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pepipop
Guest
Limbo doesnt seem to be a position with the church any longer religionnewsblog.com/18025/limbo
Also the seed falling on rocky ground I thought the word ‘seed’ referred to the word of god.
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Also the seed falling on rocky ground I thought the word ‘seed’ referred to the word of god.
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Shin
Guest
You shouldn’t believe everything you read in the news, a lot of false and misleading information comes out about Catholicism. In fact this is the case more often than not, it is the general rule. Especially when it can undercut Catholic beliefs.
The ITC is a commission of speculative theologians, who do not issue authoritative statements. In other words… they speculate. They do not teach. They say all sorts of things that are often mistaken and exploratory.
Here’s a talk about limbo given in the light of the ITC document. There’re some threads on Limbo elsewhere on the forum so let’s not go too off into it here if possible.
[edit correction] Ah, yes the talk on Limbo part is 6 minutes in if have the time to listen to it.
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pepipop
Guest
I have checked some of the threads on limbo and see your point, by the looks of it they may have it easier than the rest of us as they go to a very happy place and obtain glorified bodies at the resurrection. I still find it hard to take in though that a 5 yr old, born to non-religious parents, goes to hell. Jesus stated that the kingdom of heaen belongs to such as these meaning young children. I cant remember being 5 but i’m sure i wasnt too smart, nor would i have had a clue about or the knowledge to know I was committing a mortal sin.
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Robert_Burns
Guest
In Catholicism you do not reach the age of reason until around age 7 which is about the time we recieve our First Communion and the Sacrament of Penance to strengthen us spiritually.
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Shin
Guest
Yes… this is the age worked from, some children are quicker than others however, it’s a line drawn for practical purposes. Children can be admitted earlier if their parents think it advisable, exceptions are made by requests.
I love reading about saints and special children who go to Confession and Holy Communion early, by special exception.
It reminds me of Ven. Anne de Guigne, one chapter of her biography calls her ‘the Apostle of the Nursery’ where she would help her brothers and sisters in holiness. In fact I think that biography is a great example of the spiritual life of children and gives some idea of how to raise holy children. So important to know…
She was very small for her age. She was not holy from the start either… Very strong willed… did some bad things… described as jealous… bossy… then had a conversion…
At age 5, for her first Communion preparations, a Jesuit especially examined her. He did not keep to the order of the catechism but asked her questions out of order to make sure she knew the material.
I’ll quote the book of her biography (on sale cheap from Tan Books I still believe.)
“What is your chief fault then?” he asked.
“Pride,” answered Anne promptly, “and disobedience too.”
“Humility here,” thought the priest, but he pretended to be very stern and told her that a little girl who wanted to recieve Our Lord must obey at once and do whatever she was told. Then with a quick turn he asked: “When does Jesus obey?”
“At Mass,” answered the child without any hesitation.
“What words does He obey?”
“He obeys the priest when he says: ‘This is My Body, this is My Blood.’”
Then the examiner tried another subject: “What Sacraments have you received?”
“Baptism and Penance,” she replied.
“And which are you hoping to receive?”
“The Holy Eucharist and Confirmation.”
“No more?”
“Perhaps someday I shall receive the Sacrament of Matrimony,” she suggested.
“Holy orders too, eh?”
“Oh no, Father, how could I? That’s *your *Sacrament!” The little maid was not to be caught tripping.
Outside, Mother St. Ramyond was getting more and more anxious but at length they both appeared smiling to her great relief. “I wish you and I were as well prepared to receive Our Lord as this little girl is,” was the examiner’s verdict.
All obstacles being now removed, Anne joined the first communicants’ retreat at the convent. It was given by one of the Jesuits who took for his text: “Obedience is the sanctity of children.” All those little one’s listened with good will no doubt, but as in Our Lord’s time, “the seeds fell, some on thorny ground, some by the wayside and some on the good ground.”
For Anne the Father’s words were a revelation. Being a saint, then, for a little girl, meant being obedient. Being obedient meant pleasing Jesus; and as she wanted to please Jesus, she must therefore be obedient. The logical little mind had put the matter with a clarity worthy of St. Thomas. All that remained was to carry it out; and with Anne to know was to act, so it was done."’
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pepipop
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I was keeping with the age quoted in the post above 5 yrs of age, excerpt see below:
"For the entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven will be closed to many babies because of their parents’ bad rearing. In this city, there lives a certain man who is known to all; three years ago, this man had a son who, if I recall, would then have been about five years old, for whom he had such human love that he did not even try to discipline him.
For this reason, the boy, when someone prevented him from getting his way, used to blaspheme the magnificence of God—and let me emphasize that this is something dangerous.
When, three years ago, a deadly plague fell upon the region where he lived, this young boy succumbed to it and was near death. As eyewitnesses recounted, while the father took the child into his arms, the boy himself saw evil spirits coming for him. The boy began to tremble, to blink his eyes in fear, and to cry out in despair to his father: “Father, save me, protect me.” Simultaneously, as he cried, he turned his face towards his father’s chest, as though wanting to be hidden."
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pepipop
Guest
I agree - how can a 5 yr old that has been spoiled since birth, with no religious upbringing (not that that would matter at 5), know that he had committed a mortal sin and also do so willingly with premeditated knowledge? Especially so, since he had been spoiled by his father all his young life and would only know what he had been taught. A child can not think for themselves at birth and by law has to be looked after until they are 16 years old, either by parents or through the goverrnment in care. So for a 5 yr old to go to hell after having no guidance in his young upbringing and needing to be aware and have full knowledge that he was committing a mortal sin really does beggar belief.
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Lamafacaja
Guest
I don’t know why really, but now that you mention it, I’ve heard of a satanic ritual where the parents offer their children to the devil and then sacrifice them, thus sealing their fate.
Now before someone jumps in and argues that, "A just God would never allow little children to be brought to hell against their own free wills, remember that it’s often parents who shape the wills of their children. I think the sacrifice happens at around 7 years of age.
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Ceil-1
Guest
If the child does not will it, he or she will not be culpable.
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KostyaJMJ
Guest
Yes, it does seem to take ruling by fear a little too far. I imagine that kind of talk can really backfire. If that is how difficult it is to get to heaven then there really is no point in even bothering with getting in.
And I can’t imagine actually desiring to go to heaven either. All you would have to do is contemplate all of unbaptized infants suffering torment or all of the millions of people who have died without knowledge of Jesus who are now tortured in hell. It makes God into a villain.
And I can’t imagine actually desiring to go to heaven either. All you would have to do is contemplate all of unbaptized infants suffering torment or all of the millions of people who have died without knowledge of Jesus who are now tortured in hell. It makes God into a villain.
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Shin
Guest
Truly to say something like that truly seems to be judging God. The numbers or amounts of people who are not in Heaven make no difference to God’s goodness.
One third of the angels are in Hell, scripture testifies to this fact explicitly. We are not angels.
A good deal of the Divine Mercy devotion is about trust in God. Some people’s trust in God changes depending on these things. That is morally and logically a problem. We have from Revelation Who God is, and His absolute goodness.
We are the ones who should be conforming to Him, not vice versa.
We should be happy with all that God decrees, whatever our personal predispositions. We should embrace as His will all of the Old and New Testament decrees of His will. And surrender to Divine Providence completely.
Who are we to judge God?
One third of the angels are in Hell, scripture testifies to this fact explicitly. We are not angels.
A good deal of the Divine Mercy devotion is about trust in God. Some people’s trust in God changes depending on these things. That is morally and logically a problem. We have from Revelation Who God is, and His absolute goodness.
We are the ones who should be conforming to Him, not vice versa.
We should be happy with all that God decrees, whatever our personal predispositions. We should embrace as His will all of the Old and New Testament decrees of His will. And surrender to Divine Providence completely.
Who are we to judge God?
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Some thoughts prompted by the idea of God as “villain.”
It is God’s nature to be God, like it’s a shark’s nature to be a shark or a tree’s nature to be a tree. It’s His nature to be merciful, compassionate, pitying, all of the things that are revealed in the Holy One in His Incarnation, Passion, Death, and Resurection. It is also His nature to be just. We can be eternally grateful that His Mercy moves in perfect consort with His Justice and provides a way (the WAY) for His Justice, His Honor, His Majesty to be satisfied, but the One does not negate the Others. He won’t overide our freedom to choose Him or to turn away from Him and He won’t force our consciences. He also cannot stop being God. Sin is offensive to His Nature, like being out of the water would be offensive to a shark or being at the bottom of the ocean would be offensive to a tree. The shark and the tree simply die. God can’t die, so I rather imagine what offends Him must die, not only as a juridicial sentence passed by a judge, but as a consequnce of not being able to exist in His Presence. We do not know the origins of hell. Holy Writ describes it as a place “prepared for the devil and his angels,” (Matthew 25:41). We don’t know if God created it deliberately or if it sprang into being as a result of the first disobedience by the fallen angels. There’s no bad questions and I’ve often found myself wondering if there was not simply one great Fire, the Fire of His Love and Holiness. Maybe the saints have been made fit to stand in It and rejoice in It and burn themselves with His Love; the souls in purgatory, having died in His Friendship, are being MADE fit to stand in It; and the souls of those who rejected Him are tormented by It. Interesting speculation, but I don’t know. I think it’s safe to say that neither His Mercy nor His Justice is imperfect and the souls in Hell are there because they’ve refused to surrender themselves to the first and so must suffer the second. Every grace that each of us needs for salvation is given in the proper measure. I very much doubt that the souls damned to hell stood before Him and were able to accuse Him of unfairness or injustice. And my first reaction to “a loving God couldn’t permit this” is always “What more could He do than to die for us?” That’s HOW God, for the structure of argument and “proofs” remains God. To the question “how could a loving God permit this,” His answer is “I couldn’t, so I died for you, I died to satisfy My Own Justice,” because His Justice MUST be satisfied given His Eternal Nature. Just my thoughts.
It is God’s nature to be God, like it’s a shark’s nature to be a shark or a tree’s nature to be a tree. It’s His nature to be merciful, compassionate, pitying, all of the things that are revealed in the Holy One in His Incarnation, Passion, Death, and Resurection. It is also His nature to be just. We can be eternally grateful that His Mercy moves in perfect consort with His Justice and provides a way (the WAY) for His Justice, His Honor, His Majesty to be satisfied, but the One does not negate the Others. He won’t overide our freedom to choose Him or to turn away from Him and He won’t force our consciences. He also cannot stop being God. Sin is offensive to His Nature, like being out of the water would be offensive to a shark or being at the bottom of the ocean would be offensive to a tree. The shark and the tree simply die. God can’t die, so I rather imagine what offends Him must die, not only as a juridicial sentence passed by a judge, but as a consequnce of not being able to exist in His Presence. We do not know the origins of hell. Holy Writ describes it as a place “prepared for the devil and his angels,” (Matthew 25:41). We don’t know if God created it deliberately or if it sprang into being as a result of the first disobedience by the fallen angels. There’s no bad questions and I’ve often found myself wondering if there was not simply one great Fire, the Fire of His Love and Holiness. Maybe the saints have been made fit to stand in It and rejoice in It and burn themselves with His Love; the souls in purgatory, having died in His Friendship, are being MADE fit to stand in It; and the souls of those who rejected Him are tormented by It. Interesting speculation, but I don’t know. I think it’s safe to say that neither His Mercy nor His Justice is imperfect and the souls in Hell are there because they’ve refused to surrender themselves to the first and so must suffer the second. Every grace that each of us needs for salvation is given in the proper measure. I very much doubt that the souls damned to hell stood before Him and were able to accuse Him of unfairness or injustice. And my first reaction to “a loving God couldn’t permit this” is always “What more could He do than to die for us?” That’s HOW God, for the structure of argument and “proofs” remains God. To the question “how could a loving God permit this,” His answer is “I couldn’t, so I died for you, I died to satisfy My Own Justice,” because His Justice MUST be satisfied given His Eternal Nature. Just my thoughts.
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Ceil-1
Guest
On the contrary. That is not judging God at all.
God is infinitely more merciful and good than we could ever fathom, and, if such a notion is evil to us who are evil ourselves, there must be a component of the situation that we are not knowledeable about.
Certain types obsess about the punishment aspect. Some sort of personality flaw that enjoys masochistic themes. There are people like that, you know. If they are Protestant, they become fundamentalists and post on You Tube If they are Catholic they become… well, I don’t want to get in trouble for being uncharitable. But, they tend to gravitate towrds a certain sect, if you will. Always negative and disparaging.
God is infinitely more merciful and good than we could ever fathom, and, if such a notion is evil to us who are evil ourselves, there must be a component of the situation that we are not knowledeable about.
Certain types obsess about the punishment aspect. Some sort of personality flaw that enjoys masochistic themes. There are people like that, you know. If they are Protestant, they become fundamentalists and post on You Tube If they are Catholic they become… well, I don’t want to get in trouble for being uncharitable. But, they tend to gravitate towrds a certain sect, if you will. Always negative and disparaging.
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pepipop
Guest
I feel that the underlying problem with this post is ‘judgment’ but not of god, but of other souls on earth. This thread in addition to another one I have just read ‘ordinary v extraordinary means of salvation’ which discusses god’s treatment of souls at death through discussions and and interpretations of catholic teachings on baptism - more or less tries to make the point that only baptised catholics/christians will get to heaven, which I personally cannot believe is true. (It is a very long and convuluted thread). One point in the thread being that St Therese was shown her place in hell, even though she said she thought - even though she had sinned - she was still doing god’s will - some hope for the rest of us then.
All in all I have only visited this forum recently to help to enlighten and strenghten my faith however such threads would lead someone to despair - and despair is one of satan’s greatest weapons. All that is asked of us is to love god and our neighbour as ourself and keep god’s commandments but these threads would make that seem not to be enough!
All in all I have only visited this forum recently to help to enlighten and strenghten my faith however such threads would lead someone to despair - and despair is one of satan’s greatest weapons. All that is asked of us is to love god and our neighbour as ourself and keep god’s commandments but these threads would make that seem not to be enough!
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KostyaJMJ
Guest
Well nothing seems more wrong than making creatures capable of feeling pain only to turn around and condemn upwards of 99.99% of them to eternal and unspeakable torture, most of them for doing nothing more than dying in their mother’s womb (remember 60% of zygotes fail to implant) or being born at the wrong time. It would seem that we can’t trust our sense of right and wrong to make any judgments not only about God but about anything at all.
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Shin
Guest
May I suggest reading the Book of Job.
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pepipop
Guest
A book describing how satan asked God if he could to tempt Job so as to cause him to despise god.May I suggest reading the Book of Job.
Once again, the negativity and despair from Job coming directly through the actions of satan, his greatest weapon.
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Shin
Guest
'Nothing happens in the the universe without God willing and allowing it. This statement must he taken absolutely of everything with the exception of sin. ‘Nothing occurs by chance in the whole course of our lives’ is the unanimous teaching of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, 'and God intervenes everywhere. . .
This truth has always been familiar to the minds of those truly enlightened by God. We have a celebrated example in Job. He loses his children and his possessions; he falls from the height of fortune to the depths of poverty. And he says The Lord gave and the Lord hath taken away. As it hath pleased the Lord, so is it done. Blessed be the name of the Lord.10 “Note” observes St. Augustine “Job does not say ‘The Lord gave and the devil hath taken away’ but says, wise that he is, ‘The Lord gave me my children and my possessions, and it is He who has taken them away; it has been done as it has pleased the Lord.’”
Highly good read. Life changing stuff.
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pepipop
Guest
Highly good read. Life changing stuff.
I’ve briefly read through this, and reminded me of the reason for my unrest this week with my faith. It was following the death of Michaela Mcareavey breakingnews.ie/ireland/eyididqlsnoj/
a young catholic wife married two weeks and strangled on her honeymoon. Her husband and both families were staunch catholics, she was a pioneer and prayed constantly. The fact she was strangled on her honeymoon and her husband’s now grief stricken (they met 5 yrs prior to being married) was, as per the article you highlight above - god’s will. Both families were model citizens in the towns they lived in, so I do find this very hard to accept considering they were obeying god’s laws, showed great example to their faith, she initiated a pioneer club for her young students being a young pioneer herself, yet this tradgedy occurred and 2 weeks after her wedding she was buried, in her wedding dress in the same church. I recognise we have to accept god’s will but this was hard to take.
I’ve briefly read through this, and reminded me of the reason for my unrest this week with my faith. It was following the death of Michaela Mcareavey breakingnews.ie/ireland/eyididqlsnoj/
a young catholic wife married two weeks and strangled on her honeymoon. Her husband and both families were staunch catholics, she was a pioneer and prayed constantly. The fact she was strangled on her honeymoon and her husband’s now grief stricken (they met 5 yrs prior to being married) was, as per the article you highlight above - god’s will. Both families were model citizens in the towns they lived in, so I do find this very hard to accept considering they were obeying god’s laws, showed great example to their faith, she initiated a pioneer club for her young students being a young pioneer herself, yet this tradgedy occurred and 2 weeks after her wedding she was buried, in her wedding dress in the same church. I recognise we have to accept god’s will but this was hard to take.
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Shin
Guest
‘Trust in the LORD with all your heart, on your own understanding rely not; In all your ways be acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.’
Proverbs 3:5
All these things that happen in the world, are nothing compared to God’s grace. When we see God clearly, what seem like great pains apart from Him all become soothed.
We should rely and trust in God no matter what happens, no matter how hard. Everything is truly hard because we are not united with God – with Him we can bear all things.
That is part of the message of trustful surrender to Divine Providence. It’s because we fight against Providence that it becomes difficult. If interiorly we accept even the hardest things these things become far less hard than before. In fact, ultimately we are caught up in our own emotions and selves and see and feel things in ways that are detrimental because we are separate rather than with and in God.
After we die, if we go to Purgatory, we will gladly rush with our whole wills to embrace pains that are beyond anything in this world. This is how clearly we will see, and love God then. -Then- we see clearly. It’s best to try to see as clearly as possible now rather than delay.
Proverbs 3:5
All these things that happen in the world, are nothing compared to God’s grace. When we see God clearly, what seem like great pains apart from Him all become soothed.
We should rely and trust in God no matter what happens, no matter how hard. Everything is truly hard because we are not united with God – with Him we can bear all things.
That is part of the message of trustful surrender to Divine Providence. It’s because we fight against Providence that it becomes difficult. If interiorly we accept even the hardest things these things become far less hard than before. In fact, ultimately we are caught up in our own emotions and selves and see and feel things in ways that are detrimental because we are separate rather than with and in God.
After we die, if we go to Purgatory, we will gladly rush with our whole wills to embrace pains that are beyond anything in this world. This is how clearly we will see, and love God then. -Then- we see clearly. It’s best to try to see as clearly as possible now rather than delay.
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