The Fewness of Those Catholics Saved

[pepipop]

‘Trust in the LORD with all your heart, on your own understanding rely not; In all your ways be acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.’

Proverbs 3:5

All these things that happen in the world, are nothing compared to God’s grace. When we see God clearly, what seem like great pains apart from Him all become soothed.

We should rely and trust in God no matter what happens, no matter how hard. Everything is truly hard because we are not united with God – with Him we can bear all things.

That is part of the message of trustful surrender to Divine Providence. It’s because we fight against Providence that it becomes difficult. If interiorly we accept even the hardest things these things become far less hard than before. In fact, ultimately we are caught up in our own emotions and selves and see and feel things in ways that are detrimental because we are separate rather than with and in God.

After we die, if we go to Purgatory, we will gladly rush with our whole wills to embrace pains that are beyond anything in this world. This is how clearly we will see, and love God then. -Then- we see clearly. It’s best to try to see as clearly as possible now rather than delay.

 

[Gregory_I]

Isaiah 55:8 - For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

Romans 9 :11-20.

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault?** For who hath resisted his will? **

20Nay but, O man,** who art thou that repliest against God?** Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, **Why hast thou made me thus? **

Good stuff to meditate on. God’s predestination and unconditional election.

 

[pepipop]

And if your spouse and kids were murdered whilst you are away from your home that will be very comforting. Even Job was given more children and became more prosperous after his trials with the devil, willed by God.

Also pre-destination would then infer it would not matter what an elected person does with their free will. Can they do what they want i.e. sin and still be elected?

 

[At_Trent]

Hell is real, and we all may go there. Just because we don’t want to hear it doesn’t make it not so. And just because we think we are safe, does not mean we are. We never are.

But you will say: I have changed my life, and now I have no bad motive, nor even a temptation, in the society of such a person. I answer: it is related that in Mauritania there are bears that go in search of the apes. As soon as they see a bear, the apes save themselves by climbing up the trees: but what does the bear do? He stretches himself, as if dead, under the tree; and when the apes descend, he springs up, seizes, and devours them. It is thus the devil acts: he makes the temptations appear dead; and when the soul exposes itself to the occasions of sin, he excites the temptation, which devours it. Oh! how many miserable souls, that practised mental prayer, frequented Communion, and might be called saints, have, by putting themselves into dangerous occasions, become the prey of hell?
St Alphonsus Liguori
alphonsianum.blogspot.com/search/label/Preparation%20for%20Death

So how do we avoid Hell ? We draw on what the Church offers to save us and never let Hell slip our minds.

O Mary! behold at thy feet a miserable slave of hell, who implores thy mercy. I, indeed, deserve no good; but thou art the mother of mercy, and mercy is exercised in favor of those who are unworthy of it. The whole world calls thee the refuge and the hope of sinners; then thou art my refuge and my hope. I am a lost sheep; but to save the lost sheep, the Eternal Word came down from heaven, and became thy Son; he wishes that I have recourse to thee, and that thou assist me by thy prayers. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us, sinners. O great Mother of God! thou prayest for all; pray to thy Son also for me: tell him that I am thy Client, and that thou art my protectress: tell him that in thee, after him, I have placed all my hopes; tell him to pardon me, that I repent of all the insults I have offered to him; tell him to grant me in his mercy holy perseverance: tell him to grant me the grace to love him with my whole heart. In fine, tell him to save me. He does whatsoever thou askest. O Mary, my hope! in thee I trust; have pity on me.
alphonsianum.blogspot.com/search/label/Preparation%20for%20Death

 

[Shin]

And if your spouse and kids were murdered whilst you are away from your home that will be very comforting. Even Job was given more children and became more prosperous after his trials with the devil, willed by God.

Also pre-destination would then infer it would not matter what an elected person does with their free will. Can they do what they want i.e. sin and still be elected?

Pre-destination is an interesting subject… there are some subtle ways it has to be considered to see how it works in conjunction with free will.

Everyone suffers, and everyone dies eventually, everyone loses one’s family one way or another eventually. I know that there’s a built in temptation to reject things once they get to a certain point or level. I feel it. But if you consider certain counsels for the spiritual life and what is necessary to advance in the spiritual life… you focus on God, and accept the rest one way or another.

I’ve read it more than once – if you resist the acceptance you make more pain for yourself… if you accept it, in whatever way, as punishment, as a mystery, one way or another… as in conjunction with God’s will… it’s not as painful.

And all these emotions we have, have a reason for existence. They exist too, to serve God and to benefit our journey to God. When our emotional life tends towards separation from God – we should see this as an issue, a problem, not as a justification for our point of view. In many ways God shares our pains… but all of our crosses tend towards ultimate good. All of them.

Hope this helps, if you try to think it through, work with it… it should. However poorly it is put.

 

[Student09]

No, I didn’t. This is how we show our love for God. We put God first.

All the philanthropic efforts in the world won’t get you into Heaven. They may be very good, but they won’t get you into Heaven.

Of course I meant love of God and love of neighbor for the sake of God, not philanthropy. You listed a series of external actions. One can perform those actions from rote habit, without the virtue of caritas. That’s what I meant.

We should not depend on ourselves and on our own actions. That is what leads to despair. If instead we depend on God, then we find peace in Him.

 

[Lamafacaja]

Of course I meant love of God and love of neighbor for the sake of God, not philanthropy. You listed a series of external actions. One can perform those actions from rote habit, without the virtue of caritas. That’s what I meant.

We should not depend on ourselves and on our own actions. That is what leads to despair. If instead we depend on God, then we find peace in Him.

Well, you have to be careful not to despair, but also not to presume.

 

[Gregory_I]

God has predestined and chosen those who will be saved, the elect. But he has not pre-destined them against their will, that’s determinism.

Thomas Aquinas Teaches that God actually predestines the free use we will make of our will. Swallow THAT one, lol.

Think of it this way: When God was going to create you, he knew all your potential actions, and all your real actions. He knew EVERYTHING you would do, even before he created you. And yet, in light of all you would do, good or bad, he chose to create you. Thus, he has pre-destined the FREE use of your will! Every Choice we make, will be our own free choice: But God already knew those choices, and his choice to bring US into existence is to bring our choices he knew we would make into existence, but it is not fatalistic, you see?

Now, he has also unconditionally elected some men to grace and glory, and also elected some to grace for a time. He has predestined some to Living a life of grace and meriting heaven, and living a life of grace, and falling away. The rest, he has chosen not to give grace to. He does not Positively reprobate anyone and send them to hell, he simply does not give everyone the same kind of grace. But these people do not experience any injustice, because they don’t WANT his grace. Those who ask, receive. Those who do not ask, never receive.

This is the Teaching of Aquinas, which we can believe as Catholics. Calvin exaggereated some of its aspects if it sounds calvinistic.

 

[pepipop]

Theologians enumerate eight signs of predestination.

1. First, a good life;
2. secondly, the testimony of a good conscience;
3. thirdly, patience in adversities for love of God;
4. fourthly, relish for the light and the Word of God;
5. fifthly, mercy toward those who suffer;
6. sixthly, love of enemies;
7. seventhly, humility;
8. eighthly, special devotion to the Blessed Virgin

(from R.M. Garrigou-Lagrange, in Life Everlasting, “The Number of the Elect”).

#605 The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: “There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer.” 412

412 Council of Quiercy (853): DS 624; cf. 2 Cor 5:15; I Jn 2:2

#1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; 618

618 Cf. Council of Orange II (529): DS 397; Council of Trent (1547): DS 1567.

I think from the above quotes that pre-destination still requires ‘work’ and good use of our free will.

 

[perro_sarnoso]

Get to Confession, go to Mass on Sundays, pray your Rosary, wear a scapular, stay out of serious trouble. What is so hard about that? You can do this.

God doesn’t ask for the sun, the moon, and the stars. He is so generous.

That looks like my list !

Way to go Lama…

 

[pepipop]

Shin the article you referred to, see below, included the following excerpt:

This led to me thinking what if a young baby/child is being physically abused, beaten, is this God operating through the abuser to ‘humble’ that child? Obviously the person dealing out the abuse is sinning but what lesson would God wish the baby/child to learn as it would not be of the age to reason and hence could not sin? I recognise that God controls everything as he created all, the devils included, however I cannot see why God would want to operate through a person that is abusing a defenseless child (as outlined below)…

I think that the fact that the devil rules this world and evil acts are rampant is the most likely explanation for evil acts, as opposed to it being allowed by God.
olrl.org/snt_docs/trustful/

“In the same way God has no share at all in the wickedness of the man who strikes or robs you. That is something particular to the man himself. God, as we have said, wishes to make you see your own faults, to humble you, deprive you of what you possess, in order to free you from vice and lead you to virtue; but this good and merciful design, which He could carry out in numerous other ways without any sin being involved, has nothing in common with the sin of the man who acts as His instrument. And in fact it is not this man’s evil intention or sin that causes you to suffer, humiliates or impoverishes you, but the loss of your well being, your good name or you possessions. The sin harms only the person who is guilty of it. This is the way we ought to separate the good from the evil in events of this kind, and distinguish what God operates through men from what men add to the act by their own will.”

 

[Shin]

Theologians enumerate eight signs of predestination.

1. First, a good life;
2. secondly, the testimony of a good conscience;
3. thirdly, patience in adversities for love of God;
4. fourthly, relish for the light and the Word of God;
5. fifthly, mercy toward those who suffer;
6. sixthly, love of enemies;
7. seventhly, humility;
8. eighthly, special devotion to the Blessed Virgin

(from R.M. Garrigou-Lagrange, in Life Everlasting, “The Number of the Elect”).

I think from the above quotes that pre-destination still requires ‘work’ and good use of our free will.

Good list!! Regarding #8, the Rosary fits in there and is said to be a special sign of it. The Scapular too.

Mercy is shown to the merciful. Forgiveness to the forgiving. Since we are enemies of God so often, we must show the love He shows us to others. We must love the knowledge of Our Lord and that love causes us to seek it further. Patience – Well, frustration is of the devil. It is what provokes foul language… But the saints are meek and mild… A good conscience… requires significant work, fulfilling the duties of one’s state in life and self sacrifice…

And we recognize such people who do all these things as good people.

That Quiercy quote was interesting as I have heard the opposite statement. But given the subtleties of it you can say either, depending on exactly what you mean by it I tend to think. Let me see… Ah I found it!

This is the statement from the Council of Quiersy, how it parses the problem:

I. Omnipotent God created man noble without sin with a free will, and he whom He wished to remain in the sanctity of justice, He placed in Paradise. **Man using his free will badly sinned and fell, and became the “mass of perdition” of the entire human race. **The just and good God, however, chose from this same mass of perdition according to His foreknowledge those whom through grace He predestined to life Rom. 8:29 ff.; Eph. 1:11], and He predestined for these eternal life; the others, whom by the judgment of justice he left in the mass of perdition, however, He knew would perish, but He did not predestine that they would perish, because He is just; however, He predestined eternal punishment for them. And on account of this we speak of only one predestination of God, which pertains either to the gift of grace or to the retribution of justice.

II. The freedom of will which we lost in the first man, we have received back through Christ our Lord; and we have** free will for good**, preceded and aided by grace, and we have free will for evil, abandoned by grace. Moreover, because freed by grace and by grace healed from corruption, we have free will.

III. Omnipotent God wishes all men without exception to be saved[1 Tim. 2:4 ] although not all will be saved. However, that certain ones are saved, is the gift of the one who saves; that certain ones perish, however, is the deserved punishment of those who perish.

IV. Christ Jesus our Lord, as no man who is or has been or ever will be whose nature will not have been assumed in Him, so there is, has been, or will be no man, for whom He has not suffered - although not all will be saved by the mystery of His passion. But because all are not redeemed by the mystery of His passion, He does not regard the greatness and the fullness of the price, but He regards the part of the unfaithful ones and those not believing in faith those things which He has worked through love [Gal. 5:6], because the drink of human safety, which has been prepared by our infirmity and by divine strength, has indeed in itself that it may be beneficial to all; but if it is not drunk, it does not heal.

 

[Shin]

Shin the article you referred to, see below, included the following excerpt:

This led to me thinking what if a young baby/child is being physically abused, beaten, is this God operating through the abuser to ‘humble’ that child? Obviously the person dealing out the abuse is sinning but what lesson would God wish the baby/child to learn as it would not be of the age to reason and hence could not sin? I recognise that God controls everything as he created all, the devils included, however I cannot see why God would want to operate through a person that is abusing a defenseless child (as outlined below)…

I think that the fact that the devil rules this world and evil acts are rampant is the most likely explanation for evil acts, as opposed to it being allowed by God.
olrl.org/snt_docs/trustful/

“In the same way God has no share at all in the wickedness of the man who strikes or robs you. That is something particular to the man himself. God, as we have said, wishes to make you see your own faults, to humble you, deprive you of what you possess, in order to free you from vice and lead you to virtue; but this good and merciful design, which He could carry out in numerous other ways without any sin being involved, has nothing in common with the sin of the man who acts as His instrument. And in fact it is not this man’s evil intention or sin that causes you to suffer, humiliates or impoverishes you, but the loss of your well being, your good name or you possessions. The sin harms only the person who is guilty of it. This is the way we ought to separate the good from the evil in events of this kind, and distinguish what God operates through men from what men add to the act by their own will.”

Pepipop, Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence is a book that has taken me years to adjust to emotionally. I still have further to go, I come back, I think on it, I let it be then I come back… think on it more… let it be.

Perhaps some are so good they can embrace and process it emotionally and/as well as intellectually entirely in one go. I wish to be so!

In regards to infants and innocents who suffer… It is a complex question, but don’t fall towards defaulting towards negatives.

First of all, all infants suffer. All animal life suffers. Natural evils such as sufferings are not moral evils.

One perspective, a part of the puzzle appears to be this… That all this suffering can be changed for the good. Christ we see, suffered more greatly than any of us ever can or will. All of that suffering was more than sufficient…

It’s to God’s glory in Heaven that He bore it for love’s sake. So too, we bear the glory of God in us when we suffer for the sake of God.

In Heaven, no one can suffer anymore. It’s all over, for all eternity, there is no more suffering. I have heard it said that the saints if they could would envy us suffering as it increases their beatific vision and reward in Heaven, because to bear it for God’s sake, shows an increase in the capacity to love, an increase in merit, etc.

So, infants, in the next life… Who have born some suffering, for God’s sake, have something that gives them a share in eternal glory. In other words, in the afterlife, what is a negative in this life, is a positive there.

The sin, of course, is always evil, but the suffering – we can suffer for good or evil causes. If all suffering was of an evil cause, and only an evil result - that would be a true tragedy. But that God can turn suffering for good, transforms this equation.

Physical things that cause us suffering can happen to us of all kinds and have no moral component, in the natural consequences thereof. Car accidents, emergency surgery, etc. If a sinner is involved in something which outwardly produces painful natural results… we can overcome the harm done and have it turned to good.

 

[pepipop]

Thanks Shin, however it is going to take me a while to take in all the information from both your posts!

 

[numealinesimpet]

The number of damned apparently exceeds the number attaining salvation. But this is not because the Way of Salvation is so difficult (My yoke is easy, and My burden light), it is that so many people simply don’t try.

Not long ago in Ireland, a talk at a Community Hall on the Holy Shroud was advertised. Fewer than two dozen people turned up. A few weeks later, there was in the same hall a “Dutch Auction” promising wonderful bargains. As was later discovered, it was a criminal fraud – the people were sold empty boxes. The “organisers” were on the Ferry out of the country before this was fully appreciated. But the queues to get in had stretched away down the street in both directions.

 

[Joseph_Kemp]

One of the cruelest Traditionalist heresies is that almost nobody get to Heaven. This is NOT a Catholic belief - the belief that no matter how good or kind you are, you are probably going to Hell.

This heresy was rejected outright by the Vatican, and their rejection can be read on the Vatican Website under “Radical Traditionalism.” I cannot count how many times I have seen this particular heresy appear on Catholic Answers posts. I actually read one ordinary Roman Catholic man complaining that “If it’s so hard to get to Heaven, why even bother trying?” No reassurance was forthcoming.

TRADITIONALIST Catholic Churches are very different from regular Catholic Churches. Traditionalist Churches are not part of the Roman Catholic Church (usually.) They have their own Church, their own bishops, and the strictest rules and regulations I have ever seen. They are absolutely OBSESSED with the thought of Hell. They do not follow the Pope or the Vatican, and their views on Hell are considered heretical by the Catholic Magisterium. The Vatican has published several papal documents detailing conservative Traditionalist heresies on the subject.

I mention this only because so many Traditionalists post on Catholic Answers, especially when Hell is being discussed, or whenever Catholics talk about “how few are saved.” It is their favorite subject. Most Roman Catholics never think of Hell all that much, but Traditionalists do. Talking with Traditionalists can be very confusing for regular Catholics. Especially when the subject comes up of “how few are saved.”

Fear of Hell is everywhere in Traditionalist Catholic teachings. Absolutely everywhere. Hell dominates their every waking thought. It is their reason for living. It is taught in their Churches regularly. It is the only reason they give for being moral. If you ask a Traditionalist “Why do you do what’s right?” he/she will invariably answer “To avoid going to Hell.”

To a Traditionalist, virtually everything can send you to Hell. Pretty much everything is a mortal sin. Washing your car on Sunday? That’s a mortal sin, and will send you straight to Hell. Going to a movie on a Sunday? That’s encouraging people to work on a Sunday, and will send you straight to Hell.

Holding hands with your girlfriend or boyfriend? That’s a mortal sin against Modesty, and will send you straight to Hell. Co-ed swimming (where girls and boys swim together in the same pool?) Mortal sin. Straight to Hell.

It’s hard to identify much of ANYTHING that doesn’t qualify as mortal sin with Traditionalists.

Under these bizarre conditions (among many, many others), it’s no WONDER Traditionalists believe that almost nobody is saved. Who could possibly measure up? Who indeed.

The regular Catholic Church that follows the teachings of the Magisterium and the Vatican states that most people likely go to Purgatory or to Heaven. It is a gentle teaching, and Traditionalists hate it. Not tough enough for them, apparently. Not fearful enough.

P.S.: TAN Books is a particularly nasty Traditionalist publisher that should be avoided by regular Catholics, for the sake of their sanity. One of my favorite TAN titles is “HELL, AND HOW TO AVOID HELL.” This book almost destroyed my faith life. It almost drove me out of the Catholic Church. I could not believe that our gentle religion could be so strict and harsh and demanding. I just could not believe that almost everyone goes to Hell. I keep that book around even now, if only to remind me of the poison of Traditionalist beliefs on Hell. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, so to speak.

Traditionalists often leave their books and magazines (such as The Fatima Crusader) lying around regular Catholic Churches, in the hope of corrupting ordinary Catholics into believing what Traditionalists believe. And it’s a fairly effective ploy. Fear is catching. When regular Catholics are not aware of what the Vatican actually teaches, it’s very easy to believe that one’s salvation is in jeopardy. And most people worried about their salvation automatically adopt the strictest, harshest teaching on how to save their souls. If it sounds strict, then it must be right - or so the thinking goes. And this is natural, if unintelligent. When the problem feels threatening, the only solution that feels right is often equally threatening. It’s just how we’re wired up. And once a particularly terrifying belief - such as the belief that very few Catholics are saved - is in place, it is extraordinarily hard to dislodge such a belief, even with counseling.

Regular Catholics exposed to Traditionalist beliefs on Hell often become scrupulous, developing an unhealthy conscience, an unhealthy sense of sin. They see sin everywhere, especially where it doesn’t exist, and often require spiritual help. If you’re trying to get a Traditionalist to listen to the more moderate view of the regular Catholic Church on Hell, good luck. There’s far too much fear. And it doesn’t look like it’s going to be changing any time soon.

Many are saved. Few are enlightened enough to understand why.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

If we die in a state of grace, in the friendship of the Lord, then we will go either directly to Heaven or to Purgatory. If we die outside the state of grace, outside of His Friendship, then we go to hell.

I don’t know about the visions of the saints (they aren’t a part of Deposit of Faith, of Public Revelation, which ended with the death of the last Apostle), but the New Testament is fairly clear on the existance of hell. “Narrow is the way and few are they that find it.” That’s right straight out of the Mouth of the Holy One in the Gospels.

 

[At_Trent]

One of the cruelest Traditionalist heresies is that almost nobody get to Heaven. This is NOT a Catholic belief - the belief that no matter how good or kind you are, you are probably going to Hell.

This heresy was rejected outright by the Vatican, and their rejection can be read on the Vatican Website under “Radical Traditionalism.” I cannot count how many times I have seen this particular heresy appear on Catholic Answers posts. I actually read one ordinary Roman Catholic man complaining that “If it’s so hard to get to Heaven, why even bother trying?” No reassurance was forthcoming.

TRADITIONALIST Catholic Churches are very different from regular Catholic Churches. Traditionalist Churches are not part of the Roman Catholic Church (usually.) They have their own Church, their own bishops, and the strictest rules and regulations I have ever seen. They are absolutely OBSESSED with the thought of Hell. They do not follow the Pope or the Vatican, and their views on Hell are considered heretical by the Catholic Magisterium. The Vatican has published several papal documents detailing conservative Traditionalist heresies on the subject.

I mention this only because so many Traditionalists post on Catholic Answers, especially when Hell is being discussed, or whenever Catholics talk about “how few are saved.” It is their favorite subject. Most Roman Catholics never think of Hell all that much, but Traditionalists do. Talking with Traditionalists can be very confusing for regular Catholics. Especially when the subject comes up of “how few are saved.”

Fear of Hell is everywhere in Traditionalist Catholic teachings. Absolutely everywhere. Hell dominates their every waking thought. It is their reason for living. It is taught in their Churches regularly. It is the only reason they give for being moral. If you ask a Traditionalist “Why do you do what’s right?” he/she will invariably answer “To avoid going to Hell.”

To a Traditionalist, virtually everything can send you to Hell. Pretty much everything is a mortal sin. Washing your car on Sunday? That’s a mortal sin, and will send you straight to Hell. Going to a movie on a Sunday? That’s encouraging people to work on a Sunday, and will send you straight to Hell.

Holding hands with your girlfriend or boyfriend? That’s a mortal sin against Modesty, and will send you straight to Hell. Co-ed swimming (where girls and boys swim together in the same pool?) Mortal sin. Straight to Hell.

It’s hard to identify much of ANYTHING that doesn’t qualify as mortal sin with Traditionalists.

Under these bizarre conditions (among many, many others), it’s no WONDER Traditionalists believe that almost nobody is saved. Who could possibly measure up? Who indeed.

The regular Catholic Church that follows the teachings of the Magisterium and the Vatican states that most people likely go to Purgatory or to Heaven. It is a gentle teaching, and Traditionalists hate it. Not tough enough for them, apparently. Not fearful enough.

P.S.: TAN Books is a particularly nasty Traditionalist publisher that should be avoided by regular Catholics, for the sake of their sanity. One of my favorite TAN titles is “HELL, AND HOW TO AVOID HELL.” This book almost destroyed my faith life. It almost drove me out of the Catholic Church. I could not believe that our gentle religion could be so strict and harsh and demanding. I just could not believe that almost everyone goes to Hell. I keep that book around even now, if only to remind me of the poison of Traditionalist beliefs on Hell. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, so to speak.

Traditionalists often leave their books and magazines (such as The Fatima Crusader) lying around regular Catholic Churches, in the hope of corrupting ordinary Catholics into believing what Traditionalists believe. And it’s a fairly effective ploy. Fear is catching. When regular Catholics are not aware of what the Vatican actually teaches, it’s very easy to believe that one’s salvation is in jeopardy. And most people worried about their salvation automatically adopt the strictest, harshest teaching on how to save their souls. If it sounds strict, then it must be right - or so the thinking goes. And this is natural, if unintelligent. When the problem feels threatening, the only solution that feels right is often equally threatening. It’s just how we’re wired up. And once a particularly terrifying belief - such as the belief that very few Catholics are saved - is in place, it is extraordinarily hard to dislodge such a belief, even with counseling.

Regular Catholics exposed to Traditionalist beliefs on Hell often become scrupulous, developing an unhealthy conscience, an unhealthy sense of sin. They see sin everywhere, especially where it doesn’t exist, and often require spiritual help. If you’re trying to get a Traditionalist to listen to the more moderate view of the regular Catholic Church on Hell, good luck. There’s far too much fear. And it doesn’t look like it’s going to be changing any time soon.

Many are saved. Few are enlightened enough to understand why.

How do you feel about exorcisms ?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Also pre-destination would then infer it would not matter what an elected person does with their free will. Can they do what they want i.e. sin and still be elected?

No, that’s more like a form of Calvinism. Predestination refers to the amount of graces that a person receives in this life. Everyone receives a different amount of grace. Everyone receives enough graces to be saved, Christ died for all not only for the elect (the denial of this is Calvinism/Jansenism) and wills that all men be saved (1Ti 2:4).

Look at yourself and look at the worldlings. Why do you see what they cannot see? Why do you revere God and seek to follow Him, even if you stumble sometimes, and they can’t see beyond the next party or promotion or whatever? Why are some of us born into devout Catholic families (actually devout, not the media’s use of that phrase, but going to Daily Mass, praying the Family Rosary, frequenting Confession, avoiding occasions of sin, promoting modesty and chastity, etc.) and others born into families of infidels or of lapsed Catholics?

The family of the Little Flower seems to be probably the second greatest family after the Holy Family – the love and devotion in that family is a model for us all. Why were she and the other children given such immense graces and religious vocations? They had to cooperate with the graces they were given. St. Therese could have chosen to go out partying, drinking and make out with boys instead, she had free will but she instead chose to become a saint instead of a sinner. St. Theresa of Avila was shown her place in hell would she die that day and she became ever more fervent and a great Doctor of the Church and avoided that fate. God gives different graces to everyone, but we all have to make a choice as to what we do with those graces we are given.

These are only vague thoughts on predestination but for a greater understanding you can read Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange’s book Predestination. His position on predestination is not the only orthodox opinion, but it is a solid one.