the first Church.

[OneTrueCathApos]

i agree. sometimes i feel Catholics need to swallow their Catholic pride if we are ever to better relations between these two groups.

You are mistaken Catholic pride for Catholic contentment in Christ. I myself know 100% that Jesus established the Catholic church and that should be it. I am very content with this as are 1.1 Billion other Catholics. We are secure. We know the truth.

 

[denwiles]

Really? Then how do you explain the authority given to Peter by Christ who mentions “His church”. Read:

Matthew 16:18
1Timothy 3:15
Mathew 18:15-18
Ephesians 3:10
1Corinthians 14:12
Acts 20:28, KJV

Remember the church was in existence before the bible. There is only ONE TRUE CHURCH, the Catholic church. (Why can’t others see this, for it is so clearly written in Scripture).

True, but show me Peter was Catholic, He wasn’t!! He was a Child of God. The argument is not if Peter was the main leader but that He wasn’t a Catholic. Guess What Jesus is not a Catholic and the Blessed Mary is also a Child of God and not Catholic. In Revelations Jesus delt with 7 diffrent Churches and Paul founded several Curches. The Corinthian Church was one of them. And guess what Paul Rebuked Peter and Peter still took up for Paul. Jesus is the Rock. A wise man builds his house or Church on the Rock.
The Catholics don’t own Mary, but boy do some of our leaders and lay think so.

 

[guanophore]

True, but show me Peter was Catholic, He wasn’t!! He was a Child of God.

What are you saying? Catholics can’t be children of God?

Peter, as one of the Apostles, was one of the very first Catholics. Only Jesus Mother was earlier.

The argument is not if Peter was the main leader but that He wasn’t a Catholic.

I don’t see any arguement. Peter was the leader. Peter was a good Catholic. What is there to argue?

Guess What Jesus is not a Catholic and the Blessed Mary is also a Child of God and not Catholic.

Technically speaking,they were Jews. However, after the birth of the Church, things changed.

In Revelations Jesus delt with 7 diffrent Churches and Paul founded several Curches. The Corinthian Church was one of them. And guess what Paul Rebuked Peter and Peter still took up for Paul. Jesus is the Rock. A wise man builds his house or Church on the Rock.

I guess I am missing your point here. All these churches were Catholic Churches.

The Catholics don’t own Mary, but boy do some of our leaders and lay think so.

IT would be more accurate to say that Mary owns us! All who are disciples of her Son are her offspring.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Then a read of the letters of St. Paul in the NT will help. These letters (esp. Gal.) along with the narrative in Acts will make it clear that some were teaching opposite of the Apostles.

Gabriel of 12;
You are mixing temple practicing Jews with converted Jews and Gentiles from Galatian, Corinthian and or Rome in the New Testament. We are not discussing the same Jews who did not come to believe in “The Way” as did the Apostles and other Jews. Again I know of no Pharisee or Sadduccee Jew from the first century who was in heresy. Now the Jew may have contended the followers of “The Way” to be in heresy, as they falsely claimed Jesus to be teaching. The Galatian and other New Testament communities from the Epistles of Paul are addressing converted Jews and Gentiles from these communities not Temple practicing Jews, if anything Paul taught these communities to refrain from these and to the Converted Gentile to refrain from their pagan sacrifices, and adhere to what he Paul handed down to them in the apostles “Tradition” of the Eucharist in the one bread that united all of them, that removed the dividing wall of Jew and Gentile and made them members of the One True Bread in Jesus Christ.

guanophore;
You have imagined a separation that did not exist. The Church was not divided into East and West at this time in history. She was all One.

Gabriel of 12;
Thank you, now if you can just remember this, there is only One Faith, One Baptism, One Lord that united all the Christian communities in the Catholic church since the first century to today.

When I mention East and West not as a division, but how the heresies affected there provinces in each community. Constantine from Constantinople did not rule over the Roman Catholic Church as he did the Eastern Church. Understanding the heresies, will open ones eyes to the faithfullness of the Roman Western Catholic Church and how the Primacy of Peter was recognized by the Great Eastern Catholic Saints and Martyrs.

Again not displaying a division of East and West but how these were united in one faith. I did not imagine a division, Protestants and non catholics make this claim. I am of the Roman Rite in the Catholic church we dont see any division here, only the battle of heretics who attacked the One True Catholic church Jesus built, from both the East and West were being persecuted from within her members in the East, and from Pagan Emperors from the West to proclaim her “Apostolic Orthodox” faith in life or death> There is no imagined division ever, just as you claimed.

Just because Jesus a Jew preached the day of Lord when he walked the earth, this was a new teaching that became “The Way” Jewish converts from Judiasm, then her members became indentified as Christians. Christian was the second name of these members, what became and remained Christians first name was “Catholic” which as the New Testament defines the Catholic “Church” as the body of Jesus Christ.

The Catholic church is what became of “The Way” when all peoples were included in the “universal” Catholic church. “The Way” identified the Jews who were converting to the body of Jesus Christ, this title became Universal “Catholic” when her members included all peoples, tongues, and nations.

These terms do not cause a division because the “Rock” Faith from “The Way” now Catholic was handed down the Priesthood, Teachings and Sacraments from the followers of “The Way”. Thus the Catholic church consists of the New Testament ( Letters and writings from the Apostles) and Oral Apostolic Traditions, without both of these no church has the full deposit of faith from Jesus and the Apostles. These apostolic letters which the Catholic church possesses what you and I call the New Testament, and her Apostolic Traditions possesses the full deposit of faith.

No other christian community can make or prove this claim from history except the Catholic faith.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

True, but show me Peter was Catholic, He wasn’t!! He was a Child of God. The argument is not if Peter was the main leader but that He wasn’t a Catholic. Guess What Jesus is not a Catholic and the Blessed Mary is also a Child of God and not Catholic. In Revelations Jesus delt with 7 diffrent Churches and Paul founded several Curches. The Corinthian Church was one of them. And guess what Paul Rebuked Peter and Peter still took up for Paul. Jesus is the Rock. A wise man builds his house or Church on the Rock.
The Catholics don’t own Mary, but boy do some of our leaders and lay think so.

The Church Christ built was Catholic. The 7 different Churches were all of the same doctrines, evident by the letters St. Paul sent to them all, teaching the same things, to be of full accord and one mind and judgment. Jesus was Catholic as His Church was to be the universal Church. There was only one Church until 1054 when the great schism occurred and then those two Churches followed Catholic doctrine. All that changed with the Protestant reformation that took place in the 1500s, as men apparently forgot Christ’s promises that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it and to be with His Church until the consummation.

The first time the word Catholic was written was in 106AD, just a few years after the book of Revelations had been written, several hundred years before the canon of the Bible had been defined.

 

[Hesychios]

Peter, as one of the Apostles, was one of the very first Catholics.

He was an Orthodox-Catholic.

 

[Hesychios]

The 7 different Churches were all of the same doctrines, evident by the letters St. Paul sent to them all, teaching the same things, to be of full accord and one mind and judgment.

Yes, this is true.

They were not owned or controlled by any other church though. The church at Ephesus did not control the church at Philadelphia for example. Each was a separate and distinct organization, sharing a common theology. The church at Rome had no connection with these, although it too, at the time presumably shared the same theology.

If you are curious you may read Father Raymond Brown for a more detailed explanation.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Yes, this is true.

They were not owned or controlled by any other church though. The church at Ephesus did not control the church at Philadelphia for example. Each was a separate and distinct organization, sharing a common theology. The church at Rome had no connection with these, although it too, at the time presumably shared the same theology.

If you are curious you may read Father Raymond Brown for a more detailed explanation.

The Church the Apostles left behind? I don’t think so. We know Peter and Paul were martyred in Rome. So, evidently through their writings they did have a connection.

 

[Hesychios]

The Church the Apostles left behind? I don’t think so. We know Peter and Paul were martyred in Rome. So, evidently through their writings they did have a connection.

They apparently weren’t carrying deeds with them, because these churches were never administered from Rome, and never did adopt the distinctly Roman developments like the filioque, purgatory or the Latin understanding of First Sin.

They each grew into dioceses of the Orthodox Church.

BTW, father Raymond Brown was a Roman Catholic priest and noted Biblical scholar. Your pastor would know him by his name. If you have a problem with this, you have a problem with a Roman Catholic priest and theologian.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

They apparently weren’t carrying deeds with them, because these churches were never administered from Rome, and never did adopt the distinctly Roman developments like the filioque, purgatory or the Latin understanding of First Sin.

They each grew into dioceses of the Orthodox Church.

BTW, father Raymond Brown was a Roman Catholic priest and noted Biblical scholar. Your pastor would know him by his name. If you have a problem with this, you have a problem with a Roman Catholic priest and theologian.

But it took the Orthodox years over a thousand years to arrive at that understanding or rejection of those things?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

They apparently weren’t carrying deeds with them, because these churches were never administered from Rome, and never did adopt the distinctly Roman developments like the filioque, purgatory or the Latin understanding of First Sin.

They each grew into dioceses of the Orthodox Church.

BTW, father Raymond Brown was a Roman Catholic priest and noted Biblical scholar. Your pastor would know him by his name. If you have a problem with this, you have a problem with a Roman Catholic priest and theologian.

It almost sounds like you deny Peter and Paul’s authority while they were in Rome. Deeds? Sorry, I don’t agree with that view.

 

[LutheranDK]

But it doesn’t matter what they think. Jesus established the Catholic church whether they like it or not. The more they realize this, the better relations will be between us.

Again: This is what you believe. And fair enough. But that does not mean that to disagree with this belief is to, say, deny historical facts (even though some people try to paint that picture).
You cannot compare denying the claim that Jesus founded the RC church to, say, denying that the battle of Waterloo took place, or that Germany stole Slesvig-Holsten from Denmark in 1864. The latter are factual historical events, thoroughly witnessed and established. Fact.
The former is a question which is inseperable from that of theology, and therefore not merely a matter of whether or not a historical event took place.

Example: I agree that Jesus founded the Church Catholic. (bearing in mind the meaning of the Greek word) But I do not agree that the Church Catholic and the RC church is one and the same. And I have not to date seen any arguments in favor of this which did not in some way or another constitute circular reasoning.
For instance:

1: Jesus founded the RC church, because the RC church says so, and the RC church is right, because it’s the one that Jesus founded.

2: Jesus founded the RC church, because Ignatius uses the word “katholikos” (“Catholic”), and that means = The RC church, because the church says so.

And I could continue…

The bottom line: I have yet to encounter A SINGLE piece of reasoning pointing to the RC church being the church that Jesus founded, which did not presume this to start with.

And no - even though some people might like to read anti-RC-attitudes into this post, there is none to be found. Only frustration at the intellectual level which some posters’ posts display.
It feels like this: :banghead:

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Again: This is what you believe. And fair enough. But that does not mean that to disagree with this belief is to, say, deny historical facts (even though some people try to paint that picture).
You cannot compare denying the claim that Jesus founded the RC church to, say, denying that the battle of Waterloo took place, or that Germany stole Slesvig-Holsten from Denmark in 1864. The latter are factual historical events, thoroughly witnessed and established. Fact.
The former is a question which is inseperable from that of theology, and therefore not merely a matter of whether or not a historical event took place.

Example: I agree that Jesus founded the Church Catholic. (bearing in mind the meaning of the Greek word) But I do not agree that the Church Catholic and the RC church is one and the same. And I have not to date seen any arguments in favor of this which did not in some way or another constitute circular reasoning.
For instance:

1: Jesus founded the RC church, because the RC church says so, and the RC church is right, because it’s the one that Jesus founded.

2: Jesus founded the RC church, because Ignatius uses the word “katholikos” (“Catholic”), and that means = The RC church, because the church says so.

And I could continue…

The bottom line: I have yet to encounter A SINGLE piece of reasoning pointing to the RC church being the church that Jesus founded, which did not presume this to start with.

And no - even though some people might like to read anti-RC-attitudes into this post, there is none to be found. Only frustration at the intellectual level which some posters’ posts display.
It feels like this: :banghead:

I don’t believe Martin Luther started a reformation because he doubted the origin of the Church.

 

[Hesychios]

But it took the Orthodox years over a thousand years to arrive at that understanding or rejection of those things?

It is not the Orthodox church which has changed, the Latin church added these new understandings.

You can thank Saint Augustine for your understanding of Original Sin, he was born 350 years after Christ. Before that Rome had an Orthodox understanding of original sin, which we call First Sin.

I don’t even know when the doctrine of Purgatory was first defined, but I think is may date from the scholastic era, which is 1,000 years after Christ. You can check that out for yourself, I lack the time today.

The filioque was unknown in the west until the local Council of Toledo in 589AD. It Spread to Gaul two hundred years later under protest from the bishops of Rome (to no avail, Popes did not have much authority outside of their own Metropolitan church until long after the schism). The king of the Holy Roman empire basically forced the church in the city of Rome to adopt the filioque early in the eleventh century.

Holy Orthodoxy teaches the original orthodox catholic Christian faith.

 

[guanophore]

But it took the Orthodox years over a thousand years to arrive at that understanding or rejection of those things?

No, it took 1000 years for the differences in culture and language to develop division and the arrogance of pride to result in mutual excommunications.

 

[denwiles]

The Church Christ built was Catholic. The 7 different Churches were all of the same doctrines, evident by the letters St. Paul sent to them all, teaching the same things, to be of full accord and one mind and judgment. Jesus was Catholic as His Church was to be the universal Church. There was only one Church until 1054 when the great schism occurred and then those two Churches followed Catholic doctrine. All that changed with the Protestant reformation that took place in the 1500s, as men apparently forgot Christ’s promises that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it and to be with His Church until the consummation.

The first time the word Catholic was written was in 106AD, just a few years after the book of Revelations had been written, several hundred years before the canon of the Bible had been defined.

The word Church in the Greek is “Called out ones” Holy means “set apart” All I am saying is this: all who call or are called out of the world through the Father and are set apart by the Blood of Jesus (Made Holy) are part of the Church. Catholic in early Church Father times met universal and still does. I agree the Church was Catholic “Universal” But it is Historicaly proven that the Roman Catholic Church was founded in 360 A.D. You were bought with a Price “the Blood of Jesus” So He owns you, not Mary. Protestants, Messiaonic Jews, Catholics and all who are saved belong to the Catholic “universal Church” All occults say you must go my way or burn, it is mind control and scare tactics. We must never say my way or you are acursed. I know our Lord and scare tactics don’t work on me. God has brought me all over the US to preach the Gospel, feed the poor, Pray for the Sick and see hundreds of people healed, and yes many Demons cast out. I have seen athiest believe in God again. I work for the Lord, because I love Him. When you minister to the Hopless and you give them hope through Christ it will change who you are. You will Love the unloveable. Hug the homless and provide for the weak. Yes sir I will Preach Christ Crucified and all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. And Peter was a Child of God a Catholic ya, but not a Roman Catholic.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

The word Church in the Greek is “Called out ones” Holy means “set apart” All I am saying is this: all who call or are called out of the world through the Father and are set apart by the Blood of Jesus (Made Holy) are part of the Church. Catholic in early Church Father times met universal and still does. I agree the Church was Catholic “Universal” But it is Historicaly proven that the Roman Catholic Church was founded in 360 A.D. You were bought with a Price “the Blood of Jesus” So He owns you, not Mary. Protestants, Messiaonic Jews, Catholics and all who are saved belong to the Catholic “universal Church” All occults say you must go my way or burn, it is mind control and scare tactics. We must never say my way or you are acursed. I know our Lord and scare tactics don’t work on me. God has brought me all over the US to preach the Gospel, feed the poor, Pray for the Sick and see hundreds of people healed, and yes many Demons cast out. I have seen athiest believe in God again. I work for the Lord, because I love Him. When you minister to the Hopless and you give them hope through Christ it will change who you are. You will Love the unloveable. Hug the homless and provide for the weak. Yes sir I will Preach Christ Crucified and all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. And Peter was a Child of God a Catholic ya, but not a Roman Catholic.

G1577
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see’-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

St. Ignatius was a disciple of St. John and received his appointment from St. Peter. In 106AD, St. Ignatius wrote the following.

**

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution(55) of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper(56) Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church

.**

You seem to want to confuse, or sidetrack, the discussion by stating, “…He owns you, not Mary.” This is an apparent misconception of many Protestants. Catholics believe that Christ was the sacrificial Lamb of God. Mary was full of grace, selected by God to be the ark of the new covenant, who totally submitted to God’s will. Just as Christ followed the Father’s commandments, He perfectly honored His mother. This is why Catholics honor Mary.

Peter and Paul were martyred in Rome. You try to separate Rome and Catholic with your misconception that Rome started another form of Catholicism. It was the Apostles that brought the Catholic Church to Rome.

Constantine was a Roman Emperor who legalized Christianity, returning Church property to Christians, which began the first Christian connection with state and Church. Prior to Constantine’s legalization of Christianity, Christians were persecuted with the penalty of death. He was not a Pope, nor is he listed in the Latin’s Church of saints.

Constantine was Roman emperor from 306, and the undisputed holder of that office from 324 until his death in 337. Best known for being the first Christian Roman emperor, Constantine reversed the persecutions of his predecessor, Diocletian, and issued (with his co-emperor Licinius) the Edict of Milan in 313, which proclaimed religious toleration throughout the empire.

Other Christian named Churches, besides Catholic, were not named differently until the reformation of the 1500s, and much later. All those Churches have roots to the Roman Catholic Church.

If you want to provide sources showing the Catholic Church was started in 360AD, please do so. It’s hard to refute an assertion without any sources to support it.

 

[guanophore]

The word Church in the Greek is “Called out ones” Holy means “set apart” All I am saying is this: all who call or are called out of the world through the Father and are set apart by the Blood of Jesus (Made Holy) are part of the Church. Catholic in early Church Father times met universal and still does. I agree the Church was Catholic “Universal” But it is Historicaly proven that the Roman Catholic Church was founded in 360 A.D.

I am very excited, Dennis, to see the “historical proof” of which you have spoken here. If it is too big to paste in one message, you can use many, or you can just post a link!

Constantine was Roman emperor from 306, and the undisputed holder of that office from 324 until his death in 337. Best known for being the first Christian Roman emperor, Constantine reversed the persecutions of his predecessor, Diocletian, and issued (with his co-emperor Licinius) the Edict of Milan in 313, which proclaimed religious toleration throughout the empire.

You need to cite your sources, Dennis. Where did this passage come from? Constantine was sympathetic to Christians because his mother was a Christian, but he did not become a Christian until he was on his deathbed. Whoever said he was a “Christian Emperor” is not in posession of all the facts.

Were you taught that he started the Roman Catholic Church? This is a common error I have heard among Protestants.

 

[jbelokur]

Protestants, Messiaonic Jews, Catholics and all who are saved belong to the Catholic “universal Church” All occults say you must go my way or burn, it is mind control and scare tactics. We must never say my way or you are acursed. I know our Lord and scare tactics don’t work on me.

Well, according to your own criteria the Catholic Church must be and occult. Any one who has studied Church History will find many Ecumenical Councils that difinitively determine truth and set it apart from heresy. Then after each ecumenical council the Holy Father decreese that anyone who continues to choose to teach and live by the Heredy will excomunicate themselves. It is not scare tactics it is the truth.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

1: Jesus founded the RC church, because the RC church says so, and the RC church is right, because it’s the one that Jesus founded.

Gabriel of 12;
Jesus built his Church upon “Peter” present day Pope with unbroken succession which today resides in the Roman Catholic Church. This does not divide the Eastern Catholic apostolic successors (Bishops). Catholic = all those baptised in One Faith, One Lord, who partake of the One bread in the body, blood soul and divinity of Jesus Christ.The Roman Catholic Church never claims to be right; She is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ. Commissioned by Jesus Christ to baptise all nations and teach, feed, and tend the flock of God until he returns. Can anyone argue with the Gospels?

Matthew 16:18 "And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, andthe gates of the netherword shall not prevail against it.

John 21:15-17; 3 times Jesus tells Peter himself singularly with the disciples present including John, to “Feed my lambs”, “Tend my sheep”, “Feed my sheep”.

Lutheran DK;
2: Jesus founded the RC church, because Ignatius uses the word “katholikos” (“Catholic”), and that means = The RC church, because the church says so.

Gabriel of 12;
You are misinformed here; St. Ignatius martyred in Rome (d.107) practiced Catholicism because he did not refrain from the Eucharist, this bread from heaven is what united the Catholic church. Here is the Catholic St. Ignatius " Heretics are those who “abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ” (Smyrnaens 7).

What you are arguing is the authority placed on Peter from Jesus to be seperate from the Eucharistic body of Jesus Christ in the Catholic Church, this is not possible; what God has joined together let no man seperate. Here is Jesus speaking to Peter singularly again;

Matthew 16:19 “I will give you the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”.

Your Protest is against Jesus Christ not the Catholic Church, to find your reasoning. The practices of the Liturgy since the first century is still practiced today almost “Verbatim” in the Catholic Church. Authority of Peter is another chapter of history which sacred scripture again supports along with Apostolic Tradition and Historical record.

Peace be with you