The Fewness of Those Catholics Saved

[Lamafacaja]

I have read the diary. Here are some excerpts.

'One day, I saw two roads. One was broad, covered with sand and flowers, full of joy, music and all sorts of pleasures. People walked along it, dancing and enjoying themselves. They reached the end** without realizing it.** And at the end of the road there was a horrible precipice; that is, the abyss of hell. The souls fell blindly into it; as they walked, so they fell.

**And their number was so great that it was impossible to count them.
**
And I saw the other road, or rather, a path, for it was narrow and strewn with thorns and rocks; and the people who walked along it had tears in their eyes, and all kinds of suffering befell them. Some fell down upon the rocks, but stood up immediately and went on. At the end of the road there was a magnificent garden filled with all sorts of happiness, and all these souls entered there. At the very first instant they forgot all their sufferings.’

‘Tell sinners that no one shall escape My Hand; if they run away from My Merciful Heart, they will fall into My Just Hands. Tell sinners that I am always waiting for them, that I listen intently to the beating of their heart… when will it beat for Me? Write, that I am speaking to them through their remorse of conscience, through their failures and sufferings, through thunderstorms, through the voice of the Church. And if they bring all My graces to naught, I begin to be angry with them, leaving them alone and giving them what they want.’

‘If they will not adore My mercy, they will perish for all eternity. . .’

‘God does not give himself to a chattering soul which, like a drone in a beehive, buzzes around but gathers no honey. A talkative soul is empty inside. It lacks both the essential virtues and intimacy with God. A deeper interior life, one of gentle peace and of that silence where the Lord dwells, is quite out of the question. A soul that has never tasted the sweetness of inner silence is a restless spirit which disturbs the silence of others.** I have seen many souls in the depths of hell for not having kept their silence; they told me so themselves when I asked them what was the cause of their undoing.**’

‘They use My graces to offend Me. There are souls who despise My graces as well as all the proofs of My love. They do not wish to hear My call, but proceed into the abyss of hell.’

‘. . . And I started to enumerate the pains of my heart; that is, how greatly concerned I am for all mankind, that "they all do not know You, and those who do know You do not love You as You deserve to be loved. I also see how terribly sinners offend You; and then again, I see how severely the faithful, especially Your servants, are oppressed and persecuted. And then, too, I see many souls rushing headlong into the terrible abyss of hell.’

‘Then I saw a soul which was being separated from its body amid great torment. O Jesus, as I am about to write this, I tremble at the sight of the horrible things that bear witness against him… I saw the souls of little children and those of older ones, about nine years of age, emerging from some kind of a muddy abyss. The souls were foul and disgusting, resembling the most terrible monsters and decaying corpses.’

'Today, I was led by an angel to the chasms of hell. It is a place of great torture; how awesomely large and extensive it is!

The kinds of tortures I saw: the first torture that constitutes hell is the loss of God; the second is perpetual remorse of conscience; the third is that one’s condition will never change; the fourth is the fire that will penetrate the soul without destroying it – a terrible suffering, since it is a purely spiritual fire, lit by God’s anger; the fifth torture is continual darkness and a terrible suffocating smell, and, despite the darkness, the devils and the souls of the damned see each other and all the evil, both of others and their own; the sixth torture is the constant company of Satan; the seventh torture is the horrible despair, hatred of God, vile words, curses and blasphemies.

These are the tortures suffered by all the damned together, but that is not the end of the sufferings. There are special tortures destined for particular souls. These are the torments of the senses.

Each soul undergoes terrible and indescribable sufferings, related to the manner in which it has sinned.

There are caverns and pits of torture where one form of agony differs from another. I would have died at the very sight of these tortures if the omnipotence of God had not supported me.

Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin.

I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like. I, Sister Faustina, by the order of God, have visited the abysses of hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence. I cannot speak about it now; but I have received a command from God to leave it in writing. The devils were full of hatred for me, but they had to obey me at the command of God. What I have written is but a pale shadow of the things I saw. But I noticed one thing: that most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell. When I came to, I could hardly recover from the fright. How terribly souls suffer there! Consequently, I pray even more fervently for the conversion of sinners. I incessantly plead God’s mercy upon them. O my Jesus, I would rather be in agony until the end of the world, amidst the greatest sufferings, than offend You by the least sin.’

The Diary of St. Faustina Kowalska

I’ve read her diary, too. She also states the Our Lord calls to the dying person three times, and if they turn to him even the least bit, they will be saved. So she says that, too.

 

[Shin]

Pepipop do you really think the saints who related these things didn’t think of what you thought of?

FWIF…

It seems to me that many people find it a very hard thing to repent, and thus the refusal of mercy at the end of life. We see it in our everyday lives – people are unwilling to change and admit error in the light of the truth. They are lost in the small rather than looking to the large, the fundamental.

I think to myself… people are dying yes… so they are more ready to have a pretense of giving certain things up, but these things are already lost since they are dying… but what if they lived on a single day… a week… a month…

Would they give these things up… is it true repentance? People living in adulterous ‘marriages’, vice after vice… so many mortal sins… against modesty… purity… humility… obedience… Perhaps at the moment of death some of them might make a pretense of giving it up, but they never would if not for death no? Separate from the person they’ve lived with for years, give up impure looks, dress modestly, obey the laws of the Church… They would go right back to it.

I know that I have to work harder myself from not making ‘wishful thinking’ repentance. That is, repentance for a minute, until temptation comes, rather than a real determination for good no matter what pressures come. God help my soul.

As the tree falls, so shall it lie. As the sinner walks, so shall he fall. What we do, is what we will. What we will, is what we truly want to do. What we truly want to do, is what we truly prefer.

The love of God is evidenced in the works.

Sin is rejection of God. Sin is not love of God. To say one can sin and embrace God at once is a contradiction. The will does one thing or another.

We are put to a simple test. If we want more people to choose God, we have to put our all into it, and not pretend that everyone can rest easy and ‘only truly evil people’ from the standpoint of the world, go to Hell. This is the really false standard people are working from. The great deception that puts so many people into living comfortably in sin, and so many others who should know better letting it be, because it’s ‘too much trouble’ otherwise.

People view matters by what the world considers good and evil, not what God and the Church consider truly good and evil, and so rather than entertain a proper hope, entertain a false one. They want people to go to Heaven without giving up sin, without loving God truly. But the cost of Heaven is the cross. The love of God is to do His will. They don’t understand how bad it is out there… how bad it is, is not something to drive to despair, but to be acknowledged so it can be dealt with – so that vice can truly be rejected and virtue, the love of God, truly be lived.

“The greatest proof we can have in this life that we in the grace of God, is not sensible love of Him, but the firm resolution never to consent to any sin great or small.”

St. Francis de Sales

'It is true that when we have recourse to God with confidence in dangerous temptations, He assists us; but, in certain very urgent occasions, the Lord sometimes wishes that we cooperate, and do violence to ourselves to resist temptations. On such occasions, it will not be enough to have recourse to God once or twice; it will be necessary to multiply prayers, and frequently to prostrate ourselves, and send up our sighs before the image of the Blessed Virgin and the Crucifix, crying out with tears: Mary, my mother, assist me; Jesus, my Savior, save me; for Thy mercy’s sake, do not abandon me - do not permit me to lose Thee.

Let us keep in mind the words of the Gospel: “How narrow is the gate and straight is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it” - (Matthew 7:14). The way to Heaven is straight and narrow: they who wish to arrive at that place of bliss by walking in the paths of pleasure shall be disappointed; and therefore few reach it, because few are willing to use violence to themselves in resisting temptations. “The kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence, and the violent bear it away” - (Matthew 11:12). In explaining this passage, a certain writer says: “Vi queritur, invaditur, occupatur.” It (Heaven) must be sought for and obtained by violence: he who wishes to obtain it without inconvenience, or by leading a soft and irregular life, shall not acquire it - he shall be excluded from it.

To save their souls, some of the saints have retired into the cloister; some have confined themselves in a cave; others have embraced torments and death. “The violent bear it away.” Some complain of their want of confidence in God; but they do not perceive that their diffidence arises from the weakness of their resolution to serve God. Saint Teresa used to say: “Of irresolute souls the Devil has no fear.” And the wise man has declared, that “desires kill the slothful” - (Proverbs 21:25). Some would wish to be saved and to become saints, but never resolve to adopt the means of salvation, such as meditation, the frequentation of the sacraments, detachment from creatures; or, if they adopt these means, they soon give them up. In a word, they are satisfied with fruitless desires, and thus continue to live in enmity with God, or at least in tepidity, which, in the end, leads them to the loss of God. Thus in them are verified the words of the Holy Ghost, “desires kill the slothful”

If, then, we wish to save our souls, and to become saints, we must make a strong resolution, not only in general to give ourselves to God, but also in particular to adopt the proper means, and never to abandon them after having once taken them up. Hence we must never cease to pray to Jesus Christ, and to His holy Mother, for holy perseverance.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

 

[Ceil-1]

The problem with the message is that it leads one to despair.

Perhaps the ones it leads to despair are not the ones who need to hear that message.

In any case, it is a message without hope. Not at all like the Gospel message which is a perfect balance between warning and hope.

Another holy saint, the Little Flower, had the Bible and one other book, the Imitation of Christ, as the only books she needed.

Another saint, I forget who, maybe St. Francis De Sales, mentioned that spiritual directors need to be careful not to “break a bruised reed”.

So, all the “mini-pope-wannabe’s” warning us to take heed to the writing of the saints should heed all the saints, not just those that strike their fancy.

So there! :dts:

 

[At_Trent]

I’d guess her work will be cited in the salvation of a few souls as well

 

[Lamafacaja]

C’mon Shin, what of the other things that St. Faustina said? What about how quickly God wants to embrace the sinner on their death beds at the last moment? What about St Paul who wrote Romans 7?

How about a little good news. The Gospel IS good news, isn’t it?

[6] But now we are loosed from the law of death, wherein we were detained; so that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. [7] What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? God forbid. But I do not know sin, but by the law; for I had not known concupiscence, if the law did not say: Thou shalt not covet. [8] But sin taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. [9] And I lived some time without the law. But when the commandment came, sin revived, [10] And I died. And the commandment that was ordained to life, the same was found to be unto death to me.

[8] “Sin, taking occasion by the commandment”… Sin, or concupiscence, which is called sin, because it is from sin, and leads to sin, which was asleep before, was weakened by the prohibition: the law not being the cause thereof, nor properly giving occasion to it: but occasion being taken by our corrupt nature to resist the commandment laid upon us.

[11] For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, seduced me, and by it killed me. [12] Wherefore the law indeed is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. [13] Was that then which is good, made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it may appear sin, by that which is good, wrought death in me; that sin, by the commandment, might become sinful above measure. [14] For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin. [15] For that which I work, I understand not. For I do not that good which I will; but the evil which I hate, that I do.

[13] “That it may appear sin”… viz. To be the monster it is, which is even capable to take occasion from that which is good, to work death.

[15] “I do not that good which I will”… The apostle here describes the disorderly motions of passion and concupiscence; which oftentimes in us get the start of reason: and by means of which even good men suffer in the inferior appetite what their will abhors: and are much hindered in the accomplishment of the desires of their spirit and mind. But these evil motions, (though they are called the law of sin, because they come from original sin, and violently tempt and incline to sin,) as long as the will does not consent to them, are not sins, because they are not voluntary.

[16] If then I do that which I will not, I consent to the law, that it is good. [17] Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. [18] For I know that there dwelleth not in me, that is to say, in my flesh, that which is good. For to will, is present with me; but to accomplish that which is good, I find not. [19] For the good which I will, I do not; but the evil which I will not, that I do. [20] Now if I do that which I will not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

[21] I find then a law, that when I have a will to do good, evil is present with me. [22] For I am delighted with the law of God, according to the inward man: [23] But I see another law in my members, fighting against the law of my mind, and captivating me in the law of sin, that is in my members. [24] Unhappy man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [25] The grace of God, by Jesus Christ our Lord. Therefore, I myself, with the mind serve the law of God; but with the flesh, the law of sin.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Reading one of my favorite sites this afternoon I came across the below article.
It may be worth a few minutes of your time to read and contemplate what this saint says about being saved.

wallmell.webs.com/FewSavedStLeonard.htm

She wrote this before she was canonized. So, in theory, she might not have been one of the saved at the time, and could have thus been mistaken.

Look, even the Pope, for crying out loud, is only infallible when teaching on Faith and Morals. If the Vicar of Christ is thus only “sure” on Faith and Morals, why would a woman (even a saint) be more infallible than the Pope?

 

[At_Trent]

Matthew 13:42: “And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Luke 16:23-26: “And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”

 

[Shin]

Mortification of curiosity is a good thing in general.

If the fewness of the saved causes you to despair, until you’ve corrected the fundamental problem within yourself that is the true source of it, you should not meditate upon it.

On the other hand, because you have a problem, does not mean that in general this particular truth should not be spoken about.

A comparison might be that, in NYC, and other places even worse, the abortion rate is 40%. This is quite hard to bear. But if we do not speak of it in general, we cannot correct it. Certainly some who cannot bear to think about it, should avoid thinking on it.

If people are dying everyday somewhere, this is hard to bear. But not telling anyone about it so that something can be done… well… Not telling the people themselves in danger of it… well…

'We have only short moments of this life to work for God’s glory. The devil knows this and that is why he tries to make us waste time in useless things. O, let us not waste our time! Let us save souls! Souls are falling into hell innumerable as the flakes of snow on a winter day. Jesus weeps!

Instead of consoling Him we are brooding over our own sorrows . . .’

St. Therese of Lisieux

‘Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.’

Luke 13:23-24

‘For many are called, but few chosen.’

Mark 20:16

‘The more the wicked abound, so much the more must we suffer with them in patience; for on the threshing floor few are the grains carried into the barns, but high are the piles of chaff burned with fire.’

Pope St. Gregory the Great, Doctor and Father of the Church

‘Christ’s flock is called “little” (Luke 12:32) in comparison with the greater number of the reprobates.’

St. Bede the Venerable, Doctor and Father of the Church

‘The greater part of men will set no value on the blood of Christ, and will go on offending Him.’

St. Isidore of Seville, Doctor and Father of the Church

‘Get out of the filth of the horrible torrent of this world, the torrent of thorns that is whirling you into the abyss of eternal perdition. . . This torrent is the world, which resembles an impetuous torrent, full of garbage and evil odours, making a lot of noise but flowing swiftly passed, dragging the majority of men into the pit of perdition.’

St. John Eudes

For hope:

‘Dear Lord! To win my heart, from heaven Thou didst come; for me Thy blood didst shed, O King adored! and on our altars makest Thy home. So, if I may not here behold Thy Face, or catch the heavenly music of Thy Voice, I still can live, each moment, by Thy grace, and in Thy Sacred Heart I can rest.’

St. Therese of Liseux

 

[Lamafacaja]

Mortification of curiosity is a good thing in general.

If the fewness of the saved causes you to despair, until you’ve corrected the fundamental problem within yourself that is the true source of it, you should not meditate upon it.

On the other hand, because you have a problem, does not mean that in general this particular truth should not be spoken about.

A comparison might be that, in NYC, and other places even worse, the abortion rate is 40%. This is quite hard to bear. But if we do not speak of it in general, we cannot correct it. Certainly some who cannot bear to think about it, should avoid thinking on it.

If people are dying everyday somewhere, this is hard to bear. But not telling anyone about it so that something can be done… well… Not telling the people themselves in danger of it… well…

'We have only short moments of this life to work for God’s glory. The devil knows this and that is why he tries to make us waste time in useless things. O, let us not waste our time! Let us save souls! Souls are falling into hell innumerable as the flakes of snow on a winter day. Jesus weeps!

Instead of consoling Him we are brooding over our own sorrows . . .’

St. Therese of Lisieux

‘Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able.’

Luke 13:23-24

‘For many are called, but few chosen.’

Mark 20:16

‘The more the wicked abound, so much the more must we suffer with them in patience; for on the threshing floor few are the grains carried into the barns, but high are the piles of chaff burned with fire.’

Pope St. Gregory the Great, Doctor and Father of the Church

‘Christ’s flock is called “little” (Luke 12:32) in comparison with the greater number of the reprobates.’

St. Bede the Venerable, Doctor and Father of the Church

‘The greater part of men will set no value on the blood of Christ, and will go on offending Him.’

St. Isidore of Seville, Doctor and Father of the Church

‘Get out of the filth of the horrible torrent of this world, the torrent of thorns that is whirling you into the abyss of eternal perdition. . . This torrent is the world, which resembles an impetuous torrent, full of garbage and evil odours, making a lot of noise but flowing swiftly passed, dragging the majority of men into the pit of perdition.’

St. John Eudes

For hope:

‘Dear Lord! To win my heart, from heaven Thou didst come; for me Thy blood didst shed, O King adored! and on our altars makest Thy home. So, if I may not here behold Thy Face, or catch the heavenly music of Thy Voice, I still can live, each moment, by Thy grace, and in Thy Sacred Heart I can rest.’

St. Therese of Liseux

Yes, yes, of course many go to hell. But honestly you haven’t answered my question about the other things Faustina has said. I seriously know you wouldn’t want to misrepresent her.

 

[Carlan]

Christ is our joy; He is our hope. But this isn’t some kind of feel good religion. Catholicism’s hard stuff. The cross is hard. No getting around that.

Oh,Yes!, Christ’s Church is the hardest to live by and the easiest to die by.
Peace to all here, Carlan

 

[Shin]

C’mon Shin, what of the other things that St. Faustina said? What about how quickly God wants to embrace the sinner on their death beds at the last moment? What about St Paul who wrote Romans 7?

How about a little good news. The Gospel IS good news, isn’t it?

Would you mind asking again and more specifically about Romans 7 or anything else if you want to ask that?

You do realize that before the Gospel, no one at all went to Heaven. Ever? And that the fact that anyone at all can is in fact ‘the good news’?

The whole earth waited and groaned for a Savior…

Adam chose to rebel against God and so all his descendants are born in the enemy camp. In original sin. To quote scriptures, ‘children of wrath’.

As regards to the moment of death…

‘As in life’ so ‘in death’. So much focus on the moment of death but… ‘as in life’ so ‘in death’.

With all this mercy being offered, the saved are few. Because of this mercy – thankfully some few are saved.

Why is it so? Well then we have to consider the rest of what goes on, and not just mercy alone. You have to consider that there is mercy but there is more than just mercy affecting a person’s salvation.

These are not causes for despair. None of these are causes for despair. This is not about people’s emotions… we must not be a self centered people to make it so! As if the truth depended on feelings.

If fear of the Lord because of the fewness of the saved makes someone a better person, meditate upon it. If it does not, do not. But do not extrapolate so that everyone else is like yourself in feelings.

You -will- need fear of the Lord to make spiritual progress, but perhaps you should meditate on something different than the fewness of the saved if this is too much at the moment.

The positive motivation to gain from the fewness of the saved is very helpful. It motivates you to become like the few and not live everyday lives worldly people – instead to become a true Christian, who sacrifices things for Christ, giving up what the world thinks is good, and obeying what God says is good.

 

[Danny_OC]

There is a hierarchy of sources that our trust ought be placed in

Least trustworthy is one’s own intuitions and conclusions

Next is the advice of good friends: orthodox, devout Catholics you know

After that comes the writings of the saints

Even more trustworthy is Heaven speaking in an apparition

And at the top is the infallible teachings of the Catholic Church

The only reason the top two items in that list are not precisely equal is because some apparitions are false. But we often need not fear that, certainly not when these apparitions were given to a canonized saint. Especially with sources like the apparitions of Mary to St. Simon Stock, in which she said of the brown scapular “Whosoever dies clothed in this garment shall nto suffer eternal fire.” Our Lady is no liar. Wear your brown scapular and spread this devotion to others; you will be saved.

 

[Lamafacaja]

Would you mind asking again and more specifically about Romans 7 or anything else if you want to ask that?

We are wretched. God has loved us generously. That’s the Message there in Romans, it’s all the Divine Mercy message. I felt that for you to quote Faustina’s vision of Hell without presenting her full message of mercy causes a bit of a misrepresentation. You still haven’t answered my question here.

I’ve read her diary, too. She also states the Our Lord calls to the dying person three times, and if they turn to him even the least bit, they will be saved. So she says that, too.

 

[pepipop]

Pepipop do you really think the saints who related these things didn’t think of what you thought of?

Shin, I do not know what the saints thought of their revelations, however one story mentioned in the article was of a recently dead saint that appeared to a bishop stating few were saved, this may not be true as the bishop’s dream may have come from elsewhere. Also, as I stated earlier it was a ‘demon’ that told one priest- that if only the kings etc… knew how few were saved etc - which I found strange that a demon would give us the heads up . I think comments in other posts referring to saints becoming hermits so as to keep away from the world, would definately not have fit god’s plan as there would be no children if everyone had this calling - i.e. the human race would have died out. I suggest that some of the comments you make e.g.

“Would they give these things up… is it true repentance? People living in adulterous ‘marriages’, vice after vice… so many mortal sins… against modesty… purity… humility… obedience… Perhaps at the moment of death some of them might make a pretense of giving it up, but they never would if not for death no? Separate from the person they’ve lived with for years, give up impure looks, dress modestly, obey the laws of the Church… They would go right back to it.”

is being judgemental. of course I agree that all the above is sinful, however if someone was born into a family of drug addicted atheist parents that abused their children and although they marry and try their best and believe in god, their upbringing causes them to be ‘unfaithful’ as it was not instilled as of high moral value and hence they are more easily tempted than, for example, someone who was born into a catholic upbringing with parents married for life, good moral values instilled through schooling, church and so on.

Whilst most likely few are saved, I think this message coming from the saints that do their utmost as human beings on earth to worship god, by becoming hermits, praying continuously, etc… which I cannot see god wishing us all to do as he did request that we be fruitful and multiply, is overly ‘negative’ for want of a better word. Personal circumstances as to where a baby/soul is placed upon birth has to be taken into account when addressing individual’s ‘sins’ and these ‘sinners’ may still really wish to be with god at death.

 

[spencer2]

I don’t understand the part in st faustina’s diary about the children she saw in the muddy abyss. How can children do anything worthy of hell?

 

[Shin]

This one’s not for the curious or despair tending. Mortification of curiosity warning given!

‘Let us not doubt that baptized babies who die in their infant years will enter into the heavenly Kingdom. We should not, however, believe that all those infants who have begun to speak will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. For the entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven will be closed to many babies because of their parents’ bad rearing. In this city, there lives a certain man who is known to all; three years ago, this man had a son who, if I recall, would then have been about five years old, for whom he had such human love that he did not even try to discipline him.

For this reason, the boy, when someone prevented him from getting his way, used to blaspheme the magnificence of God—and let me emphasize that this is something dangerous.

When, three years ago, a deadly plague fell upon the region where he lived, this young boy succumbed to it and was near death. As eyewitnesses recounted, while the father took the child into his arms, the boy himself saw evil spirits coming for him. The boy began to tremble, to blink his eyes in fear, and to cry out in despair to his father: “Father, save me, protect me.” Simultaneously, as he cried, he turned his face towards his father’s chest, as though wanting to be hidden.

When the father saw his son trembling, in agony he asked him what he had seen. The son answered: “Black creatures came to me and wanted to take me away with them.” No sooner had he finished this phrase, than he immediately blasphemed the name of the Divine Magnificence and, with this blasphemy, expired.

Thus, God, the All-Powerful, in order to show by what sin the boy was given over to these evil servants, allowed him to die with this sin which his father, while the boy was alive, did nothing to prevent. And this boy whom God allowed, by His mercy, to live as a blasphemer, by His righteous judgment was also permitted to blaspheme at his death, so that his careless father might know well his sin. For this father, being indifferent to the soul of his young son, reared for the Gehenna of fire not an insignificant sinner, but a great sinner.’

Pope St. Gregory the Great

 

[Robert_Burns]

I don’t understand the part in st faustina’s diary about the children she saw in the muddy abyss. How can children do anything worthy of hell?

St John Bosco had a similar vision as well.

 

[Shin]

Lamafacaja I am trying to think of a way to get across that there is no conflict – this is the proper context that all has to come together in. I chose those quotes so people would put Mercy in the proper context, it’s not a conflict of emphasis – it’s a context.

I did emphasize what is seen as one side, but actually part of the whole, because people tend to be quite familiar with the other.

Let me see if I can expand on that a bit after some thought.

Pepipop, demons brag. What you are saying is that, it’s illogical and counterproductive for criminals to brag about their exploits, therefore criminals never brag. If only such logic actually applied in real life… But it’s missing out on a ton of other factors, which of course if I may make a light comparison the police detectives (the saints) are aware of… but some armchair experts aren’t.

Historically you find these things happening, and the Popes, saints and religious authorities and Church accept they happen.

The scriptures command everyone to ‘pray unceasingly’ it’s not an optional thing where some laypeople can just ignore it. Everyone in Heaven prays unceasingly. The purpose of life on earth is to become the kind of person who is suitable to live in Heaven – not take it easy down on earth living for this world.

The human race isn’t going to come to an end because of people taking vows of virginity anytime soon, because no such large amount of people are going to do what is most recommended.

The saints’ come back with visions of who goes to Heaven and Hell on numerous occasions. Neither is uncommon.

Spencer2, all who are die in original sin are deprived of the beatific vision upon death. So babies being deprived of it are nothing new – however this is not such a simple case, these are children who have committed grave and mortal sins, and so being punished with particular punishments for those sins.

Children can and do, do this. Especially when raised by bad or ignorant parents. A single mortal sin deforms the soul incredibly, making it look incredibly foul and disgusting… If we could see with the eyes of the soul, rather than physical eyes…

The people we meet everyday in this world would look very different than they now do, young and old. I am reminded of St. Christina the Astonishing, who could distinguish these matters… she fled very far…

 

[pepipop]

so a baby born to ‘bad’ parents hasn’t a hope then, their souls are doomed before they were born? I thought Jesus said the sins of the father do not come down onto the children, how can a child survive on it’s own - it has no choice in it’s parents? Also the pope gregory quote( i have not researched this online) could this possibly have been quoted around the time when limbo was a place sanctioned by the catholic church, that is now no longer mentioned - again this is from memory only.

 

[Shin]

so a baby born to ‘bad’ parents hasn’t a hope then, their souls are doomed before they were born? I thought Jesus said the sins of the father do not come down onto the children, how can a child survive on it’s own - it has no choice in it’s parents? Also the pope gregory quote( i have not researched this online) could this possibly have been quoted around the time when limbo was a place sanctioned by the catholic church, that is now no longer mentioned - again this is from memory only.

No, it’s not a matter of hasn’t a hope – but these detrimental circumstances do have a genuine bad effect. I’m reminded of the parable, some seeds ‘fell on rocky ground’.

Limbo’s still a position within the Church – it’s not no longer mentioned, there are simply some trying to find other solutions.