The Filoque: Why is it important?

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Lets be a little clearer. You would only say that a procession through the Son is temporal though. Correct?
There is a temporal procession (the Fathers say proinai).

The Spirit also proceeds eternally from the source of the Father and through the Son (numerous Fathers say this), and the latter being an example of the perichoresis of the Persons.
 
The question I asked was why does an all powerful God need a helper in the Holy Spirit (see John 14:16-17).
What kind of question is that? The Holy Spirit is himself one of the persons of God. The Holy Spirit is God in person. And it is not God who needs a helper,but men.
 
There is a temporal procession (the Fathers say proinai).

The Fathers do not refer only to temporal procession when they use the word proinai,but also eternal procession. They do not distinguish between the way the Holy Spirit proceeds temporally and the way he proceeds eternally.

The Spirit also proceeds eternally from the source of the Father and through the Son (numerous Fathers say this), and the latter being an example of the perichoresis of the Persons.

And the logical consequence of the belief that the Spirit proceeds through the Son is that the Spirit also proceeds from the Son. Otherwise,the Spirit is merely residing in the Son and not going out to creation.
 
I don’t claim to be able to explain Gods essence and neither does any other eastern Christian. Not even the great saints of the Church, including St. Gregory Nazianzen as quoted, believed they could explain Gods essence.

Further, I don’t even know what you are unsure about in that first paragraph. Is it the fact that God is a communion of persons? Or is it that God is not a monad like muslims believe? Both these are shown by the doctrine of the Trinity. All three are equal in all aspects. None are subordinate to the others. They all freely love each other. The Father begets the Son and the Spirit proceeds from the Father. The Father gives all that He is. And there is a communion between the three persons. So the Spirit can be said to be the Spirit of the Son and the Spirit of the Father. But what this communion is no one can speak of because no one knows of it.

Our religion is not a religion of the reason. Yes, we use our reasoning to know God(as humans it would be impossible for us to not use our reason). But it is only in matters that have been revealed through revelation. You can not make logical deductions and come up with the nature of God. Eastern Christianity, whether it be of the Syrian or the Byzantine type, does not like to define God. Instead they use paradox explain aspects of the faith. They make points at opposite points around the point they are trying to explain and they use those two points on the circumference to explain the center point. They also use symbolism to explain it. What this means is that a large part of eastern Christian theology is apophatic in a sense.

Yes, Christ taught on earth and He taught us what was necessary for salvation but He did not explain to us the innner workings of the Trinity. He has given us knowledge that God is Trinity and that we are to be brought into relationship with the Trinity(through Grace) but He has not revealed what the relationship between the persons of the Trinity is. It is something that is infinitely beyond us.
I think that if you believe that He has not revealed what that relationship is between the Persons of the Trinity, then you need to reread the New Testament again with open eyes.

Knock and it shall be open to you, ask and you shall receive.
 
What kind of question is that? The Holy Spirit is himself one of the persons of God. The Holy Spirit is God in person. And it is not God who needs a helper,but men.
Quite so!

Sadly, some people fall into that mode of thinking more or less without thinking about it, and the Creed should help them avoid it. It should clarify, not confuse.
 
Quite so!

Sadly, some people fall into that mode of thinking more or less without thinking about it, and the Creed should help them avoid it. It should clarify, not confuse.
And that is the reason for adding filioque clause in the first place.😃
 
What kind of question is that? The Holy Spirit is himself one of the persons of God. The Holy Spirit is God in person. And it is not God who needs a helper,but men.
Good that you asked that question…

NO ONE KNOWS!

The nature of Procession, and likewise the nature of Begottenness are actually unknown to us! We cannot comprehend it, it’s literally ‘bewildering’.

***Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious ***has more meaning to us, because it’s origins can be traced to a human source, and it can have a conceivable meaning for us. We can wrap our heads around it.

Not so the essence of the Divine, it is beyond our reach. What little we do know is a Gift, the rest we have to take on Faith. It is not necessary or wise to embellish revelation with our imagination.

Do we love God any the less because of that? I think not.

Are we more faithful, better and more loving Christians once we imagine some spiration of a hypostasis? Are we any more certain of our salvation?

Have we put on Christ?
 
NOTE: My answer to my post #247 above was actually intended to respond to this post, not the other which shows.

Probably not the last time I do something stupid like that.
So the Holy Spirit processes through the Son.

So does He pass right through like the wind through a screen?

Chuck
Good that you asked that question…

NO ONE KNOWS!

etc.

(apologies to anthony022071) 😃
 
I think that if you believe that He has not revealed what that relationship is between the Persons of the Trinity, then you need to reread the New Testament again with open eyes.

Knock and it shall be open to you, ask and you shall receive.
So can you explain to me what begottenness is? I think this is time for St. Gregory of Nazianzen to respond to you.

“You ask,” he says, "what is the procession of the Holy Spirit? Do you tell me first what is the unbegottenness of the Father, and I will then explain to you the physiology

of the generation of the Son, and the procession of the Spirit, and we shall both of us be stricken with madness for prying into the mystery of God."
 
For the record we cannot share communion with you because:
  • the doctrine of filioque clause:
concocted circa 580-590AD,

adopted at Aachen 809AD

first used in Rome 1014AD

proclaimed dogma at Lateran1215AD

​
  • the doctrine of Papal infallibility 1870AD
  • the doctrine of universal jurisdiction 1870AD
    Resolving any one alone will improve the climate between us, but will not heal the schism.
Those three above are the biggies, and most of the lesser problems derive from these three. We are not looking for anything new to maintain a schism. Your church has invented all of the reasons we are not in communion already and they stand out for all to see right now. Remove them all and mutual communion could be virtually automatic.

You (your church, that is, not you personally) created this mess, and you will have to fix them, one at a time if need be. I will take it that your unwillingness to do the right thing in regard to the filioque is evidence that you* personally* are not really interested in reconciliation between our communions. I feel that you do not speak for your church when you state the things you do about this.

I will never accept that we cannot be reconciled. I have too much faith in the resilience of the Roman Catholic church, it has only to open it’s collective hearts.

Michael
The doctrine of the filioque clause was not concted in 580-590.
It had been around since the 4th century and it came from the East.

St. Epiphanius:

“For the Only-Begotten Himself calls Him [the Spirit] ‘the Spirit of the Father,’ and says of Him that ‘He proceeds from the Father,’ and ‘will receive of mine,’ so that He is reckoned as not being foreign to the Father nor to the Son, but is of their same substance, of the same Godhead; He is Spirit Divine … of God, and He is God. For He is Spirit of God, Spirit of the Father and Spirit of the Son, not by some kind of synthesis, like soul and body in us, but in the midst of Father and Son, of the Father and of the Son, a Third by appellation. … The Father always existed and the Son always existed, and the Spirit breathes from the Father and the Son; and neither is the Son created nor is the Spirit created.” (Ankyrotos or The Man Well Anchored, A.D. 374).

“For the Only-Begotten Himself calls Him [the Spirit] ‘the Spirit of the Father,’ and says of Him that ‘He proceeds from the Father,’ and ‘will receive of mine,’ so that He is reckoned as not being foreign to the Father nor to the Son, but is of their same substance, of the same Godhead; He is Spirit Divine … of God, and He is God. For He is Spirit of God, Spirit of the Father and Spirit of the Son, not by some kind of synthesis, like soul and body in us, but in the midst of Father and Son, of the Father and of the Son, a Third by appellation. … The Father always existed and the Son always existed, and the Spirit breathes from the Father and the Son; and neither is the Son created nor is the Spirit created.” (Ankyrotos or The Man Well Anchored, A.D. 374).

"The Spirit is always with the Father and the Son, … proceeding from the Father and receiving of the Son, not foreign to the Father and the Son, but of the same substance, of the same Godhead, of the Father and the Son, He is with the Father and the Son, Holy Spirit ever subsisting, Spirit Divine, Spirit of glory, Spirit of Christ, Spirit of the Father. … He is Third in appellation, equal in Divinity, not different as compared to Father and Son, connecting Bond of the Trinity, Ratifying Seal of the Creed. (Panarion)

“No one knows the Spirit, besides the Father, except the Son, from Whom He proceeds (proienai) and of Whom He receives.” (OP… cit., xi, in P.G., XLIII, 35):

Council of Seleucia (410):

“…the Holy Living Spirit, the Holy Living Paraclete, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son.” (Lamy, “Concilium Seleucia”, Louvain, 1868).
 
americancatholicpress.org/Father_%20Gilligan_Filioque_clause_page1.html

Historical origins

As Johannes Grohe has pointed out, a regional council in Persia in 4l0 introduced one of the earliest forms of the filioque in the Creed; the council specified that the Spirit proceeds from the Father “and from the Son.” Coming from the rich theology of early East Syrian Christianity, this expression in this context is authentically Eastern. Therefore, the fulioque cannot be attacked as a solely Western innovation, nor as something created by the Pope.

In the West, St. Augustine of Hippo taught that the Spirit came from the Father and the Son, though subordinate to neither. His theology was dominant in the West until the Middle Ages, including his theology of the Trinity. Other Latin Fathers also spoke of the Spirit proceeding from both the Father and the Son. While familiar in the West, this way of speaking was virtually unknown in the Greek speaking, Eastern Roman Empire.

Here for example, is St. Augustine’s teaching that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son:

But when the Father is known by someone in time he is not said to have been sent. For he has not got anyone else to be from or to proceed from. Wisdom says, I went forth from the mouth of the Most High (Sir 24:5), and of the Holy Spirit he says, He proceeds from the Father (Jn 15:26), but the Father is from no one.
Just as the Father, then, begot and the Son was begotten, so the Father sent and the Son was sent. But just as the begetter and the begotten are one, so are the sender and the sent, because the Father and the Son are one, so too the Holy Spirit is one with them, because these three ate one (1 Jn 5:7). And just as being born means for the Son his being from the Father, so his being sent means his being known to proceed from him… Nor, by the way, can we say that the Holy Spirit does not proceed form the Son as well; it is not without point that the same Spirit is called the Spirit of the Father and of the Son. And I cannot see what else he intended to signify when he breathed and said Receive the Holy Spirit (Jn 20:22). Not that the physical breath that came from his body and was physically felt was the substance of the Holy Spirit proceed from the Son as well as form the Father. Surely you would have to be out of you mind to say that it was on Spirit which he gave by breathing and another which he sent after his ascension. No, the Spirit of God is one, the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, the Holy Spirit who works all ways in all men (1 Cor 12:6). . .

By saying then, Whom I will send you from the Father (Jn 15:26), the Lord showed that the Spirit is both the Father’s and the Son’s. Elsewhere too, when he said, whom the Father will send, he added, in my name (Jn 14:26). He did hot however say, “whom the Father will send form me” as he had said whom I will send from the Father (Jn 15:26), and thereby he indicated that the source of all godhead, or if you prefer it, of all deity, is the Father. So the Spirit who proceeds from the Father and the Son is traced back, on both counts, to him of whom the Son is born.2

In the Latin-speaking Church, the phrase and and the Son (in Latin filioque) was first added to the Nicene Creed at the Synod of Toledo in Spain in 447. The formula was used in a letter from Pope Leo I to the members of that synod, responding to heresies they were confronting. (Primarily, it was added to the Creed in order to oppose the Arian heresy, which taught that the Son was a creature and not God. This heresy began with Arius, a priest of Alexandria.) At the third synod of Toledo in 589, the ruling Visigoths, who had been Arian Christians, submitted to the Catholic Church. They were obliged to accept the Nicene Creed with the filioque.

(In the East, Arianism was opposed, not with the filioque but rather with an orientation of many of the prayers of the Divine Liturgy to “Christ Our God. This development in the East, with a comparable, dogmatic concern, occurred much earlier, in the fourth century, when Arianism in the East was widespread and greatly controverted.)
 
The doctrine of the filioque clause was not concted in 580-590.
It had been around since the 4th century and it came from the East.

St. Epiphanius:

“For the Only-Begotten Himself calls Him [the Spirit] ‘the Spirit of the Father,’ and says of Him that ‘He proceeds from the Father,’ and ‘will receive of mine,’ so that He is reckoned as not being foreign to the Father nor to the Son, but is of their same substance, of the same Godhead; He is Spirit Divine … of God, and He is God. For He is Spirit of God, Spirit of the Father and Spirit of the Son, not by some kind of synthesis, like soul and body in us, but in the midst of Father and Son, of the Father and of the Son, a Third by appellation. … The Father always existed and the Son always existed, and the Spirit breathes from the Father and the Son; and neither is the Son created nor is the Spirit created.” (Ankyrotos or The Man Well Anchored, A.D. 374).

“For the Only-Begotten Himself calls Him [the Spirit] ‘the Spirit of the Father,’ and says of Him that ‘He proceeds from the Father,’ and ‘will receive of mine,’ so that He is reckoned as not being foreign to the Father nor to the Son, but is of their same substance, of the same Godhead; He is Spirit Divine … of God, and He is God. For He is Spirit of God, Spirit of the Father and Spirit of the Son, not by some kind of synthesis, like soul and body in us, but in the midst of Father and Son, of the Father and of the Son, a Third by appellation. … The Father always existed and the Son always existed, and the Spirit breathes from the Father and the Son; and neither is the Son created nor is the Spirit created.” (Ankyrotos or The Man Well Anchored, A.D. 374).

"The Spirit is always with the Father and the Son, … proceeding from the Father and receiving of the Son, not foreign to the Father and the Son, but of the same substance, of the same Godhead, of the Father and the Son, He is with the Father and the Son, Holy Spirit ever subsisting, Spirit Divine, Spirit of glory, Spirit of Christ, Spirit of the Father. … He is Third in appellation, equal in Divinity, not different as compared to Father and Son, connecting Bond of the Trinity, Ratifying Seal of the Creed. (Panarion)

“No one knows the Spirit, besides the Father, except the Son, from Whom He proceeds (proienai) and of Whom He receives.” (OP… cit., xi, in P.G., XLIII, 35):

Council of Seleucia (410):

“…the Holy Living Spirit, the Holy Living Paraclete, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son.” (Lamy, “Concilium Seleucia”, Louvain, 1868).
In the Syriac the prepositions “from” and “through” would be the same.
 
So can you explain to me what begottenness is? I think this is time for St. Gregory of Nazianzen to respond to you.

“You ask,” he says, "what is the procession of the Holy Spirit? Do you tell me first what is the unbegottenness of the Father, and I will then explain to you the physiology

of the generation of the Son, and the procession of the Spirit, and we shall both of us be stricken with madness for prying into the mystery of God."
So you are saying that God is unknowable? That there is no way for us to know God? I disagree with that statement.

Now I do agree that there is a certain point or wall that we can reach which beyond that we cannot grasp due to our limitations being creatures. But God has made Himself known to us to the level that our intellect can handle.

We know that God the Father has no origin. We know that the Son has His origin from the Father. And we know that the Holy Spirit has His origin from the Father and the Son. We also know that we are not talking about three beings but one Being. We also know that we are talking about three Persons not different modes of the same Being. We also know that these three Persons are equally God. These have been reveal to us by a God who wants to have a personal relationship with us. We know He wants us to know something about Him if not He would not have made Himself known to us. And we know that we should meditate or contemplate Him to strive and learn as much about Him as we can. For there is no greater place or object to direct our thoughts and love than God.
 
So you are saying that God is unknowable? That there is no way for us to know God? I disagree with that statement.

Now I do agree that there is a certain point or wall that we can reach which beyond that we cannot grasp due to our limitations being creatures. But God has made Himself known to us to the level that our intellect can handle.

We know that God the Father has no origin. We know that the Son has His origin from the Father. And we know that the Holy Spirit has His origin from the Father and the Son. We also know that we are not talking about three beings but one Being. We also know that we are talking about three Persons not different modes of the same Being. We also know that these three Persons are equally God. These have been reveal to us by a God who wants to have a personal relationship with us. We know He wants us to know something about Him if not He would not have made Himself known to us. And we know that we should meditate or contemplate Him to strive and learn as much about Him as we can. For there is no greater place or object to direct our thoughts and love than God.
God had not revealed that the Spirit has his origin from the Son. It’s conclusioin reached from directing our thoughts on Him, mediating and contemplating Him to strive and learn as much about Him as we can. And thus prying into the mystery of God, the human mind deceived itself into thinking that the Spirit has his origin from the Son.
 
God had not revealed that the Spirit has his origin from the Son. It’s conclusioin reached from directing our thoughts on Him, mediating and contemplating Him to strive and learn as much about Him as we can. And thus prying into the mystery of God, the human mind deceived itself into thinking that the Spirit has his origin from the Son.
Catholics do not believe that the Holy Spirit has its ultimate origin from the Son. The Spirit comes principally from the Father alone,because the Father,being Fatherhood,is logically prior to the Son. The Spirit originates from Father and Son together because they are one and the Son has all that the Father has.
The procession cannot be considered apart from the mystery of the oneness of the Father and Son.
 
Catholics do not believe that the Holy Spirit has its ultimate origin from the Son. The Spirit comes principally from the Father alone,because the Father,being Fatherhood,is logically prior to the Son. The Spirit originates from Father and Son together because they are one and the Son has all that the Father has.
The procession cannot be considered apart from the mystery of the oneness of the Father and Son.
Be carefull with what you say. It sounds like you are making the Spirit inferior to the Son. So does the Spirit also have all that the Father and Son have? If so then you must conclude that He proceeds from Himself. If not then He is inferior. The arguementation you are employing is faulty.

Just as the Father and Son are one, so are the Father and the Spirit and the Son and the Spirit. The Spirit is included in the oneness of the Trinity.

Rose, I think Hesychios’ last post with the picture illustrates the meaning of definitions about God.
 
Be carefull with what you say. It sounds like you are making the Spirit inferior to the Son. So does the Spirit also have all that the Father and Son have? If so then you must conclude that He proceeds from Himself. If not then He is inferior. The arguementation you are employing is faulty.

Just as the Father and Son are one, so are the Father and the Spirit and the Son and the Spirit. The Spirit is included in the oneness of the Trinity.
It doesn’t follow that the Holy Spirit is made inferior to the Son or that he proceeds from himself. The Son sends the Spirit just as he is from the Father.

Cyril of Alexandria:

"For although the Spirit is the same essence, yet we think of Him by Himself, as He is the Spirit and not the Son; but He is not unconnected with Him [the Son]; for He is called the Spirit of Truth and Christ is the Truth, and He is sent by Him just as He is from God the Father. …Since, therefore, He is the Spirit of the Power and Wisdom of the Father, that is, of the Son, He is evidently Wisdom and Power. (Epist., xvii, Ad Nestorium, De excommunicatione in P.G., LXXVII, 117)

"We must not say that the one Lord Jesus Christ has been glorified by the Spirit, in such a way as to suggest that through the Spirit He made use of a power foreign to Himself, and from the Spirit received the ability to work against unclean spirits, and to perform Divine signs among men; but must rather say that the Spirit, through Whom He did indeed work His Divine signs, is His own. [The Twelve Errors, Error 9, 430 A.D.]

There is no deficiency in the essence of the Son for being begotten of the Father,so there is no deficiency in the essence of the Spirit for proceeding from the Son. See the quotes in posts 201 and 225.

And the Son does not proceed from himself,so it does not follow that the Spirit should proceed from himself.
 
It doesn’t follow that the Holy Spirit is made inferior to the Son or that he proceeds from himself. The Son sends the Spirit just as he is from the Father.

Cyril of Alexandria:

"For although the Spirit is the same essence, yet we think of Him by Himself, as He is the Spirit and not the Son; but He is not unconnected with Him [the Son]; for He is called the Spirit of Truth and Christ is the Truth, and He is sent by Him just as He is from God the Father. …Since, therefore, He is the Spirit of the Power and Wisdom of the Father, that is, of the Son, He is evidently Wisdom and Power. (Epist., xvii, Ad Nestorium, De excommunicatione in P.G., LXXVII, 117)

"We must not say that the one Lord Jesus Christ has been glorified by the Spirit, in such a way as to suggest that through the Spirit He made use of a power foreign to Himself, and from the Spirit received the ability to work against unclean spirits, and to perform Divine signs among men; but must rather say that the Spirit, through Whom He did indeed work His Divine signs, is His own. [The Twelve Errors, Error 9, 430 A.D.]

There is no deficiency in the essence of the Son for being begotten of the Father,so there is no deficiency in the essence of the Spirit for proceeding from the Son. See the quotes in posts 201 and 225.

And the Son does not proceed from himself,so it does not follow that the Spirit should proceed from himself.
The quotes do indeed say the Spirit is not inferior to the Son.

Only problem the quotes have nothing to do with the eternal procession from the Son according to filioque.

the quotes of 225 would imply subordination.
 
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