The First 1500 Years Of Christianity Were Catholic

[Dan-Man916]

1. By reason of her purpose and the means she uses to effect it the Church is a supernatural spiritual society. (Sent. certa.)
2. The Church is a perfect society. (Sent. certa.)
3. Christ gave His Church an hierarchial constitution. (De fide.)
4. The powers bestowed on the Apostles have descended to the bishops. (De fide.)
5. Christ appointed the Apostle Peter to be the first of all the Apostles and to be the visible head of the whole Church, by appointing him immediately and personally to the primacy of jurisdiction. (De fide.)
6. According to Christ’s ordinance, Peter is to have successors in his Primacy over the whole Church and for all time. (De fide.)
7. The successors of Peter in the Primacy are the bishops of Rome. (De fide.)
8. The Pope possesses full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, not merely in matters of faith and morals, but also in Church discipline and in the government of the Church. (De fide.)
9. The Pope is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra. (De fide.)
10. By virtue of Divine Right the bishops possess an ordinary power of government over their dioceses. (De fide.)
11. The individual bishop recieves his pastoral power immediately from the Pope. (Sent. probabilior.)
12. Christ founded the Church. (De fide.)
13. Christ is the Head of the Church. (De fide.)
14. Our Redeemer Himself conserves with divine power the society founded by Him, the Church. Pius XII
15. Christ is the Divine Redeemer of His Body, the Church. Pius XII
16. The Holy Ghost is the Soul of the Church. (Sent. communis.)
17. Without the Body(Christ) and Soul(Holy Ghost) you cannot have the Vision (Father).
18. The Church is indefectible, that is, she remains and will remain the Institution of Salvation, founded by Christ, until the end of the world. (Sent. certa.)
19. In the final decision on doctrines concerning faith and morals the Church is infallible. (De fide.)
20. The primary object of the Infallibility is the formally revealed truths of Christian Doctrine concerning faith and morals. (De fide.)
21. The secondary object of the Infallibility is truths of the Christian teaching on faith and morals, which are not formally revealed, but which are closely connected with the teaching of Revelation. (Sent. certa.)
22. The Pope is infallible when he speaks ex cathedra. (De fide.)
23. The totality of the Bishops is infallible, when they, either assembled in general council or scattered over the earth, propose a teaching of faith or morals as one to be held by all the faithful. (De fide.)
    249)The Church founded by Christ is an external visible commonwealth. (Sent. certa.)
24. The Church founded by Christ is unique and one. (De fide.)
25. The Church founded by Christ is holy. (De fide.)
26. Not only those members who are holy but the sinners also belong to the Church. (Sent. certa.)
27. The Church founded by Christ is catholic. (De fide.)
28. The Church founded by Christ is apostolic. (De fide.)
29. The members of the Church are those who have validly recieved the Sacrament of Baptism and who are not separated from the unity of the confession of the Faith, and from the unity of the lawful communion of the Church. (Sent. certa.)

 

[Dan-Man916]

1. Membership of the Church is necessary for all men for salvation. (De fide.) Body and Soul of the Church.
2. The members of the Kingdom of God on earth and in the other world sanctified by the redeeming grace of Christ are united in a common supernatural life with the Head of the Church and with one another. (Sent. certa.)
3. By intercessory prayer the Faithful on earth can procure gifts from God for one another. (Sent. certa.)
4. By good works performed in the state of grace the Faithful on earth can merit de congruo gifts from God. (Sent. probabilis.)
5. The faithful on earth can, by their good works performed in the state of grace, render atonement for one another. (Sent. cert.)
6. It is permissible and profitable to venerate the Saints in Heaven, and to invoke their intercession. (De fide.)
7. It is permissible and profitable to venerate the relics of the Saints. (De fide.)
8. It is permissible and profitable to venerate images of the Saints. (De fide.)
9. The living Faithful can come to the assistance of the Souls in Purgatory by their intercessions (suffrages). (De fide.)
10. The Saints in Heaven also can come to the help of the Souls in Purgatory by their intercession. (Sent. communis.)
11. The Souls in Purgatory can intercede for other members of the Mystical Body. (Sent. probabilis.)
12. Suffrages are of no profit to the damned in Hell as they do not belong to the Mystical Body of Christ. (Sent. communis.)
13. The Sacraments of the New Covenant are effective signs of grace instituted by Christ.
14. The outward sign of the sacraments is composed of two essential parts, namely, thing and word (res et verbum or elementum et verbum). (Sent. fidei proxima.)
15. The Sacraments of the New Covenant contain the grace which they signify, and bestow it on those who do not hinder it. (De fide.)
16. The Sacraments work ex opere operato. (De fide.)
17. All the Sacraments of the New Covenant confer sanctifying grace on the recievers. (De fide.)
18. Each individual sacrament confers a specific sacramental grace. (Sent. communis.)
19. Three Sacraments, Baptism, Confirmation and Holy Orders, imprint a character, that is, an indelible spiritual mark, and for this reason cannot be repeated. (De fide.)
20. The Sacramental Character is a spiritual mark imprinted on the soul. (De fide.)
21. The Sacramental Character confers the full power for the performance of acts of Christian Worship. (Sent. communis.)
22. The Sacramental Character continues at least until the death of its bearer. (De fide.)
23. All the Sacraments of the New Covenant were instituted by Jesus Christ. (De fide.)
24. Christ instituted all the Sacraments immediately and personally. (Sent. certa.)
25. Christ fixed the substance of the Sacraments. The Church has no power to alter them. (Sent. certa.)
26. There are Seven Sacraments of the New Law. (De fide.)
27. God can communicate grace even without the Sacraments. (Sent. certa.)
28. The Sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for the salvation of mankind. (De fide.)
29. The primary minister of the Sacraments is the God-Man Jesus Christ. (Sent. certa.)
30. The secondary minister of the Sacrament is man in the wayfaring state. (Sent. communis).

 

[Dan-Man916]

1. The validity and efficacy of the Sacrament is independent of the minister’s orthodoxy and state of grace.
2. For the valid dispensing of the Sacraments it is necessary that the minister accomplish the Sacramental Sign in the proper manner. (De fide.)
3. The minister must further have the intention at least of doing what the Church does. (De fide.) Trent says if the Matter and form are correct the intention is not to be questioned.
4. Only a person in the wayfaring state can validly recieve a Sacrament. (Sent. communis.)
5. Excepting the Sacrament of Penance, neither orthodox belief nor moral worthiness is necessary for the validity of the Sacrament, on the part of the recipient. (Sent. communis.)
6. For the validity of the Sacraments in the case of adult recipients the intention of recieving the Sacrament is necessary. (Sent. certa.)
7. In the case of adult recipients moral worthiness is necessary for the worthy or fruitful reception of the Sacraments. (De fide.)
8. The Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation and Consecration, when they are recieved validly but unworthily, revive after the removal of the moral indisposition, that is, the sacramental grace is conferred subsequently. (Sent. communis.)
9. The Old Testament Sacraments wrought, ex opere operato, not grace, but merely an external lawful purity. (Sent. certa.)
10. Baptism is a true Sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ. (De fide.)
11. The materia remota of the Sacrament of Baptism is true and natural water. (De fide.)
12. The materia proxima of the Sacrament of Baptism is the ablution, by physical contact, of the body with water. (Sent. certa.)
13. The form of Baptism consists in the words of the minister which accompany it and more closely determine it.
14. Baptism confers the grace of justification. (De fide.)
15. Baptism effects the remission of all punishments of sin, both the eternal and the temporal. (De fide.)
16. Eve if it be unworthily recieved, valid Baptism imprints on the soul of the recipient an indelible spiritual mark, the Baptismal Character, and for this reason, the Sacrament cannot be repeated. (De fide.)
17. Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary for all men without exception, for salvation. (De fide.)
18. In case of emergency Baptism by water can be replaced by Baptism of desire or Baptism by blood. (Sent. fidei. prox)
19. Baptism can be validily administered by anyone. (De fide.)
20. Baptism can be recieved by any person in the wayfaring state who is not already baptised. (De fide.)
21. The Baptism of young children is valid and licit. (De fide.)
22. Confirmation is a true Sacrament properly so-called. (De fide.)
23. The form of Confirmation consists in the words which the minister speaks when he imposes his hands on the recipient and anoints his forehead. (Sent. communis.)
24. As a Sacrament of the living, Confirmation effects (per se) an increase of Sanctifying Grace. (Sent. certa.)
25. The specific operation of Confirmation is the perfection of Baptismal Grace. (Sent. communis.)
26. Confirmation imprints on the soul an indelible spiritual mark, and for this reason, cannot be repeated. (De fide.)
27. A baptised person can achieve eternal salvation even without Confirmation. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
28. The ordinary minister of Confirmation is the Bishop alone. (De fide.)
29. The extraordinary minister of Confirmation is a priest on whom this full power is conferred by the common law or by a special apostolic indult. (Sent. certa.)
30. Confirmation can be recieved by any baptised person who is not already confirmated. (Sent. certa.)

 

[Dan-Man916]

1. The repitition of Confirmation is invalid and grievously sinful.
2. The Body and Blood of Jesus Christ are truly, really and substantially present in the Eucharist. (De fide.)
3. Christ becomes present in the Sacrament of the Altar by the transformation of the whole substance of the bread into His Body and the whole substance of the wine into His Blood. (De fide.)
4. The Accidents of bread and wine continue after the change of the substance. (De fide.)
5. The Sacramental Accidents retain their physical reality after the change of the substance. (Sent. certa.)
6. The Sacramental Accidents continue without a subject in which to inhere. (Sent. certa.)
7. The Body and the Blood of Christ together with His Soul and HIs Divinity and therefore the Whole Christ are truly present in the Eucharist (De fide.) Eucharist literally means Thanksgiving.
8. The Whole Christ is present under each of the two Species. (De fide.)
9. When either consecrated species is divided the Whole Christ is present in each part of the species. (De fide.)
10. After the Consecration has been completed the Body and Blood are permanently present in the Eucharist. (De fide.)
11. The Worship of Adoration (latria) must be given to Christ present in the Eucharist. (De fide.)
12. The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is a mystery of Faith. (Sent. certa.)
13. The Eucharist is a true Sacrament instituted by Christ. (De fide.)
14. The matter for the consummation of the Eucharist is bread and wine. (De fide.)
15. The form of the Eucharist consists in Christ’s Words of institution, uttered at the Consecration. (Sent. certa.)
16. The Chief fruit of the Eucharist is an intrinsic union of the recipient with Christ. (Sent. certa.)
17. The Eucharist, as food for the soul, preserves and increases the supernatural life of the soul. (Sent. certa. )
18. The Eucharist is a pledge of heavenly bliss and of the future resurrection of the body. (Sent. certa.)
19. For children before the age of reason the reception of the Eucharist is not necessary for salvation. (De fide.)
20. For adults the reception of the Eucharist is necessary for salvation with the necessity of precept (necessitate praecepti). (Sent. certa.)
21. Communion under two forms is not necessary for any individual member of the Faithful, either by reason of Divine precept or as a means of salvation. (De fide.)
22. The power of consecration resides in a validly consecrated priest only. (De fide.)
23. The ordinary minister of the Eucharist is the priest; the extraordinary minister is the deacon (with permission of the local Ordinary or of the parish priest for some weighty reason). CIC 845
24. The Sacrament of the Eucharist can be validly recieved by every baptised person in the wayfaring state, including young children. (De fide.) D 933
25. For the worthy reception of the Eucharist the state of grace as well as the proper and pious disposition are necessary. (De fide as regards the state of grace.)
26. The Holy Mass is a true and proper Sacrifice. (De fide.) Sacrifice takes place on an Altar only.
27. In the Sacrifice of the Mass, Christ’s Sacrifice on the Cross is made present, its memory is celebrated, and its saving power is applied. (De fide.)
28. In the Sacrifice of the Mass and in the Sacrifice of the Cross the Sacrificial Gift and the Primary Sancrificing Priest are identical; only the nature and mode of the offering are different. (De fide.)
29. The essential Sacrificial Action consists in the Transsubstantiation alone. (Sent. communis.)
30. The Sacrifice of the Mass is not merely a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving, but also a sacrifice of expiation and impetration. (De fide.)

 

[Dan-Man916]

1. The Church has recieved from Christ the power of remitting sins committed after Baptism. (De fide.)
2. By the Church’s Absolution sins are truly and immediately remitted. (De fide.)
3. The Church’s power to forgive sins extends to all sin without exception. (De fide.)
4. The exercise of the Church’s power to forgive sins is a judicial act. (De fide.)
5. The forgiveness of sins which takes place in the Tribunal of Penance is a true and proper Sacrament, which is distinct from the Sacrament of Baptism. (De fide.)
6. Perfect contrition bestows the grace of justification on the mortal sinner even before the actual reception of the Sacrament of Penance. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
7. Extra-sacramental justification is effected by perfect sorrow only when it is associated with the desire for the Sacrament (votum sacramenti). (De fide.)
8. Contrition springing from the motive of fear is a morally good and supernatural act. (De fide.)
9. Imperfect contrition suffices for the forgiveness of sins in the Sacrament of Penance. (Sent. communis.)
10. The Sacramental confession of sins is ordained by God and is necessary for salvation. (De fide.)
11. By virtue of Divine ordinance all grievous sins(mortal, serious) according to kind and number, as well as those cirumstances which alter their nature, are subject to the obligation of confession. (De fide.)
12. The confession of venial sins is not necessary but is permitted and is useful. (De fide.)
13. Those sins which are already forgiven directly by the Church’s Power of the Keys are a sufficient object of confession. (Sent. certa.) CIC 902.
14. All temporal punishments for sin are not always remitted by God with the guilt of sin and the eternal punishment. (De fide.)
15. The priest has the right and the duty, according to the nature of the sins and the ability of the penitent, to impose salutary and appropriate works of satisfaction. (De fide.)
16. Extra-sacramental penitential works, such as the performance of voluntary penitential practices and the patient bearing of trials sent by God, possess satisfactory value. (De fide.)
17. The form of the Sacrament of Penance consists in the words of Absolution. (De fide.) D896 Cf. 699
18. Absolution, in association with the acts of the penitent, effects the forgiveness of sins. (De fide.)
19. The principal effect of the Sacrament of Penance is the reconciliation of the sinner with God. (De fide.)
20. The merits due to good works performed in the state of grace which have been rendered null by grievous sins, that is, have been made inefficacious, revive. (Sent. communis.)
21. The Sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation to those who, after Baptism, fall into grievous sin. (De fide.)
22. The sole possessors of the Church’s Power of Absolution are the bishops and priests. (De fide.)
23. Absolution given by deacons, clerics of lower rank, and laymen is not Sacramental Absolution. (De fide.)
24. The Sacrament of Penance can be recieved by any baptised person, who, after Baptism, has commited a grievous or venial sin. (De fide.) D911, 917
25. The Church possesses the power to grant Indulgences. (De fide.)
26. The source of Indulgences is the Church’s treasury of satisfaction which consists of superabundant satisfactions of Christ and of the Saints. (Sent. certa.)
27. The use of INdulgences is useful and salutary to the Faithful. (De fide.) D989,998
28. Extreme Unction is a true and proper Sacrament instituted by Christ. (De fide.)
29. The remote matter of Extreme Unction is oil. (De fide.)
30. The form consists in the prayer of the priest for the sick person which accompanies the anointing. (De fide.)

 

[Dan-Man916]

1. Extreme Unction gives the sick person sanctifying grace in order to arouse and strengthen him. (De fide.)
2. Extreme Unction effects the remission of grievous sins still remaining and of venial sins. (De fide.)
3. Extreme Unction sometimes effects the restoration of bodily health, if this be of spiritual advantage. (De fide.) D909
4. Extreme Unction is not of itself (per se) necessary for salvation. (Sent. certa.) CIC 944.
5. Only bishops and priests can validly administer Extreme Unction. (De fide.)
6. Extreme Unction can be recieved only by the Faithful who are seriously ill. (De fide.) D910
7. Holy Order is a true and proper Sacrament which was instituted by Christ. (De fide.)
8. The four Minor Orders and the Subdiaconate are not Sacraments but merely Sacramentals. (Sent. Communior.)
9. The consecration of priests is a Sacrament. (De fide.)
10. The consecration of a Bishop is a Sacrament. (Sent. certa.)
11. Bishops are superior to priests. (De fide.)
12. The Order of Diaconate is a Sacrament. (Sent. certa.)
13. The matter of the Orders of Diaconate, Priesthood, and Episcopate is the imposition of hands alone. (Sent. fidei proxima).
14. The handing over (traditio) of the instruments is not necessary for the validity of the consecration of Deacons, Priests, and Bishops. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
15. The form of the Order of Deacon, Priest, and Bishop consists solely in the words which more closely determine the imposition of the hands. (Sent. fidei proxima.)
16. The Sacrament of Order confers sanctifying grace on the recipient. (De fide.) Cf. D843a, 959,964.
17. The Sacrament of Order imprints a character on the recipient. (De fide.)
18. The Sacrament of Order confers a permanent spiritual power on the recipient. (De fide.) Cf. D960 et seq.
19. The ordinary dispenser of all grades of Order, both the sacramental and the non-sacramental, is the validly consecrated bishop alone. (De fide.)
20. The extraordinary dispenser of the four Minor Orders and of the Order of the Subdiaconate is the presbyter. (Sent. certa.)
21. The Sacrament of Order can be validly recieved by a baptised person of the male sex only. (Sent. certa.) CIC 968, Par. 1.
22. Marriage was not instituted by Man, but by God. (Sent. certa.) D 2225.
23. Marriage is a true and proper Sacrament instituted by God. (De fide.)
24. The primary purpose of Marriage is the generation and bringing-up of offspring. The secondary purpose is mutual help and the morally regulated satisfaction of the sex urge. (Sent. certa.) CIC 1013, Par. 1.
25. The essential properties of Marriage are unity (monogamy) and indissolubility. (Sent. certa.) CIC 1013, Par. 2.
26. Every valid contract of Marriage between Christians is of itself a sacrament. (Sent. certa.)
27. From the sacramental contract of marriage emerges the Bond of Marriage, which binds both marriage partners to a lifelong indivisible community of life. (De fide.)
28. The Sacrament of Matrimony bestows Sanctifying Grace on the contracting parties. (De fide.)
29. The contracting parties in Matrimony minister the Sacrament each to the other. (Sent. certa.)
30. The Church possesses the sole and exclusive right to make laws and administer justice in the matrimonial affairs of baptised persons, in so far as these affect the Sacrament. (Sent. certa.) Cf. CIC 1016, 1960.
31. In the present order of salvation death is a punishment for sin. (De fide.)
32. All human beings subject to original sin are subject to the law of death. (De fide.) D789
33. With death the possibility of merit or demerit or conversion ceases. (Sent. certa.)
34. Immediately after death the particular judgment takes place, in which, by a Divine Sentence of Judgment, the eternal fate of the deceased person is decided. (Sent. fidei proxima.)

 

[Dan-Man916]

1. The souls of the just which in the moment of death are free from all guilt of sin and punishment for sin, enter into Heaven. (De fide.)
2. In addition to the essential bliss of Heaven which springs from the immediate Vision of God, there is also an accidental blessedness, which proceeds from the natural knowledge and love of created things. (Sent. communis.)
3. The bliss of heaven lasts for all eternity. (De fide. )
4. The degree of perfection of the beatific vision granted to the just is proportioned to each one’s merits. (De fide.)
5. The souls of those who die in the condition of personal grievous sin enter Hell. (De fide. )
6. The punishment of Hell lasts for all eternity. (De fide.)
7. The punishment of the damned is proportioned to each one’s guilt. (Sent. communis.)
8. The souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory. (De fide.)
9. The purifying fire will not continue after the General Judgment. (Sent. communis.)
10. At the end of the world Christ will come again in glory to pronounce judgment. (De fide.)
11. The time of Jesus’ second coming is unknown to men. (Sent. certa.)
12. All the dead will rise again on the last day with their bodies. (De fide.)
13. The bodies of the just will be re-modelled and transfigured to the pattern of the risen Christ. (Sent. certa.)
14. The bodies of the godless will rise again in incorruption and immortality, but they will not be transfigured. (Sent. certa.)
15. Christ, on His second coming, will judge all men. (De fide. )
16. The present world will be destroyed on the Last Day. (Sent. certa.)
17. The present world will be restored on the Last Day. (Sent. certa.)

 

[Dan-Man916]

There you go. Chew on those for a while. The text gives an explanation of each one.

HAPPY STUDYING

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Great posts Dan-Man, great posts.

 

[Contarini]

Then why doesn’t the same principle apply to dogmas defined later? If it’s the same Church, then it has the same authority to make definitive, binding statements re: the Faith as it did in the 4th and 5th centuries, does it not?

That’s a completely different issue from that raised by the OP. Please don’t engage in bait-and-switch. It’s tiring and pointless.

I have not said anything about whether the developments that have taken place to produce modern Catholicism are legitimate or illegitimate. I have simply pointed out that these developments have taken place, and just as we cannot claim against JWs that the first three centuries possessed a full-fledged Trinitarian faith as we know it today, so Catholics cannot claim against Protestants that the first 1500 years were “Catholic” in a sense identical to that implied by the current dogmas, polity, worship, and moral teaching of the Roman Communion.

As to your point: the doctrinal definitions of the fourth and fifth centuries certainly did not proceed via the cut-and-dried methods advocated by modern conservative Catholics.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

The objection to the term “homoousios” was that it had previously been used by pagan philosophers, and its use by the heretic Paul of Samosata was condemned because of his misapplication of the principle in monarchianist terms.

Exactly. But there was no orthodox tradition of using the term to juxtapose to these pagan and heretical uses.

Even before the Council, Arius was condemned by as having introduced an innovation that was not part of the Faith.

Of course that is what his opponents claimed, and I agree with them. But the matter was not self-evident, and Athanasius and his allies were also accused (with some justice) of “innovation.”

Whether or not the technical term “homoousios” was used, the belief that God is one God in three Persons is recorded as having been expressly taught as early as the first century.

Not “expressly,” no. Not unless you have documents available to you that most people have not seen.

In a similar fashion, just because the technical term “transubstantiation” was used by alchemists and doesn’t appear in early writings doesn’t mean that the Church believed that the Eucharist was something other than Christ made really, truly, and substantially present under the appearance of bread and wine.

I agree that there’s very little difference between the “metabolic” view of the Eucharist found in fourth century writers such as Ambrose and Cyril of Jerusalem and the later medieval view defined technically as “transubstantiation.” But “very little” is not quite the same as “none,” and more to the point this metabolic theory is not explicitly found before the fourth century and was not the only one used in the fourth century.

You’re confusing the technical definition of an article of faith with the establishment of something as an article of faith.

No, I’m not. You’re using this very fine distinction in order to support a wooden theory of doctrinal development that bears no resemblance to anything known to serious historians.

The Church establishes nothing new when a dogma is proclaimed.

That is what your interpretation of Catholicism requires you to believe. My fundamentalist Protestant friends are also required by their interpretation of Christianity to believe things that are patently irrational.

A dogma is simply a more complete definition of something that has been part of the faith since the Apostles.

You are welcome to keep telling yourself that, if you don’t care about historical truth.

Because ancient people didn’t understand nuclear fusion, does that mean that the sun was actually a flaming ball of metal until 1920, when the mechanism by which it produces light was described by Sir Arthur Eddington?

Of course not. But it does mean that people didn’t know about nuclear fusion until they discovered it. They didn’t “really know about it” in some ineffable way that hasn’t left any trace in the historical evidence.

Edwin

 

[Radical]

Because I’m a good sport, i’ll give you the listing. You can go read whichever topic tickles your fancy.

Well thanks for your efforts. Ott’s list isn’t exactly what I asked for….I wanted a list of distinctly Catholic beliefs and many of the items on the list are not distinctly RC. That being said, your efforts have OneTrueCathApos absolutely gushing with approval, and so I will be more than happy to work from it. First, I will start by selecting a manageable number of distinctly RC beliefs from the list….and what could be more RC than Mary? From there, one then asks: With respect to beliefs about Mary, according to the scriptural and historical evidence, was the Church of the first two generations more RC or more Protestant?

You might wonder why I am limiting the question to the first two generations. Two reasons, OneTrueCathApos was very clear that the Church was Catholic in belief from the outset. Second, I had said that part of what OneTrueCathApos was really claiming was:

You, as a Protestant, must come to a realization that for the first 1500 years of Christianity, they were Catholic in belief. (In this regard, you Protestants must grant the RC the right to categorize any variation between a very early belief and a current belief as merely a development as opposed to a man-made innovation. You must further grant that the development was divinely inspired on the basis that the RCC is the church that Christ established and that he promised to keep its doctrines pure. Finally, you must disregard the circularity that exists at this point.)

You made it clear that I was in error on this point. Therefore, according to the two of you these Marian doctrines would have existed within the first two generations in such a fashion that any subsequent statements with respect to these doctrines could only be seen as mere developments.

Here then are the beliefs under consideration:

A. Mary’s freedom from any sin:

1. Mary was concieved without stain of Original sin. (De fide.)
2. From her conception Mary was free from all motions of concupiscence. (Sent. communis.)
3. In consequence of a Special Privilege of Grace from God, Mary was free from every personal sin during her whole life. (Sent. fidei proxima.) She was immune from all sin mortal and venial.

B. Mary’s perpetual virginity:

1. Mary was a Virgin before, during and after the Birth of Jesus Christ.
2. Mary bore her Son without any violation of her virginal integrity. (De fide on the ground of the general promulgation of doctrine.) Christ was born from the side of Mary, much like Eve was made from the Side of Adam.
3. Also after the Birth of Jesus Mary remained a Virgin. (De fide.)

C. Mary’s Bodily Assumption:

1. Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven. (De fide.)

D. Mary’s continued role in salvation:

1. Since Mary’s Assumption into Heaven no grace is conferred on man without her actual intercessory co-operation. (Sent. pia et probabilis.)
2. Mary is the Co-Redemptrix
3. Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces by her intercession in Heaven. (Mediatio in speciali.)

.

 

[Radical]

Now, you might recall that I actually asked for three things. First I wanted a list of beliefs. Second, I wanted the scriptural evidence that OneTrueCathApos had for his assertion. Third, I wanted the historical evidence that OneTrueCathApos had for his assertion. With regard to the scriptural evidence that OneTrueCathApos claimed to have proving his assertion, I had said that what OneTrueCathApos was really claiming was:

….as well as Scripture, that Christ did in fact establish the Catholic faith? (In this regard, because Christ did in fact establish the RCC and its infallible teaching authority, you Protestants must grant the RCC the right to explain the correct interpretation of any key passage so as to verify its authenticity and authority. Again, you must disregard any self-authentication and circularity that exists at this point.)

Again, you assured me that I was wrong on this point and so I can only expect that neither of you will ask me to merely accept the RC interpretation of any key passage in scripture. As such, we only need to consider those passages of scripture that clearly and expressly teach the distinctly RC beliefs about Mary. You were good enough to take a stab at the first list re beliefs, so I will take a stab at the next two re: evidence. Here, broken down by category are the passages of scripture that clearly and expressly teach the distinctly RC beliefs about Mary:

A. Mary’s freedom from any sin:

No such passages exist.

B. Mary’s perpetual virginity:

No such passages exist.

C. Mary’s Bodily Assumption:

No such passages exist.

D. Mary’s continued role in salvation:

No such passages exist.

(If you think I have missed something in this list, kindly advise me.)

That was easy. Moving on to the historical evidence, I had said that what OneTrueCathApos was really saying was:

Do you ever once realize because this is so in which we have the historical evidence…. (In this regard, you Protestants must grant the RC the right to pick and choose which particular writings from the ECFs should be recognized as reflective of the early church’s belief and which should be recognized as merely the rogue opinion of an ECF. Further, since the RCC is the church that Christ established and since he promised to keep its doctrines pure, any problematic writing of any ECF that cannot be dismissed as a rogue opinion must be interpreted in a fashion that aligns it with modern RC teaching. As SyCarl would likely point out, you must disregard any double standard that is in play at this point.)

You assured me I was wrong and so I can only expect that neither of you will ask me to merely accept the RC interpretation of any ECF’s work and that neither of you will ask me to look only at certain ECFs. With respect to the Church’s second generation, I doubt this expectation is even relevant, but who knows, maybe you or OneTrueCathApos would like to offer some historical evidence form some later generation(s). Here, broken down by category are the passages from the first generation of ECFs (known as the Apostolic Fathers) that clearly and expressly teach the distinctly RC beliefs about Mary:

A. Mary’s freedom from any sin:

No such passages exist.

B. Mary’s perpetual virginity:

No such passages exist.

C. Mary’s Bodily Assumption:

No such passages exist.

D. Mary’s continued role in salvation:

No such passages exist.

(If you think I have missed something in this list, kindly advise me.)

So far, it seems, with regard to the distinctly RC beliefs about Mary, that the evidence in no way establishes that the Church in its very earliest stages was RC. Admittedly, this is only one area of doctrine, but it is so significant to RC belief that one can only wonder if the earliest Church could be properly called RC if it didn’t hold these beliefs about Mary…and, of course, it hasn’t been established on any evidence that the earliest church held to any of the other distinctly RC beliefs.

The thing is, Protestants historians and theologians are not dummies. Neither are the RC historians and theologians. Further, a good number of current RC historians will readily admit that the Church did not, at the start, hold to many of the distinctly RC beliefs. That a) intelligent and informed people hold opposing views on this matter and that b) even certain RC historians admit that the Church did not, at the start, hold to many of the distinctly RC beliefs should c) tell everyone that the type of blustering seen in the OP is ill-informed and unwarranted and very over-reaching.

 

[Dan-Man916]

Radical ,

First off, you really need to get the text and study it if you are truly interested in the teachings of the Church.
Secondly, you make an initial false premise that renders the rest of your argument invalid. It is this:

You made it clear that I was in error on this point. Therefore, according to the two of you these Marian doctrines would have existed within the first two generations in such a fashion that any subsequent statements with respect to these doctrines could only be seen as mere developments.

This premise assumes that every single doctrine must be written down somewhere within the first 2 generations in order for it to be held valid by your judgement.
This is a false premise for several reasons.
Nowhere is it written anywhere that the Apostles or their successors meant to write everything down.
The Jewish Tradition never wrote anything down until quite later. As a historian, you would know that the critical method of OT studies has determined that much of the Penteteuch, especially Deuteronomy, was written in final form in the 6th century (P source). Other parts of the Penteteuch have their sources from from the J period as well as the E period. Traditions aren’t written down until there is a need to, later on.
Therefore; That some Traditions were written in later times only reflects what was believed everywhere and by everyone in the beginning. Since the Assyrian Church of the East , Oriental Orthodox, and Eastern Orthodox share the same essential Marian beliefs with us, these teachings are true because they exhibit catholicity (universalness).

As a historian, I would have expected you to already know this. Yet your false premise indicates you don’t.

Nice try. No dice.

BTW, knocking all of this down is just too easy. You really need to try harder.

 

[Radical]

Therefore; That some Traditions were written in later times only reflects what was believed everywhere and by everyone in the beginning.

It seems that you are complaining about a speck in my eye as you labour with a log in your own. So if a ECF put something in writing in the 4th century, it means that the thing was “believed everywhere and by everyone in the beginning.” What a grand assumption! It is possible that the thing was believed from the very beginning and just then reduced to writing, but it is just a possibility. No more!

Since the Assyrian Church of the East , Oriental Orthodox, and Eastern Orthodox share the same essential Marian beliefs with us, these teachings are true because they exhibit catholicity (universalness).

Again some grand assumptions are at work here. If, for example, the RCC and the EO split in the 11th century why would that mean that any shared belief must have already existed in the 1st or 2nd century? It obviously doesn’t. Second, if for example, the RCC and the EO split in the 2nd century (which of course didn’t happen) why would that mean that an exchange of beliefs could not subsequently occur so that they would possess a shared belief that arose after the split?

BTW, knocking all of this down is just too easy. You really need to try harder.

I am curious, what colour is the sky in your imaginary world?

 

[Radical]

Dan, allow me to add something…as you seem to be misreading me.

This premise assumes that every single doctrine must be written down somewhere within the first 2 generations in order for it to be held valid by your judgement.

I never made such a statement. I said the doctrine must exist, not that it must have been written down. Please note, that in conclusion I had said (with respect to the lack of clear evidence) that: “the evidence in no way establishes that the Church in its very earliest stages was RC.” Kindly also note that I did not declare that the evidence proved that the Church in its very earliest stages could not have believed in the RC Marian doctrines. Again, the situation is that intelligent informed historians hold opposing views regarding these matters. You and the OPster are over-reaching in your declarations.