The family bed

[Carmetta]

There is an actual parenting style in which parent/spouses needs are met first. I only bring it up because the following quotes:

foreverblessed:

Children need to start learning boundaries, and the line should be clearly drawn. These lines don’t need to be drawn for the 6 day old child. But, they must eventually be drawn. I have heard stories of the family bed concept for children up to ages 10 or so, or for muliple children. Cannot understand how this teaches the children boundaries. Also, do not understand how this does not teach them that they come first, and mommy and daddy will drop anyting for them (even outside of the emergency situation).

and

foreverblessed:

I’ll say it again, it al comes down to priorities. The children must see that your spouse comes before them. The arrangement of the proper priorities does not mean that in way, shape or form, the children’s needs are unmet. I come home from work and kiss my wife first, then the kids. The kids do not interrupt my wife or talk back to her without receiving my disapproval. She does the same for me.

Made me think of parenting style of babywise (aka Ezzo Parenting). I am in no way saying that your family uses this parenting style (since you stated that you believe you take a little from AP) and there are some controversial aspects such as Parent-Directed Feeding, but I thought I would bring it up (wish I could find a good site that explains this style just in case anyone was interested in this approach of parenting. It is a more parent-needs are met first so children’s needs will then be properly met approach.

Again I am not specifically saying this is the parenting style your subsribe to, just that there are people who do subscribe to parents needs met first the children’s.

 

[The_Rigbys]

daniellet:

I know that children come from the marital union, but that doesn’t mean that their needs are secondary. The needs of a spouse and the needs of children are quite different.

I don’t think children’s needs are secondary. Nor am I concerned about having to choose between the needs of various family members. When it comes down to it, I believe that God takes care of all our needs. Therefore, as a wife and mother, I have confidence that He will show me the needs I have to meet in my family, and provide the means for me to meet them. (Thank God. If I thought otherwise, I’d be a basket case! )

Now, “wants” or “preferences” are a different thing altogether. That’s where we might start doing some prioritizing. Still, that doesn’t mean that the parents always come first, even in those areas. In practice, it’s more like “reminding ourselves to make some time for mom and dad’s relationship.” Those little ones are so darn cute, they can easily get all the attention. But we know that, without a solid foundation of spousal love and marital happiness, we wouldn’t have so much love to give them.

BTW, I know that some people think babies and toddlers don’t have any “wants” or “preferences,” only “needs.” For various reasons, I choose to disagree. I think that would be a topic for a different thread though. (And I doubt we’d get very far discussing it.)

Bottom line - If the family bed meets the needs of your family, then go for it.

 

[The_Hidden_Life]

Can we all stop pretending for a minute that we live in 1st Century Palestine? Or 6th Century Polynesia? Or whatever sort of utopia fits your fancy? Just because a particular practice is “natural” doesn’t mean it is necessarily good. We live in the 21st Century, in an industrialized nation, most of us live in detached homes with several rooms and our husbands leave the home for work at some point in the day. Yes, some few of us work the land or live in yurts or whatever, but parenting styles do change with the culture and it is normal that they should change.

My husband and I have shared our bed with our infant (and toddler and preschooler at times) daughters, but we draw the line at issues of modesty and the primacy of our marriage relationship.

I am really shocked at all the negative comments foreverblessed have been getting about putting their marriage first. Surely you don’t think they are waltzing around their home gazing into each other’s eyes while the little ones beg for a crust of bread reminding them with piteous voices that it’s dinnertime? I think it is a shame they are being lambasted for their thoughts. They’ve been compared to Protestants (negatively), contraceptive users (selfish!) and portrayed as in opposition to the image of the Holy Family.

In regards to the Holy Family, I venture to say that if Mary and Joseph had been called to normal marital intimacy that they would have done so with utmost modesty and care for the innocence of their child. Just because other “natural” cultures did not care a whit if anyone was looking does not mean it was or is a good practice. Surely we can grow out of our cave people behaviors and improve upon them?

Like many issues, to simplify one’s rule of life to “God first, spouse second, children third and the rest of the world next” invites criticism because life is much more complicated than one sentence can describe.

Husbands are called to sacrifice themselves for their wives as Christ did for the Church. Wives are called to be submissive to their husbands. There is a divine hierarchy here where spouses are distinct but equal.

Why is it so hard to understand then that our roles as spouses and parents are also hierarchical, distinct and yet equal?

 

[SteveG]

The Hidden Life:

Can we all stop pretending for a minute that we live in 1st Century Palestine? Or 6th Century Polynesia? Or whatever sort of utopia fits your fancy? Just because a particular practice is “natural” doesn’t mean it is necessarily good. We live in the 21st Century, …

I think you badly miss the point here. In this thread (started with the intent of asking why those who practice it think the family bed is ‘Catholic’), the following comments have been made…
*
Nope everthing inside me says family bed is no good.

I believe that this is in line with permissive parenting, and dangerous.

Marie (not MarieG) has repeatedly warned us in this and other threads that we are going to kill our children by rolling over on them.*

…In the context of such comments, the practices of earlier times and modern less developed societies are highlighted only to show that this is ‘normal’ human practice throughout most of the world and most of history.

Further, I doubt you’d get an argument from family bed folks that JUST because a thing is natural, it is good. But the flip is also true. Just because modern western circumstances allow for separate sleeping does not mean that is good. Each issue s/b evaluated on its merits.

let me rephrase your criticism here on another topic and see if you’ll buy it as being dismissive of a that practice…

*** Can we all stop pretending for a minute that we live in 1st Century Palestine? Or 6th Century Polynesia? Or whatever sort of utopia fits your fancy? Just because a particular practice is “natural” doesn’t mean it is necessarily good. We live in the 21st Century, in an industrialized nation, effective widespread contraception is available and affordable. Yes, some few of us practice NFP or the rhythym methods or whatever, but sexual practices do change with the culture and it is normal that they should change.

---

Um, I don’t think so. Dismissing our arguments on such grounds simply doesn’t cut it.
The Hidden Life:

…but we draw the line at issues of modesty and the primacy of our marriage relationship.

And what good Catholic doesn’t try to do so? What’s your point?
The Hidden Life:

I am really shocked at all the negative comments foreverblessed have been getting about putting their marriage first…I think it is a shame they are being lambasted for their thoughts…

Firstly, whose ‘lambasting’ them. There is a discussion going on about the proper understanding of familial relationships. For the most part, the discussion on both sides has been measured and thoughtful (with a few exceptions on both sides). Here is the thinking that is being taken issue with. These again are comments from those being addressed…

• I’ll say it again, it al comes down to priorities. The children must see that your spouse comes before them.
  
  To set the record straight, we love our children dearly, but love and cherish each other first.
  
  The truth of the matter is, that we love them so much that we choose to hold our marriage in high priority. * (implying that others do not).

…We all know that marriage is the foundation of the family, but the understanding evidenced above says more and merits discussion.
The Hidden Life:

In regards to the Holy Family, I venture to say that if Mary and Joseph had been called to normal marital intimacy that they would have done so with utmost modesty and care for the innocence of their child. Just because other “natural” cultures did not care a whit if anyone was looking does not mean it was or is a good practice. Surely we can grow out of our cave people behaviors and improve upon them?

I’ll ask again what your point is? Where did you get the idea that most family bed folks are having a romp in front of their children? Family bed certainly doesn’t equate to ‘cave people’ behavior.

 

[kirabira]

hehe. hi to all you co-sleepers =)

I think there seem to be so many ideas that have formed in the minds of non-co-sleepers that they arent so receptive to breaking that idea in their heads. Family bed doesnt mean everyone is in bed going to sleep together. Family bed doesnt somehow mean your child never falls asleep on his/her own. Family bed doesnt mean your child can’t sleep alone. Family bed doesnt mean you dont have alone time with your spouse. Our children are in bed at 8 and have been GREAT about falling asleep for the night at 8 since birth-- which I think has to do with family bed. I think the children are so secure and have learned ‘how to sleep’ from co-sleeping that they have never resisted the idea of ‘bedtime’.
Our children at 17mos and 3 yrs both start the night in their own rooms now and its really rare that they are in our bed- but thats not because we taught them to sleep alone and away from us and set ‘boundaries’. I think its because we’ve nurtured them, co-slept with them, taught them by example of how to sleep, given them that security that they have taken this with them into their own beds. It seems to me that your baby needs to reach that developmental milestone of realizing that mommy is still there when baby cant see mommy-- mommy is in another room etc. Making sleeping apart an issue before baby can comprehend doesnt make sense if you are doing AP.
as for this whole idea of heirarchy i just read something recently about this that tied it in with catholic theology and the essay was refuting the idea that you put your spouse before your children and that you need to teach your children how low they are on the totem pole. I’ll ask my DH if he knows where this was. The gist was that we should be more actively trying to reflect the trinity- using the trinity as the model for our family life. We need to fullfill our roles as spouses and parents-- its not an either or and your relationship should be more than ‘intimate time’ – marriage is 24/7, its something you model all day–Those of us with a family bed know that our relationship with our spouse isnt hindered by family bed practice-- but if your only time for talking with your spouse or interacting in a meaningful way is bedtime then I can understand how you could get the idea that we arent putting our marriage first.

-K

 

[foreverblessed]

I apologize to all of you co-sleepers out there. I did not mean to offend you or accuse you of not loving your spouse. Although I did say: “The truth of the matter is, that we love them so much that we choose to hold our marriage in high priority. In our minds, what better time to do this when they are sound asleep,” I also said: “To set the record straight, we love our children dearly, but love and cherish each other first. It sounds like many of you co-sleepers do the same, just in a different way.” Please don’t try to pick apart what I have written or draw offence to it. As I have tried to say before in one way or another, I am attempting to understand this philosophy and to learn more about the teachings of our faith.

Everybody comes from their own experiences. Our experience was this: during our sacrament of Holy Matrimony, the priest said what we thought was a beautiful and profound homily. He spoke about the specific order of priorities (God, spouse, then children). He then gave the example of when a husband comes home from work; he stated that his first responsibility was to kiss his wife then the children. We have been practicing this and it has been working for us.

Last night we were searching the Catechism for something to back this us. We were unable to find a direct tie. We are working on contacting the priest who married us (he has changed parishes). We are hoping he will give us some concrete background as to where this came from and perhaps join us on this forum. Anyone who does believe in this order of priorities please help us out here. Also I am calling all priest and deacons to put in there opinion on where the Church stands on this as well. This is no longer seems to really be about the family bed but yet an order of priorities.

One more thing, I am not good with words or expressing myself how I would like to, but I will try to make clear that we believe that as individuals, a husband must put his wife first, and a wife her husband. Then as a union, as one flesh, we are called to love, care for, and teach our children. Lets please speak from love and all do our best to refrain from criticizing. This includes both me and my husband.

 

[MamaAtHome]

There is one thing I simply do not understand about this discussion. What does co-sleeping have to do with where our priorities lie? Why would anyone assume that just because couple A has thier little ones in bed with them for most of the night that they are not putting their marriage as high a priority as couple B, who’s children are in a crib in their own room from birth? How does the catachism come into play on the co-sleeping issue? It’s not a moral or theological issue, is it?

You asked about co-sleeping, then turned it into a priority issue. One has NOTHING to do with the other. Maybe, we should talk about co-sleeping here, and start a new discussion for the God/Spouse/Children discussion?

 

[foreverblessed]

“You asked about co-sleeping, then turned it into a priority issue. One has NOTHING to do with the other. Maybe, we should talk about co-sleeping here, and start a new discussion for the God/Spouse/Children discussion?”
Mamaathome

To us we see a direct relationship. Continue to talk about the bed, I’ll start another thead on priorities when I get a moment. If someone else want to go ahaid and get one started please do.

Sorry for any confussion.

 

[darcee]

I was told that I was “equating crib-users to contraceptors”

Note that I in no way did that. What I did say was “The attitude that the babies can’t be in our bed because it cuts into our intimate time is the exact same argument I hear when people claim they HAVE to use the pill because they need to be sexually available to each other all the time for the good of their marriage”

As I have said before. I don’t care if you use a crib or not. If you use a crib because you fear oversleeping the child, you are a heavy or light sleeper, you aren’t breastfeeding for some reason, you are very overweight, your spouse is adamantly opposed to it, you have a small bed, you gave birth to triplets… or even that you just don’t want to is FINE. It is not the crib that is the issue. I certainly won’t say using it makes you bad parent. foreverblessed on the other hand has claimed that family bed is permissive parenting and dangerous.

But if you are of the opinion that a family bed wouldn’t work for your family because you think it is wrong on the grounds that children are an enemy to your marital intimacy then you ARE using the exact same argument that people who use ABC do. They say they must use ABC in order to protect their intimate time from children.
This wasn’t said with the intent of offending, but just to point out that the argument of putting parental relationship needs over children’s relationship needs is contrary to the nature of family and works against the culture of life.

And to clarify… No one who uses family bed on this forum has advocated that children be exposed to anything contrary to the “utmost modesty and care for the innocence of their child.” I have never known ANYONE who uses family bed who would think for a second of tripping the light fantastic while their child looked on. I would dare say that those who use family bed and especially those who are Catholic are very concerned about the innocence of their children.

To put it bluntly. No one is saying that children should be more exposed to the intimacy of their parents but that children’s needs should not be placed lower in order to provide more time for parental intimacy.

-D

 

[MamaAtHome]

To us we see a direct relationship.

I have no doubt, from what you’ve shared here, that you see a direct relationship in your OWN marriage. It is simply impossible for you to say that, with co-sleepers, since our babies sleep with us, that our marriage does not take top priority after God. You can only draw from your own experience. And from what you have shared, you see sleeping with your little ones as negative blow to your martial relationship.

I completely and totally agree with you on the God/Spouse/Children part, and my husband and I both know our marrige takes first priority after God in this house. We work very lovingly at our relationship each day. Having our babies in bed with us has no effect whatsoever on where our priorities lie, and those priorities for us are God/Spouse/Children.

 

[darcee]

Foreverblessed,

My above reply was written before I saw yours but I am leaving it to address the concerns of others bout what I had said…

But thank you for sharing where you are coming from… that is helpful.

-D

 

[SteveG]

foreverblessed:

As I have tried to say before in one way or another, I am attempting to understand this philosophy and to learn more about the teachings of our faith.

I wonder if a forum is the way to learn such things adequetely. We can give you some hints and thoughts, but there is a foundational philosophy in our parenting approach that underpins these practices.

I’ll suggest again, if you are really interested in learning about this, you’d do far better to read a book (Greg Popcak’s ‘Parenting with Grace’) to understand this. Whether you agree with this approach or not, this would do better to give you the big picture you can’t see on a forum discussion.

 

[jess7396]

OK, just read through the whole thread, and Maryat Home spoke exactly what I was thinking. A bed is a piece of furniture, that’s it!

Sounds to me like, #1- some people only spend time alone with their spouse in bed #2- some people restrict the “marital embrace” to their bed. I think it needs to be realized that not every home/partnership/family functions in the same ways. Even before our children came into our lives, dh and I used our bed for sleeping, we never chatted in bed, and other “activities” were never restricted to the bed, so there was no issue of the children “coming in between us” by sleeping in our beds, SLEEP IS SLEEP!

When we do want “intimate time” I let ds fall asleep on the floor of the Living Room, then we go to our bed, that’s our preferred spot right now, with a preschooler and toddler around too (they sleep in their own rooms, but they aren’t locked in there, YK?)

I think this idea that the bed is some sacred thing, is just not true for people who are open to co-sleeping- surely if my dh and I never had time alone, other than in bed, and could never be intimate elsewhere- co-sleeping would be a problem, but- we spend a couple of hours together most nights, downstairs, when the kids are sleeping, we talk, we laugh, we eat ice cream. I already described how “special time” works.

Why the idea that co-sleeping affects ones marriage? Just b/c it would affect yours? For people who use the bed for sleep alone, there really is no issue.

As far as God- Spouse- Children- did anyone start that thread, I’d be interested to talk about that too .

As far as the safety of co-sleeping- PLEASE do the research if you want to talk about that, I understand for the person who has lost friends babies to parental rollover, but please know- co-sleeping when done safely is LESS risky to infants than crib sleeping.

As far as when they will leave the family bed it will differ for each child/family. My 4 and 2 year olds don’t sleep with us anymore, outside of thunderstorms, wet beds , someone being sick, etc.

Family bed is NOT for everyone, esp. not when spouses disagree, but when both parents agree, family bed is such a beautiful thing .