eventually have sex an lose their innocence.
 
=Cashue;6695162]Yes the fall was sex.
Eve tempted Adam to have sex with him, this was the original sin. Showing sex is sinful. This is why the Holy Father has never had sex and Priests and nuns don’t marry.
My dear friend in Christ.

Where does such a silly position come from?

God Created Eve so that both she and and Adam could and would have sex.

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

Genesis 1: [2-28] ] So God created man in his own image, in the image of** God he created him; male and female he created them**. And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."

What leads to to this errant position of yours?

Love and prayers.Pat
 
My dear friend in Christ.

Where does such a silly position come from?

God Created Eve so that both she and and Adam could and would have sex.

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.”

Genesis 1: [2-28] ] So God created man in his own image, in the image of** God he created him; male and female he created them**. And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth."

What leads to to this errant position of yours?

Love and prayers.Pat
yes you are quite right the fall was pride, when adam and eve got pride in their heart they had fallen and that is why they fell. It wasn’t sex exactly that was just what they did afterwards.
 
This is a response to the original post.

Your question is very broad. Others have pointed you to resources that can paint the Catholic perspective on this.

I read a book from the Jewish Publication Society titled “Subversive Sequels” which offers a 1) Jewish and 2) feminist explanation of the Fall. I will try to give you a short overview of the explanation in this book.

In the first creation account, man and woman are portrayed as equals and made in the image and likeness of God. (Gen 1:1 -2:3).

In the second creation account starting at Gen 2:4, Eve seems to feel second-class, the author says, because until the sin itself, God does not address Eve, but only Adam. So, there is kind of a tension there, Eve being the supposed feminist that she was. And, the special reason for her disobedience is what I (not the author) would describe as that put forth in the New Testament, in James 1, namely, temptation beguiled by opportunity. So, the serpent (Jews don’t take the serpent as representing Satan) provided the opportunity, but Eve was anxious to regain her status (supposedly) as a co-equal with Adam, as originally depicted in the first creation account.

The author distinguishes that Solomon, for example, achieved a “knowledge of good and evil” by study and prayer, supposedly, NOT here as Adam and Eve did, by disobeying God.

The author’s explanation is much more expansive, going into several details, including how Eve may have perceived her childbearing as partially restoring her status, by participating in the divine act of creation. To support this, the author notes the particular expression of Eve in Gen 4:1: " The man had relations with his wife Eve, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have produced a man with the help of the LORD.” NAB.

See? See how Eve SEEMS to elevate herself to the level of God, not giving Adam any credit for the birth of her son!! just her and God!!

In my usual hasty first reading of this book, I may have overlooked a lot, and so I offer my apology to the author and to anyone that I may be misleading. The author analyzes the Biblical accounts of other (Jewish) women, who seem also to be longing for a restoration of that idyllic, unmitigated equality asserted in Gen 1.

So, now you have the sense of the book’s title, where the author is looking for a later Biblical account to subvert or overthrow an earlier account. I don’t recall that she asserts that any women manage to overthrow the disparaging account of Eve in Genesis.

An easier subversive sequel to relate is that of God’s statement or condemnation of Adam, that he will till the soil by the sweat of his brow and barely eek out an existence. But, the subversive or overturning sequel comes up pretty quickly, because Abel is Adam’s son, and he is a herder of animals. This offers the hope of overturning the curses of God on Adam and Eve for their disobedience. But, that does not completely overturn the effects of the Fall, any more than does Eve’s childbearing.

but according to this author, we sense the movement, the unmistakable movement towards a subversive sequel.

And, of course, the author being Jewish, her horizon is limited by the Jewish faith, and she hasn’t offered any perspective on the possibility of subversive sequels in the New Testament. For example, the barring of the path of mankind to the Tree of Life (which the Jews interpret as the Torah) which occurs in Genesis may have as a subversive sequel the discussion in the last chapter of Revelation, which mentions the TOL explicity.

Anyway, this discussion of “the Fall” gives a lot more complexity to it than perhaps a casual reading would suggest. running out of space, see my following post.
 
I’m so close to some other interesting points. I think I can get away with this post as bearing on the thread topic.

Notice in the quote of Gen 4:1, the word LORD is capitalized, indicating that Eve has spoken the most holy name of God, represented by YHWH, the Tetragrammaton.

The use of that term for God is a departure from the use of Elohim which is used in the first creation account. So, Eve is the first person in the Bible to use this most holy, sacred Name!

We are left speechless about how she learned this and the casual way in which she uses it.

The first creation account is attributed to the P or priestly document that was rolled into Genesis. The second account of creation is attributed to the J or Y or Yahwist document, which characteristically uses the Tetragrammaton for referring to God.

This gets more interesting in Exodus, where God reveals His most holy Name to Moses, as if Moses had never heard that name before. This make it awkward, at the least, to assign the authorship of Genesis to Moses, who we would think would not make a contradictory claim like that, that this Name was a new revelation, when Eve was Name-dropping back in Genesis. And, the explanation offered is that Exodus goes back to the Priestly document, which is unaware of that Name of God.

This sort of insight is in another book from the Jewish Publication Society called “The Divine Symphony” which focuses on such contradictions and points out just how frequently they occur in the OT. And, that author’s upshot of that is reflected in the book title, that that’s the way it is, that’s how God inspired the writing, and we are to respect and learn from these.

He quotes a verse from the psalms somewhere to explain this, where God says that He spoke to Israel once, and Israel heard two things. That is something to deeply ponder, certainly about the Fall.
 
I’m so close to some other interesting points. I think I can get away with this post as bearing on the thread topic.

Notice in the quote of Gen 4:1, the word LORD is capitalized, indicating that Eve has spoken the most holy name of God, represented by YHWH, the Tetragrammaton.

The use of that term for God is a departure from the use of Elohim which is used in the first creation account. So, Eve is the first person in the Bible to use this most holy, sacred Name!

We are left speechless about how she learned this and the casual way in which she uses it.

The first creation account is attributed to the P or priestly document that was rolled into Genesis. The second account of creation is attributed to the J or Y or Yahwist document, which characteristically uses the Tetragrammaton for referring to God.

This gets more interesting in Exodus, where God reveals His most holy Name to Moses, as if Moses had never heard that name before. This make it awkward, at the least, to assign the authorship of Genesis to Moses, who we would think would not make a contradictory claim like that, that this Name was a new revelation, when Eve was Name-dropping back in Genesis. And, the explanation offered is that Exodus goes back to the Priestly document, which is unaware of that Name of God.

This sort of insight is in another book from the Jewish Publication Society called “The Divine Symphony” which focuses on such contradictions and points out just how frequently they occur in the OT. And, that author’s upshot of that is reflected in the book title, that that’s the way it is, that’s how God inspired the writing, and we are to respect and learn from these.

He quotes a verse from the psalms somewhere to explain this, where God says that He spoke to Israel once, and Israel heard two things. That is something to deeply ponder, certainly about the Fall.
This is true, Eve was condemned because she used God’s name which must never be uttered. This is very interesting her uttering of Gods name which must be foreever be kept secret to humans, was an expression of her pride.

The fall into sin was pride in using Gods name.
 
To clarify this, the fall was because we decided that “I” know better, that “I” know right from wrong, that “I” should decide my own fate, that “I” am the center of my own being, creation and God… that is what the fall is about. Jesus told us the opposite that to put “others” ahead of yourself is paramount, “others” needs, “others” desires, “others” everything, and who is the “other” we should hold first forth in our lives? Jesus explains this as well, and it boils down to Our Lord Our God and Our Neighbor. You see just how opposite the two are? Total polar opposites and this is what it’s about…
 
To clarify this, the fall was because we decided that “I” know better, that “I” know right from wrong, that “I” should decide my own fate, that “I” am the center of my own being, creation and God… that is what the fall is about. Jesus told us the opposite that to put “others” ahead of yourself is paramount, “others” needs, “others” desires, “others” everything, and who is the “other” we should hold first forth in our lives? Jesus explains this as well, and it boils down to Our Lord Our God and Our Neighbor. You see just how opposite the two are? Total polar opposites and this is what it’s about…
Which basically is what EVERY sin that we commit boils down to…
 
This is true, Eve was condemned because she used God’s name which must never be uttered. This is very interesting her uttering of Gods name which must be foreever be kept secret to humans, was an expression of her pride.

The fall into sin was pride in using Gods name.
How do you figure Eve was condemned? God’s name would be used in love since Adam and Eve were in friendship with God.
 
To clarify this, the fall was because we decided that “I” know better, that “I” know right from wrong, that “I” should decide my own fate, that “I” am the center of my own being, creation and God… that is what the fall is about. Jesus told us the opposite that to put “others” ahead of yourself is paramount, “others” needs, “others” desires, “others” everything, and who is the “other” we should hold first forth in our lives? Jesus explains this as well, and it boils down to Our Lord Our God and Our Neighbor. You see just how opposite the two are? Total polar opposites and this is what it’s about…
The original sin was in direct relationship to God.

Adam could live in friendship with God only by free submission to God. Remember that the first thing one learns about Adam is that he is created “in the image of God.” Adam is called to share through knowledge and love in God’s own life. It was for this end that Adam was created. Adam, the first created human being, is called to a covenant with his Creator, to offer Him a response of faith and love.

Adam, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and chose to directly disobey God’s command. Thus, Adam preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned his Creator.

Blessings,
granny

Human life is meant for eternal life.
 
General question.

Is there anyone else, besides myself, who has the feeling that the difference between Adam’s original sin and personal sin is unintentionally being downplayed?
:confused:
 
How do you figure Eve was condemned? God’s name would be used in love since Adam and Eve were in friendship with God.
Yes you are right, she was not condemned because she was our mother, it is only for us sinful beings that the name cannot be uttered.
 
General question.

Is there anyone else, besides myself, who has the feeling that the difference between Adam’s original sin and personal sin is unintentionally being downplayed?
:confused:
I don’t understand the question.
 
This is true, Eve was condemned because she used God’s name which must never be uttered. This is very interesting her uttering of Gods name which must be foreever be kept secret to humans, was an expression of her pride.

The fall into sin was pride in using Gods name.
The Fall was caused by disobedience. Disobedience is sin. God forbade them to eat fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The serpent (Satan) deceived/tricked Eve into eating it, but Adam ate the fruit in order to please Eve. Adam was not deceived. Instead, he chose to please Eve rather than to obey God’s command.

Genesis 3:46
Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

Genesis 3:12-14
11 And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”
12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”
13 And the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
14 So the LORD God said to the serpent:
“ Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;

Notice how Adam blames Eve and Eve blames the serpent? 😃
 
Have we really grasped what happened at "The Fall"and the consequences etc - any comments,opinions,ideas,observations, conclusions etc - twinc
Yes, at the fall, man rejected the only true Good and source of his life and happiness for lesser, created goods. The result is a “lesser” kind of life, where we can experience both the good of Gods creation and the evil of being separated from Him-in a world essentially in rebellion against Him. And now, during his exile from God in this life we have, man has the opportunity to learn of his loss, to gain the wisdom to recognize his need for Him and come to fathom His inestimable worth, and turn back to Him.
 
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