The first Catholic women priests were ordained today?

[Hilde89]

Maybe I can just ordain myself lol.

 

[beckers]

Father Mark put this in his bulletin.

My Dear People,
Roman Catholic Womenpriests Is A Lie

If we had to summarize the present age, it would be described as one of “entitlement”. Simply put…“I am owed.” Unlike our forefathers who struggled to provide the basic necessities for their families in an environment of faith and trust in Almighty God, this age places pleasures and power before everything else. When Eve was seduced in the Garden, she was given the BIG LIE, “you can have it all, right now”. “You can become God, and possess it all, including have His knowledge,” the Devil promised Eve. Once seduced, she convinces Adam of the lie as well, and so it goes. Today, this BIG LIE has never been so alive as it presently is. We must have it all right now, without pain or sacrifice, because “I am owed.” There are no longer boundaries of reason, simply a seeking and a gaining what is owed me.

The Schismatic Group, Roman Catholic Womenpriests,
Excommunicate Themselves With Ordination

The recent SCHISM with the “ordination” of women in the St. Louis Archdiocese, is the penultimate LIE of “I am owed.” The apostates, who refer to themselves as Catholics, have been completely seduced by Eve’s deception…“I am owed.” Roman Catholic Womenpriests**, as they call themselves, are the epitome of the lie.** Unlike the hundreds of holy women saints, who submitted themselves to God’s Divine Will, these women image “self-will.” **Like Lucifer, they boldly cry out publicly, “we will not obey our God.” **And so the sin is perpetuated in the name of “I am owed.” We have much to atone for this present age. ONLY by God’s Divine Mercy and Forgiveness will we emerge from this “present darkness.” Stand in contradiction to the BIG LIE. Submit yourselves and your families in humility to Jesus’ Most Sacred Heart. Ask Our Lady to cover you with Her Holy Mantle. Trust and believe in the power of God’s Divine Love.

Entrusting you to the care of Our Lady,

Fr. Mark

Wow that is an awesome piece. Be thankful that you have a vocal priest. your parish is truly blessed!

 

[johnnykins]

It’s time that the Catholic Church ordained women. I watched the Bishops at their recent gathering, very able men it seems, but all of them were male, overwhelmingly old and white.

 We live in a new era. The old gender thing is passe. Moreover, there is a desperate shortage of priests.  

  Mainline Protestant groups - Methodist, Episcopal, Lutheran, Congregational, Presbyterian, etc - have ordained women for years, and there are even many women bishops among Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans and other groups that have bishops. I know at least two former nuns who became Protestant ministers.

It’s certainly a matter of concern and even puzzlement to most modern western people - and many others.

However, what one must keep in mind is that the Catholic concept of a priest is different from the protestant concept. There is nothing in Catholicism that holds a woman cannot preach outside Mass, teach, serve or participate fully in Gods salvific plan. The Catholic Church has named several women as Doctors of the Church for their teaching and witness to the Catholic faith.

However, the Church teaches, that as a part of God’s Plan - not the “Church’s” Plan - there is something fundamental and in the very nature of our sexuality that makes women unable to be a priest. Just like there is something in our sexuality that makes men unable to be mothers or women to be fathers - it is fundamental to our being as creatures in the “image and likeness of God.” Do many people reject the Church on this matter - certainly. Is the Church clear that this is clear doctrine - certainly. If one believes that the Church - as far as doctrine is concerned - is infallible, one must accept this teaching. The Church cannot change infallible teaching. I believe the Church through JPII has taken this matter to that level.

I am left to reconcile my own modern prejudices within that context. I do so by acknowledging that men and women are BOTH in the image and likeness of God - but are not identical. Meaning God is somehow imaged as man and woman. Yet, like the Trinity - three person in one God each person with its own particular manifestation - there is only one proper manifestation of the priest - the male sex. Why? I don’t know. Why are only women mothers? Or men fathers? It is like parenthood, however, something fundamental to our sex.

That leaves me to contemplate it. Contemplate the meaning of it. contemplate the nature of God, humanity, sexuality, etc.

I keep in mind that under Catholic doctrine the only perfect creature is Mary - a woman. The scandal, and history in general, certainly point out that priests are not perfect in any way. So why did God set it up this way? I don’t know - but I know God looked at creation and said it was good. Maybe it’s simply to pint out that different is not better or worse. I like to think that our sexuality is derived from making us an icon of God - that the Father, Mother and Child are an icon of the Trinity - 3 persons and yet one in the procreative unity. A limited icon, surely, but one I think is there.

Perhaps in the priesthood this imaging of the man as another Christ perhaps serves as an icon of Jesus - fully divine and fully human hypostatically joined not unlike (certainly not the same, but in a sense similar) the priest on the altar and the congregation joined in the Eucharistic worship.

Ok - a few musings of a fool.

 

[Roy5]

I guess I simply have to say that tradition plays more of a role in Catholicism than I like. The church has changed many things over the years. Once priests were permitted to marry, for example. But sadly that changed, and certainly a major reason there is such a clergy shortage is the requirement of celibacy, a rather silly regulation. Why should normal, honorable men be denied the love, the intimacy, and the joys of family life that marriage permits. It also would make them (in general) better pastors, knowing the challenges most lay people face.

   In my childhood days I recall how Catholics could not eat meat on Friday, could not even enter a Protestant church, were warned against joining the YMCA, and so much else born of prejudice. Thank God for John XXIII and Vatican II.

   To succeed in the future, much else has to change within Catholicism, including marriage of clergy, ordination of women, etc. Benedict XVI, before he became Pope, took the lead in silencing several outstanding Catholic theologians. This fear of 'heresy' is out of keeping with the modern, inquiring mind. It's what led to burnings at the stake, stretching on the rack, and all sorts of persecution of Hussites, Lollards, Waldensians and better-known Protestants and other non-Catholics years ago. Nothing to be proud of. True religion need not fear sincere difference of opinion. Independent thinking must be permitted. If Catholicism is the 'one, true church' God will make sure that it survives. 

   I don't agree with Chris Hitchens on much in his new book, "God is Not Great'. But he is right in his claim that religion has been a poison too often in history.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

I guess I simply have to say that tradition plays more of a role in Catholicism than I like. The church has changed many things over the years. Once priests were permitted to marry, for example. But sadly that changed, and certainly a major reason there is such a clergy shortage is the requirement of celibacy, a rather silly regulation. Why should normal, honorable men be denied the love, the intimacy, and the joys of family life that marriage permits. It also would make them (in general) better pastors, knowing the challenges most lay people face.

Part of it is that St. Paul states that the vocation of celibacy is a greater vocation call than marriage.

To succeed in the future, much else has to change within Catholicism, including marriage of clergy, ordination of women, etc. Benedict XVI, before he became Pope, took the lead in silencing several outstanding Catholic theologians. This fear of ‘heresy’ is out of keeping with the modern, inquiring mind. It’s what led to burnings at the stake, stretching on the rack, and all sorts of persecution of Hussites, Lollards, Waldensians and better-known Protestants and other non-Catholics years ago. Nothing to be proud of. True religion need not fear sincere difference of opinion. Independent thinking must be permitted. If Catholicism is the ‘one, true church’ God will make sure that it survives.

Like who?
And a True Religion constantly preaches the truth and makes sure that it’s members are not teaching to the contrary. If Papa Benny “silenced” some theologians, there was a good reason for it. To allow theologians to preach contrary to the Truth would lead members of the Church from the Truth and into dissent, rebellion and lies.

 

[johnq]

Wow that is an awesome piece. Be thankful that you have a vocal priest. your parish is truly blessed!

Yes, he is great.

BTW the headlines were added by me.

 

[beckers]

I guess I simply have to say that tradition plays more of a role in Catholicism than I like. The church has changed many things over the years. Once priests were permitted to marry, for example. But sadly that changed, and certainly a major reason there is such a clergy shortage is the requirement of celibacy, a rather silly regulation. Why should normal, honorable men be denied the love, the intimacy, and the joys of family life that marriage permits. It also would make them (in general) better pastors, knowing the challenges most lay people face.

I for one totally support the church on this one.
A.) Celibacy is a higher calling.
B.) It’s unfair to the wife, husband and children that their vows and family are now competing with the churches demand of being a priest. Ask the wives of protestant ministers. Lots of them say they have issues balancing the church vs family. Is that fair to anyone?
C.) I look around and see this protestant mega-churches that are run by a father and then passed down to their kids. Religion has become the family business and it makes me sick.
D.) Becoming a priest is not something that happens overnight. I have numerous friends who have applied to the seminaries and been rejected because the church felt they weren’t ready to enter. The church wants to make sure the men are not running from anything (family, money, desperation etc). And my friends that are in the seminary have to get Master in theology. Depending on their previous school studies this can be extra years of study.

 

[johnnykins]

I guess I simply have to say that tradition plays more of a role in Catholicism than I like.

A lot of people feel that way.

The church has changed many things over the years. Once priests were permitted to marry, for example.

Actually they still are permitted to marry - even in the Roman Rite. Celibacy is simply a discipline.

But sadly that changed, and certainly a major reason there is such a clergy shortage is the requirement of celibacy, a rather silly regulation.

Perhaps. As a discipline it is a matter of prudence - not faith. The Hierarchy has determined that as a matter of discipline it is prudent to have the rule in the Latin Church with few exceptions. Certainly we can disagree with a prudential judgment. I note that “married priests” is a totally different issue from women priests - which the Church says is a matter of doctrine not discipline. That is a woman by God’s own design CANNOT be a priest.

Why should normal, honorable men be denied the love, the intimacy, and the joys of family life that marriage permits.

No one makes anyone become a priest. They know the rules and CHOOSE to accept them in priesthood. The Church denies no one marriage - the priest chooses celibacy.

It also would make them (in general) better pastors, knowing the challenges most lay people face.

This gets back to prudence. Honest people can disagree about that.

However, I note again - married priests and women priests are two completely different matters as far as the Church is concerned,

In my childhood days I recall how Catholics could not eat meat on Friday, could not even enter a Protestant church, were warned against joining the YMCA, and so much else born of prejudice.

Not sure how not eating meat has anything to do with prejudice. It was a Rule - and the Church can change rules. The other matters were rule, too - NOT DOCTRINE. Again, the application of rules is a matter of prudence - judgment.

Thank God for John XXIII and Vatican II.

I agree though many would say some of the judgments made since VII have been very poor. Again, reasonable people can disagree about rules and prudential judgments.

To succeed in the future, much else has to change within Catholicism, including marriage of clergy, ordination of women, etc.

A bold statement, and one that misapprehends just what the Church is. The Church does not “succeed” except that it is faithful to God. If the Church were to ordain women in contravention of God’s Plan to comply with certain modern ideas would be a disaster.

Benedict XVI, before he became Pope, took the lead in silencing several outstanding Catholic theologians. This fear of ‘heresy’ is out of keeping with the modern, inquiring mind. It’s what led to burnings at the stake, stretching on the rack, and all sorts of persecution of Hussites, Lollards, Waldensians and better-known Protestants and other non-Catholics years ago.

Telling someone they are wrong and not allowed to preach as a catholic priest when they distort the faith is hardly the same as the persecutions" you mention. Indeed, presumably as then cardinal Ratzinger had a duty to silence these theologians. those theologians could certainly continue to preach - BUT NOT REPRESENTING THEMSELVES AS TEACHING THE FAITH. It seems to me a religion has the right to define what it believes and not let others claim to be members of that faith with authority to teach something erroneous.

Nothing to be proud of.

any student of history knows that Catholics, like protestant have a sordid history. It’s just in this instatnce your argument is a non-sequitur.

True religion need not fear sincere difference of opinion. Independent thinking must be permitted.

But the Church must teach what it holds to be the Truth - and not let soemone distort it. Certainly these theologians continue to teach - it’s just the faithful now know that what they taught was not the faith… No one has been tortured, etc. Are you really saying the Church must allow anyone to say anything and represent it as the faith simply because they are a theologian? If so, why not let protestants tell catholics what catholics believe?

If Catholicism is the ‘one, true church’ God will make sure that it survives.

agreed. And given the evil and venality of catholics throughout the 2000 years of its history - it must be God’s Church or it would have folded years ago.

I don’t agree with Chris Hitchens on much in his new book, "God is Not Great’. But he is right in his claim that religion has been a poison too often in history.

In many cases that’s correct- though I would add the gloss - “the misuse of religion” not “religion” itself.

 

[Roy5]

A few follow-up rejoinders and comments.

1. I can't think of a higher-calling than to be a dedicated and loving husband and father. Celibacy should be a choice as it is among Protestant clergy.

2. Unfair to wives? Hm! The vast majority of ministers marry after they have chosen to become pastors. Their wives, more often than not, are proud to become ministers' wives. In most cases they participate in the vocation with their husbands - happily. True, there are exceptions, of course. Clergy are human and not all marriages are made in heaven. But that's a pretty weak argument against married priests.

 3. I also think that marriage of clergy would cut down on sex scandals among the clergy. Many fully normal people need an outlet for their powerful God-given desire for sexual intimacy. A simple reality that it's silly to deny. Since so many pedophiles have been homosexual, there would still likely be some scandals -sadly.

4. I agree. The Father to Son transition in many mega-churches is bad. Too many of those churches become minister-centered. The Catholic Church has fortunately moved away from the time when priests were kings of the hill and ruled as such. But there is further to go.

5. Protestant ministers in most denominations, like priests, must also finish at least three years of seminary after graduation from college. There are exceptions, as with some Baptists, Pentecostals, etc., where the main emphasis is upon the 'call'. People like Al Sharpton and Oral Roberts, for example, had very limited formal education. Lincoln, I presume, was in the same category. But the clergy of the mainline denominations usually attend top universities often founded by the Protestants, among them Harvard, Yale, Duke, Emory, USC, Syracuse, BU, Clemson, SMU, various Wesleyans, Princeton, Rutgers, Swarthmore, Williams, Dartmouth and 300-400 more. Many of them have seminaries - and were even founded primarily to train ministers (e. g., Harvard, Yale, Princeton).  

 6. The notion that the priesthood is limited to males is undestandable in light of history, but there is precious little in scripture to aupport it unless you want to use analogies rather than examples (for example, no female apostles). In any case, times have changed, and Christianity must be a religion that adjusts. Catholicism blessed slavery at one time, too - and the Bible was even quoted. It also believed in witchcraft and thousands of 'witches' were murdered in Europe. And we could go on.

 7. Through the centuries the Catholic Church has changed its stand on a number of major issues. Even in Abelard's time that was obvious. Remember his work: Sic et Non? In it he showed how the Vatican switched positions to and fro. 

 8. A major goal should be reconciliation among Christians, and I find that many postings on "Catholic Answers" go in the opposite direction. They indicate severe intolerance rather than a desire to bridge differences and bring Christians together. Fortunately, in my community Catholics and Protestants work together well and last night, in fact, there was an ecumenical Thanksgiving service involving many different traditions. 

  9. I have a button which reads: "God bless the whole world." Then across it is the two words: "No exceptions!" I believe that this is a button which well reflects the love and example of Christ.

 

[mlchance]

I guess I simply have to say that tradition plays more of a role in Catholicism than I like. The church has changed many things over the years.

She has never once changed a matter of doctrine, which is precisely what ordination is.

Once priests were permitted to marry, for example. But sadly that changed…

I know a married Catholic priest. Apparently, it didn’t entirely change. Makes me think that you might not really be all that informed about that which you speak.

1. I can’t think of a higher-calling than to be a dedicated and loving husband and father. Celibacy should be a choice as it is among Protestant clergy.

Jesus Christ, OTOH, can think of a higher calling, and celibacy is a choice. Don’t want to be celibate? Don’t seek ordination.

1. I also think that marriage of clergy would cut down on sex scandals among the clergy.

I think that (a) not ordaining so many homosexual man and (b) ordained men taking more seriously their vows would cut down on sex scandals among the clergy. After all, there isn’t a shred of evidence to assert that sexual offenders offend because they’re unmarried.

1. The notion that the priesthood is limited to males is undestandable in light of history, but there is precious little in scripture to aupport it unless you want to use analogies rather than examples (for example, no female apostles).

Ah, yes. If one ignores Scripture, Tradition, and centuries of theological reflection, then ordaining women makes sense.

In any case, times have changed, and Christianity must be a religion that adjusts. Catholicism blessed slavery at one time…

No, it didn’t.

It also believed in witchcraft and thousands of ‘witches’ were murdered in Europe. And we could go on.

We could, but then your laundry list of inanities and half-truths would be even tedious.

1. Through the centuries the Catholic Church has changed its stand on a number of major issues.

Not a single issue of doctrine has ever been changed.

1. A major goal should be reconciliation among Christians…

Which has nothing to do with ordaining women.

1. I have a button which reads: “God bless the whole world.” Then across it is the two words: “No exceptions!” I believe that this is a button which well reflects the love and example of Christ.

I believe that quoting buttons betrays a possible very real lack of serious reflection.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I for one totally support the church on this one.
A.) Celibacy is a higher calling.
B.) It’s unfair to the wife, husband and children that their vows and family are now competing with the churches demand of being a priest. Ask the wives of protestant ministers. Lots of them say they have issues balancing the church vs family. Is that fair to anyone?
C.) I look around and see this protestant mega-churches that are run by a father and then passed down to their kids. Religion has become the family business and it makes me sick.
D.) Becoming a priest is not something that happens overnight. I have numerous friends who have applied to the seminaries and been rejected because the church felt they weren’t ready to enter. The church wants to make sure the men are not running from anything (family, money, desperation etc). And my friends that are in the seminary have to get Master in theology. Depending on their previous school studies this can be extra years of study.

But the Church also says that a married secular priesthood is okay. As the Eastern Catholic Churches have always had a married secular priesthood and the Latin Catholic Church has a number of married secular priests even with the discipline of celibacy.

 

[johnnykins]

Let me respond to the matters that i addressed - others can take up the rest.

A few follow-up rejoinders and comments.

1. I can't think of a higher-calling than to be a dedicated and loving husband and father. Celibacy should be a choice as it is among Protestant clergy.

Celibacy is a choice. Again, NO ONE forces anyone to be celibate - the man chooses it when he decides to be a Latin Rite Catholic priest. No One has the right to be a priest. No Latin Catholic is surprised to find that celibacy is the discipline in place generally for Latin Rite priests. You disagree with the pope on the issue. OK Many Catholics do so.

1. The notion that the priesthood is limited to males is undestandable in light of history, but there is precious little in scripture to aupport it unless you want to use analogies rather than examples (for example, no female apostles).

all of which reminds us that Catholicism holds Scripture and Sacred Tradition as the source of the faith - unlike Protestants.

In any case, times have changed, and Christianity must be a religion that adjusts. Catholicism blessed slavery at one time, too - and the Bible was even quoted. It also believed in witchcraft and thousands of ‘witches’ were murdered in Europe. And we could go on.

True - but these arguments are non-sequiturs. They have nothing to do with women as priests. they are red herrings. Catholicism holds that the priesthood is limited to men as part of the deposit of faith - it has no ability to change it without denying the faith. It may be a reason to not be Catholic, but for a catholic it is an inseparable part of the faith - unlike the other matters you cite.

1. Through the centuries the Catholic Church has changed its stand on a number of major issues. Even in Abelard’s time that was obvious. Remember his work: Sic et Non? In it he showed how the Vatican switched positions to and fro.

Certainly - but not as to the faith.

 8. A major goal should be reconciliation among Christians, and I find that many postings on "Catholic Answers" go in the opposite direction. They indicate severe intolerance rather than a desire to bridge differences and bring Christians together.

It is a major goal. But one cannot compromise on basics - on dogma - on revealed truth.

Fortunately, in my community Catholics and Protestants work together well and last night, in fact, there was an ecumenical Thanksgiving service involving many different traditions.

and that’s good. It should be that way. But to ask Catholics to cease to be Catholic in the spirit of ecumenism is not ecumenism at all - it’s apostasy.

9. I have a button which reads: "God bless the whole world." Then across it is the two words: "No exceptions!" I believe that this is a button which well reflects the love and example of Christ.

Agreed - but we must be honest and truthful in our dealings - and not demand more than is possible while retaining our integrity.

 

[Roy5]

My last word on this thread. So often the postings seem to sound as though we must embrace certain dogmae and belong to a certain church to get to heaven.

Theology generally is man-made. I know this is 'heresy', but it's what I've come to believe. The idea that a book or a pope are the ultimate authorities make less and less sense to me as the years go by. The Bible is full of all sorts of contradictions, confusions, and outright genocide and such. The notion that God speaks in a special way to a man in Rome stretches my imagination beyond the breaking point. The Mormons teach something similar about their top man, too. And the Muslims and Orthodox Jews consider their scriptures perfect. So much pious nonsense.

  Just have read Hitchen's book "god is not great!". I strongly disagree with him, of course, but he does an impressive job of showing how religion has done such enormous damage over the years. The problem is that one religion or another thinks it has a special connection to God which no other religion has. Poppycock! That's when religion can turn sour.

  The older I grow, the more I'm attracted to the Quaker way. I would miss certain liturgical aspects of religious practice, but I certainly salute their tolerance, humility, open-mindedness and their peace testimony. Could there be such a thing as a Quaker Catholic? I even like their official name: Society of Friends.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

  The older I grow, the more I'm attracted to the Quaker way. I would miss certain liturgical aspects of religious practice, but I certainly salute their tolerance, humility, open-mindedness and their peace testimony. Could there be such a thing as a Quaker Catholic? I even like their official name: Society of Friends.

Richard Nixon was a Quaker

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

Richard Nixon was a Quaker

And what’s wrong with Richard Nixon?

Anyway, the Church needs a central authority. obviously, not everything is adressed in the Bible. Therefore, we must have a central authority to show us what is right in Biblical interpretations, etc. Why, then, doesn’t the Holy Spirit come to us all equally and tell us? If He did, then we would not need the Church, and there would be no Church. Make sense?

 

[PatienceAndLove]

And what’s wrong with Richard Nixon?

Nothing. Just pointing it out

Anyway, the Church needs a central authority. obviously,not everything is addressed in the Bible. Therefore, we must have a central authority to show us what is right in Biblical interpretations, etc. Why, then, doesn’t the Holy Spirit come to us all equally and tell us? If He did, then we would not need the Church, and there would be no Church. Make sense?

So right Tim K!
John 21: 25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

2 Thess 2:14 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.