The final athiesm and Summa Contra Gentiles

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Science is not concerned with providing “ultimate”, “cast in stone”, “unchangeable” answers.
And yet, that’s not what you claimed: you only claimed that Aquinas was unable to create reasonable arguments, since the science of the day was underdeveloped.
And that is why science is only interested in physics and not metaphysics.
Because physics is a physical science and metaphysics is not. Right. I’m not seeing the great insight you think you just laid down… 🤷
Aquinas (just like other philosophers) attempts to draw “final” conclusions (metaphysics) from a changing phenomena (physics) and that is why they keep on failing.
This doesn’t stand to reason. All physical matter changes. If one is unable to draw ‘final’ conclusions on the nature of a physical object, simply since it undergoes change, then one is unable to do ‘science’ – physics itself would be an empty endeavor if the existence of changing phenomena led to an inability to postulate unchanging truths.

As memory serves, the early Greek philosophers tried this claim that you’re recapitulating for us, and Aristotle smashed it convincingly. 🤷
Of course there would be nothing wrong with it, except that most philosophers assert that they have the answers.
Umm… so do most scientists. 😉
 
Any details of the Bing Bang are irrelevant.
I’ve not gone into the details. You mentioned something that an atheist might say about the Big Bang and I shared a non-exhaustive list of other things that such a person might say. There’s are many stances that one may have. You won’t find a single stance that would be that of every atheist on the planet for this topic.
Saying “I don’t know where the material in the Big Bang came from” is to not address the existence of God.
If by that you are saying that it doesn’t address whether or not there exists God/gods then I would agree. As there are people of various stances on the god/God proposition that also evaluate their understandings of the Big Bang as probably true.
Are you saying the human mind is not equipped to address this question?
I’m not sure if you are asking if I humans can evaluate the possibility of the existence of a specific god/God or if humans can examine information that suggest the earlier state of the universe.
 
Bottom line: do we know enough about matter to say whether it can exist without the flow of time, and yet still have a potency tending towards its “big bang”

I am surprised nobody has brought up Einstein yet
 
Bottom line:
Okay…
do we know enough about matter to say whether it can exist without the flow of time
I can’t find any meaningful interpretation of the question. Our measure/observation of time is through observing matter and counting events that occur from matter. You may have to look among a more specialized group of people than what you’ll find here in CAF to find anyone that is familiar with models that separate matter from SpaceTime.
, and yet still have a potency tending towards its “big bang”
I also don’t have any meaningful interpretation for this either.There are nuclear processes that were thought to have happened after the early big bang that are observed to happen when there’s a sufficient amount of matter. Won’t go into the details since you’ve explicitly stated these are irrelevant.
I am surprised nobody has brought up Einstein yet
While Einstein talked about time dilation I don’t know that he’s ever mentioned any situation in which time has come to a complete stop. If you think he said something relevant to the discussion then you may have to be the person to introduce it into discussion.
 
And yet, that’s not what you claimed: you only claimed that Aquinas was unable to create reasonable arguments, since the science of the day was underdeveloped.
If you would go back to the OP, you would see the claim I was referring to.
Umm… so do most scientists. 😉
Not at all. Scientists are aware that they only have provisional answers, and they are (or should be) ready to change, amend or even discard the current theory, if and when the new development warrants it. Only some philosophers “claim” that they have the “answers”.
 
One can’t summarize the Atheist–new or otherwise–understanding of the universe because…there is no set belief for Atheists on any issue except one.

The only belief all Atheists have in common is that they don’t believe a god exists. Other than that, their views in every other area–science, the universe, morality, the afterlife, biology, abortion, same-sex marriage, politics, the environment, etc-- may differ vastly.

Atheism is not a worldview or a belief system.

It’s just seeing no evidence to a Theist’s claim that a god exists.
Period.

.
Speaking as an atheist, I would say this is exactly correct. Atheist is a descriptive term for people who lack a faith in god and nothing more. It includes people who simply do not believe in a god (agnostic atheists like me) and people who affirmatively believe that they can demonstrate that there is not god (gnostic atheists, a rarity). It certainly is not a belief system. And atheists could believe all sorts of other supernatural stuff like reincarnation, karma, etc.
 
Yes and no. On the surface, atheism does not have a systematic group of followers or a creed outside the belief that no God exists.

But the consequences of atheism are generally (if not universally) predictable

Including:

Moral and Intellectual Relativism.

Fatalism.

Pessimism.

Etc.
Actually fatalism and pessimism don’t really follow and most atheists I know are neither pessimistic or fatalistic nor intellectual relativists. Most however, do not believe in objective morality.
 
The question I have, as an atheist, is do you think that the Big Bang theory is incompatible with belief in god? Because there are many christian scientists who do subscribe to it.
 
@Jenny_A

Welcome to the forums! You came at an excellent time. Until fairly recently threads on atheism had been prohibited. According to another thread people of all religious classifications (including atheist) are welcome here and the motivations you expressed for being here (to ask and answer questions but not convert) are compatible with the forum guidelines.
 
. . . do you think that the Big Bang theory is incompatible with belief in god? . . .
What is described in the Big Bang Theory in terms of what followed the moment in which the universe began would not be incompatible with a belief in God.
God of course began the processes by creating time and other elements that constitute the cosmos.
The development of creation from light, to more “concrete” matter, to simple organic life and ultimately to the creation of man is described in Genesis, using terms that are understandable to people with open minds and hearts in all cultures in all times. Don’t forget the angels although science does not address them
But, there are variations in the theory that may not be compatible with reality. It is a theory that must generate testable hypotheses. It may not look as it currently does, a hundred years from now.
I would add that there are speculations in the media associated with the Theory that are incompatible not only with a belief in God, but also a belief in the scientific method.
 
The question I have, as an atheist, is do you think that the Big Bang theory is incompatible with belief in god? Because there are many christian scientists who do subscribe to it.
I’ve been lurking here for a few weeks, and felt it was an opportune time to jump in.

First of all, I am an atheist, but more towards the agnostic end of the spectrum; I lack belief in God, I don’t reject that God, by some definition, could not exist, but simply that I don’t see the need for God to exist.

That all put aside, I think there needs to be some clarity on what cosmologists and physicists mean by the Big Bang. You will note a bit of a disclaimer by any researcher when discussing the Big Bang or inflationary theory; and that is that these interlinked theories deal with the observable universe.

That’s not to say that scientists won’t hypothesize about the entire universe. It doesn’t seem an unreasonable assumption that the unobservable parts of the Universe don’t behave by the same physical interactions as the parts we can see, but as we can’t see those other regions of the Universe, it remains at best an educated guest.

There are a number of highly speculative models of what came “before” the Big Bang (if that even makes sense, I’ll touch on that in a moment). The Big Bang might have been an event localized to what we call the observable universe, and thus not an, ahem, universal event. It could be that our universe is a “baby” universe formed out of another universe. Our universe could simply be a sort of daughter universe, or brane, of a metaverse. Again, these are all speculative, and brane theory is largely built out of string theory, which remains highly controversial, and while an interesting mathematical model, may actually have nothing at all to do with the actual Universe itself.

For myself, I have to accept that while the Big Bang is the origin of the observable universe, nothing beyond that can be proclaimed as any of fact, provisional or otherwise. That the observable universe was once much denser and much hotter, and then began to expand and cool (become less dense), is a much a “fact” (a dangerous and loaded word, to be sure) as anything in science is a fact.

I’m not even sure that the notion of “before” even has any meaning if you’re talking about the origin of the Universe. Causality certainly applies within the Universe, but to try to extend that beyond the beginning of the Universe may in fact not even make sense (as Stephen Hawking famously said, it’s like asking what’s north of the North Pole).

In that light, I simply do not accept the Prime Mover argument (that the Universe needed someone or something to kickstart it). If one insists on Prime Mover logic, then it creates an sort of infinite regression, in which I can answer “What started God?”, to which a theist would reply “Well, clearly there needs to be an Eternal uncaused entity”, and I will then invoke Occam’s Razor, declare that if some entity can in fact be uncaused, I will remove the entity that I have no evidence for (God), and apply this attribute of being uncaused to the Universe itself.

What I won’t do, of course, is pretend that my logic is science, or somehow backed by science. All the science, at this point at least, has to say is that the observable universe was once very hot and very dense, and then began to expand and cool.
 
That all put aside, I think there needs to be some clarity on what cosmologists and physicists mean by the Big Bang. You will note a bit of a disclaimer by any researcher when discussing the Big Bang or inflationary theory; and that is that these interlinked theories deal with the observable universe.
I think a lot of time is saved when term usage is shared. There have been discussions here in which some scientific figure is ridiculed for having referred to a “multiverse” that I think are the result of it not always being known what may be meant by the term “multiverse.” The term has at least 7 different usages that I’ve found. One usage is other areas of the universe that might exists but are simply not observable to us (because of distance, limits on the speed of light, so on). Someone in one of these areas (if there is anything that could be called a someone) might be unable to observer our area of the Universe too. It would be much like a us not being able to see a person over the horizon and them not being able to see us. It seems that some are more inclined to interpret the usage as a reference to the many worlds model in which there exists an infinite number of universes that express all possible outcomes, possible decisions, and so on.

Thanks for adding the note of clarity.
 
This is my understanding of the new athiests understanding of the universe:

First there was a single point. It was just there, as you say God is just there. It was apart from or seperate from time, but ticked away towards explosive, had a potency to explode apart from time. There was no time before it, so its exposion was the start of eternity. Just as when you have a certain chemical atomic reaction there is an atomic explosion, when matter forms in a certain way there is life, even intellegent life. A material living brain is intelligence by definition. This resulted from the ordered explosion of the point (singularity). Looking at a piece of wood, or a leaf, one has trouble understanding how organized matter can think and feel. However, one is seeing the outside reality of the matter only in that thought, and is in fact thinking about it with inside reality and power of the matter of the brain.

This sounds like Star Wars to me.

Now there is no doubt Aquinas wanted to work out an actual physics argument for God. That is, that without a spiritual first cause, the motion of the universe makes no physical sense. This is apart from probability arguments of teleology. So far, I’ve found no one who pins down what Aquinas’s argument(s) is. So “let’s try again”. :cool:
The law of physics cannot resolve the problem of beginning since they are time invariance.
 
The law of physics cannot resolve the problem of beginning since they are time invariance.
What does time invariance mean?

I think when atheist say the world came from nothing, they could be referring to the point-singularity, since that is a spacial nothing. Atheists nowadays speak of nothing having certain properties. The more I think about this however, I don’t think there is any way to separate time from matter. Therefore there must be a spiritual God! Saying time is eternal, either through one universe or multi-universes, is absurd to my experience of time. Your mind is not feeling the idea of time if you think it could have been eternal. Once people accept its possibility, they reject any empirical PROOF for God. Aquinas scientific arguments are faulty. Why could there not have been an eternal dominoes series? Aquinas’s Prime Mover means nothing at that point.

Now I’ve been wondering about atheists saying “the big bang created itself”. I think they are saying that this point has a power to act, analogous to human will but not the same. Singularities go bang, that is just what singularities do. There was no time before it. There is just the bang and what comes after. This too makes no sense to me, because WHY is there no time before it.

The only explanation I see is a spiritual God, or Gods, whatever…
 
I think a lot of time is saved when term usage is shared. There have been discussions here in which some scientific figure is ridiculed for having referred to a “multiverse” that I think are the result of it not always being known what may be meant by the term “multiverse.” The term has at least 7 different usages that I’ve found. One usage is other areas of the universe that might exists but are simply not observable to us (because of distance, limits on the speed of light, so on). Someone in one of these areas (if there is anything that could be called a someone) might be unable to observer our area of the Universe too. It would be much like a us not being able to see a person over the horizon and them not being able to see us. It seems that some are more inclined to interpret the usage as a reference to the many worlds model in which there exists an infinite number of universes that express all possible outcomes, possible decisions, and so on.

Thanks for adding the note of clarity.
7 different usages of multiverse? Could you list them maybe? Might add something interesting to this discussion
 
What does time invariance mean?

I think when atheist say the world came from nothing, they could be referring to the point-singularity, since that is a spacial nothing. Atheists nowadays speak of nothing having certain properties.
I think the word you want there is NOT “atheist” but “physicist.” Really, there are number of physicists who are Christian, or believers in some other god who are interested in determining the physical beginnings of the universe. There are also many atheists who know nothing to speak of about the big bang. Science and god and are not either or possibilities, you can have both or neither.
The more I think about this however, I don’t think there is any way to separate time from matter.
Not sure I understand what you mean here. A big bang proponent would tell you that not only matter but time began with the big bang.
Therefore there must be a spiritual God!
Can’t see how that follows.
Saying time is eternal, either through one universe or multi-universes, is absurd to my experience of time. Your mind is not feeling the idea of time if you think it could have been eternal.
Do you think it will be eternal hence forward. I thought that heaven was supposed to be eternal. If it could be eternal in one direction why not the other?

In any case the big bang is a singularity. The rules, and I mean all of the physical rules could have been quite different before it. So our sense of what this world is like is not relevant to before it.
Once people accept its possibility, they reject any empirical PROOF for God. Aquinas scientific arguments are faulty. Why could there not have been an eternal dominoes series? Aquinas’s Prime Mover means nothing at that point.
Really? I do reject the first mover proof, because the question arises what caused the first mover. So far as I know there is no empirical proof of god to reject. Aquinas’ argument is not empirical.
Now I’ve been wondering about atheists saying “the big bang created itself”.
Once again the word you want here is physicist. Physicist and atheist are not synonyms.
I think they are saying that this point has a power to act, analogous to human will but not the same. Singularities go bang, that is just what singularities do. There was no time before it. There is just the bang and what comes after. This too makes no sense to me, because WHY is there no time before it.

The only explanation I see is a spiritual God, or Gods, whatever…
It’s not that there is nothing before the big bang only that there is no evidence of what was before it. You can label before god, if you like, but it could be anything.
 
I simply do not accept the Prime Mover argument (that the Universe needed someone or something to kickstart it). If one insists on Prime Mover logic, then it creates an sort of infinite regression, in which I can answer “What started God?”, to which a theist would reply “Well, clearly there needs to be an Eternal uncaused entity”, and I will then invoke Occam’s Razor, declare that if some entity can in fact be uncaused, I will remove the entity that I have no evidence for (God), and apply this attribute of being uncaused to the Universe itself.
Hmm… odd approach. After all, ‘Prime Mover’ logic is a solution to the problem of infinite regression – it doesn’t create the problem! It observes that no creation creates itself, but that it proceeds from some other created object, and so on, and so on, and so on…

And yet, you claim that, since you can’t ‘prove’ God, you replace an Eternal uncaused (i.e., Divine) entity with the universe itself, and claim that the universe (a creation) created itself. In other words, you remove the solution, and with nothing to take its place, you declare the problem solved. In other words, you ignore the starting premise, and declare that there is an uncreated creation! Odd… :hmmm:
 
What does time invariance mean?
It means that laws of physics does not change with changing t->t+a where a is constant. In simple word, the laws of physics are same in past, now and future. The laws of physics are simply predictive, meaning that given the state of matter at a given moment it can predict the state of matter in latter time. The point beginning however an exception since there is no point before meaning that we are dealing with an anomaly which is not resolvable with physicalism for the reason that is explained, namely the laws of physics are predictive hence the point beginning is anomalous in physicalism.
I think when atheist say the world came from nothing, they could be referring to the point-singularity, since that is a spacial nothing.
Singularity is a misconception for hiding our ignorance in subject matter since it claims that everything is explicable far from singularity and is ambiguous at the point of singularity. One however can argue that there must exist some meaningful content at singular point otherwise nothing meaningful could possibly emerge from it which this is contrary to concept of singularity since nothing is definable at the point of singularity.
Atheists nowadays speak of nothing having certain properties. The more I think about this however, I don’t think there is any way to separate time from matter.
Because you imagine reality physically. In reality there is no time! Just think about it, time in physicalism is a variable which allows us to construct a set of equation to predict future yet this set of equation cannot explain the point of beginning as it is illustrated.
Therefore there must be a spiritual God!
Again you try to imagine the reality physically and resolve the problem of the beginning with something so called God. The beginning is anomalous in physicalism and there is not any preference to believe in God or a singularity. Why you don’t question physicalism? Why metaphysical principles should be physical principles?
Saying time is eternal, either through one universe or multi-universes, is absurd to my experience of time.
Why you don’t question time itself? To the best of my understanding and experience there is nothing such as time. What we experience in simple word are form and motion. Time is a simple invention.
Your mind is not feeling the idea of time if you think it could have been eternal. Once people accept its possibility, they reject any empirical PROOF for God. Aquinas scientific arguments are faulty. Why could there not have been an eternal dominoes series? Aquinas’s Prime Mover means nothing at that point.
Eternal time is not possible for two reasons: 1) time does not exist, 2) it takes infinite waiting to reach from eternal past to eternal now which is impossible.
Now I’ve been wondering about atheists saying “the big bang created itself”. I think they are saying that this point has a power to act, analogous to human will but not the same. Singularities go bang, that is just what singularities do. There was no time before it. There is just the bang and what comes after. This too makes no sense to me, because WHY is there no time before it.
You are correct in your observation. We are dealing with a lot of misconceptions and that is why we cannot see reality as it is. There is no time and there is no beginning. Problem solved! What is reality? We have to think through and improve our imagination.
The only explanation I see is a spiritual God, or Gods, whatever…
God doesn’t solve the problem as it is illustrated.
 
Hmm… odd approach. After all, ‘Prime Mover’ logic is a solution to the problem of infinite regression – it doesn’t create the problem! It observes that no creation creates itself, but that it proceeds from some other created object, and so on, and so on, and so on…

And yet, you claim that, since you can’t ‘prove’ God, you replace an Eternal uncaused (i.e., Divine) entity with the universe itself, and claim that the universe (a creation) created itself. In other words, you remove the solution, and with nothing to take its place, you declare the problem solved. In other words, you ignore the starting premise, and declare that there is an uncreated creation! Odd… :hmmm:
The first problem is the premise that everything has a cause. You reach that result from inductive reasoning, i.e. everything I see has a cause, therefore everything must have a cause. You can look at a tree and say it came from a seed, and that a baby came from a sperm and an egg, or that the Grand Canyon was carved by wind and water. But we don’t see and have never seen something from nothing, only changes in form. Even quantum particles winking in and out in what we like to think of as empty space are formed of existing energy, not out of nothing. That something could be created out of nothing is beyond our power of inductive reasoning, because we’ve never seen a single example, let alone enough to make generalizations about whether such an event would have a cause. So despite being presented as the product of inductive reasoning, the premise is not really justified by inductive reasoning.

Second, even if you accept the premise, the “solution” of a first mover is no solution at all, it simply says there must be something that doesn’t have a cause and we’ll call that the first mover, or god. The problem is that if the premise is true, there could be no such being because such a being would have to be without a cause.

Humanity is vast, and so I’m sure there must be someone somewhere who was once convinced of the existence of god by the first mover argument, but they must be a kind of singularity themselves. Those of us who don’t believe remain unconvinced because the argument is ultimately unconvincing. Those people who accept the argument already believe in god before hand. As a tool for conversion it’s a failure.
 
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