the first Church.

[guanophore]

Wow, you are all over the map on this one issue of “Roman Catholic”.

Really? What makes you say that? Actually, Ruthenia is a very small area on the map, comparitively.

I cannot give an opinion of Protestants services, or what you protest against them is not in charity by refusing to acknowledge protestants services as of the “divine” be it called liturgy, service

But you did give an opinion. You compared them to Catholic Rites, and this is not an appropriate comparison.

I never said that Protestant services are not “of the divine”. They were not instituted by Christ, and therefore, are lacking, just as Cain’s sacrifice was lacking in Comparison to Abel’s. We are to worship God on His terms, not ours.

it appears to me, we have missed the main point of discussion as far as authority is concerned in the Roman Catholic Church.

It seems quite clear that you have missed my point, which is that the Catholic Church is not “Roman”.

We were never comparing Catholic Rites

Indeed, you seem to believe that your own is the only valid one, and are persistently disrespectful of those who do not share it.

 of which I cautioned as to not confuse protestants Liturgies, Sunday bible study

You are disrespecting other members of the Catholic Church to avoid “confusing Protestants”. Why not just thrown out all the stuff that confuses Protestants? They are confused over the Marian doctrines. Why don’t we just leave those at the side of the road also?

just don’t confuse what is a valid Catholic Rite by recognizing all them as separate (which I disagree with you, when all are one in one body in one bread supported by different members). Thus Roman Catholicism solves this by naming authority.

Frankly, I cannot make any sense out of this.

Catholicism is not Roman, and pretending that it is does not “solve” anything.

The term of Roman Catholic need not apply to those of Valid Sacraments, Holy orders, and Liturgical Rites.  You **cannot name a "Coptic" or "Latin" rite to reference the universality or Catholicity of the whole Church.** But when the world states "Roman Catholic" she knows she is speaking about all those Catholic rites in full communion with the Roman Pontiff the Pope successor of Peter.

You say this, yet this is exactly what you are suggesting we should do. We should all pretend that the Church is Roman, so as not to confuse the “world”. Let’s jettison some other stuff that is confusing to the world also, shall we? They really get hung up on that “eat my body, and drink my blood” stuff. Let’s just say something else, can’t we, so we don’t confuse them?

I never stated that all valid Catholic Rites are "Roman Catholic".

No, you just said that all the Rites are Roman!

Now the argument I here you whispering in this topic is recognizing each Catholic Rite as independent from the Latin Rite to be an independent Church.

Then you are imagining things.

This is ecumenical thinking of late century recognizing independent Church’s be it Catholic Rite’s or Protestant (rites) worship services of their own authority, this summarizes what I have been trying to state here.

No, Gabriel, it is just a plea that you stop disrespecting non-Latin Rites.

I don't have a solution to change the Worlds view of the Roman Catholic Church, yes secular governments including the Eastern world recognize the Authority of the Roman Catholic Church. I don't believe you can spend 12 lifetimes to change the Worlds view of the authority coming from the Roman Catholic Church, as you appear to be addressing here from your late ecumenical thinking in terminology. Here I will conclude that I dont disagree with your valid assessments of the Catholic Rites. I only comment on how the world perceives all valid Catholic Rites in communion with the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, this is how those in communion with Rome are perceived, no matter how you or I  wish to term the Catholic Church, be it by Rite, or Roman Catholic by authority which includes all. This is not my opinion, this is world view.

You seem to be suggesting that we conform our selves to what is a common “world view”.

“Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
For by the grace given to me I bid every one among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith which God has assigned him.” Rom 12:1-2

If you wish to be conformed to this world, then you are succeeding. As a “Roman” Catholic, you seem to wish to think of yourself more highly than you ought.

The best solution to change the world is to become light and salt within it. This means that, instead of conforming yourself to the perceptions of the world, you represent to them what the Catholic Church believes and teaches.

My thinking is no different than that of the early persecuted church, maybe this is where we differ, you coming from a late ecumenical period, and you find me “Rock” stubborn. I dare say, the early church fathers taught me much, but there is still much more to learn.

No, we differ because I respect the non-Latin Rites of the Catholic Church as equal to yours, and because I don’t think it is appropriate for us to adopt and try to function within the erroneous mindset of the “world”.

 

[guanophore]

Good point, Secular world governments existing today from their history had to contend with the Roman Catholic Church or the authority of the Pope and Catholic Magisterium. From their recorded histories came either friend or foe of the Roman Pontiff, early on the Pope or Bishop of Rome was always sought out to "cut off the head of the body of the Catholic church .

Such a statement reveals a vast ignorance of world history. This is a very insulated European/American perspective that demonstrates little or no understanding of the Catholic Church in other areas of the world. I would love to send you to Antioch for the summer, so that you can find out how wrong you really are.

The last world Empire to exist was the Roman Empire that united both East and West.

It sounds like you took Western Civilization and stopped there.

Most Protestants came from the Catholic Church and their founders had allegiance to the Chair of Peter in Rome. Rome in her Bishop (the Pope) in unity with the Magisterium (all Catholic Bishops world wide) are understood by main Protestantism as the “Roman Catholic church”.

This is true. The Protestant Reformation is a unique stepchild of the Latin Rite. It was Latin Rite clerics whose corruption engendered it, and the revolt was solely against the Latin authorities. The Reformers were not even aware of the non-Latin Rites.

This title does not prejudice against the different Catholic Rites, but that those in communion with the Pope Bishop of Rome.

It most certainly does prejudice, especially from someone like you, who ought to have more respect and not use such pejoratives.

I hope you are addressing Vatican I and Vatican II, not the Sixth or Seventh councils? The reason “Roman Catholic” is not included in the Vatican council II documents is due to the Decree on Ecumenism (Unitatis Redintegratrio). In this literate age terminology with an ecumenical mindset is crucial. For example I have witnessed non catholic preaching preach " death before obedience to the Roman Catholic Church". The main reason for these councils was to clarify and bring unity back to Christianity. The wounds on both sides still run deep today in peoples and governments.

And a major part of healing those wounds is to avoid defining Catholicism as “Roman”.

Only Bishop terminology. So because"Pope" is never mentioned in the documents does not negate the office of Pope, but his office as successor of Peter is clearly mentioned. Ecumenical thinking cannot change what God has put together.

I agree, but your use of the term “Roman” seeks to negate the other Rites, for the sake of not “confusing” the Protestants. It is God who put together these 23 Rites into the Catholic Church. You try to change that by voiding the 22 that are not yours.

The Vatican documents from council I,II is a clarification of the Catholic faith in the present to express a venue for fallen away Christians and Catholics to come to an understanding and correct misconceptions of her teachings.

Maybe, when you read them, you too will come to understand that the Catholic Church is not Roman.

What I just expressed are my opinions and views of which you kindly inquired of me. And are open for discussion and debate.
Peace be with you

There is not much productive discussion that can be conducted with a person who insists on insulting others.

 

[guanophore]

I myself have been very confused also.

It appears that you still are.

ALL of the INDIVIDUAL PARTICULAR CHURCHS, eastern, or western IN COMMUNION the the APOSTOLIC SEE, ROME ARE PART OF THE CATHOLC CHURCH.

There have always been multiple Apostolic Sees, rinnie. Rome is only one of them.

The bottom line is this. When it comes to the WORD of God. We all agree. The sacraments have the same meaning, Its all the same. Its just they have different ways of expressing their faith. BUt the faith is the same.

I am glad to see that you are beginning to have more charity about the other Rites in the Catholic Church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

O.K. Prodigal, so what I’m understanding here it is both? The Church in Heaven and the militant Church on earth, both being lead by Jesus Christ? Would this not then be taking the historic view of Revelation that God is presenting to the world his Bride the Church, the New Jerusalem? All is fulfilled except the Second Coming of Jesus Christ?

Hey racing59,

I just got home from my shift.

I see Gabriel has answered you on this. It’s all one Church.

God Bless,

 

[racing59]

Blessing’s racing59; Just for clarification; The Church “Triumphant” is the one in heaven, the church militant is the same church on earth. All members of the New Jerusalem both in heaven and on earth are of the body of Jesus Christ in the “Catholic Church” where Jesus is the Head of the Catholic Church. The two are not separate from one another, thus “Communion of Saints” which is a biblical teaching and revelation.

St.Augustine is the one who coined the phrase the “New testament is hidden in the Old testament and the Old testament is revealed in the New Testament” after he received One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Oral Tradition with Sacred Scripture handed down to him after Jesus revealed “ALL” THE SCRIPTURES PERTAINING TO HIM to his apostles, not Dr. Scott Hahn.

The Catholic Church teaches that “Revelations” is past, present and future all of the above making this teaching “Eternal” present just like the Mass in its heavenly liturgical setting revealed in the book of Revelations.

I can tell you are not a Dr. Scott Hahn, that’s o.k., but I am. He makes a lot of sense.I’m not a fan of St.Augustine though he is the one that brought up the idea of infant limbo, it doesn’t make sense to me. I agree the Mass is eternal like the Heavenly liturgical worship.Although I’ve been told there is no Mass in Heaven by more than one priest.I do not agree that Revelation is past, present, and future(may be in her Revelation to different generations), but it is like Daniels Book was for the time of persecution during the reign of Antichous IV.Mark 13,Luke 21,Matthew 24 are clear. The are the little Apocalypse, Jesus last discourses on the Mount of Olives(Jesus last will and Testament be for he died). John omitted this from his Gospel and saved it for the Book of Revelation. Matthew 24:34 is clear “Amen, I say to you,This Generation will not pass until all things have taken place.” Jesus Is clearly talking of the destruction of the Temple in 70 a.d. Jesus died around 30 a.d. and a generation is 40 years(Israel wondered in the desert a Generation, 40 years). I disagree Revelation is a future event. A Beast coming and all that fear tactic and the seven hills being Rome.Seven in the number for Christ, Holy Spirit, and Covenants. Jerusalem is were Pentecost happened, the Holy Spirit. Mt. Moriah were Jerusalem was built on is the key in Salvation History. Just like Armagedon means Mt. Meggido not the end of the world. Meggido is were the last righteous king Josia was killed in the book of Kings.I don’t believe in Solo Scriptora, but the Bible says what it says, I read it in prayer with the Holy Spirit. Some thing has to make sense to me before I believe it.
Peace be with you

 

[greggy53]

I can tell you are not a Dr. Scott Hahn, that’s o.k., but I am. He makes a lot of sense.I’m not a fan of St.Augustine though he is the one that brought up the idea of infant limbo, it doesn’t make sense to me…

I have a protestant friend who has insisted that the only way to salvation is to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour. He told me that we must confess that to be saved.
I asked him “What happens to children who die before reaching the age of reason when they may accept or reject Christ, as well as others who have died never hearing the Gospel, are they damned?”

He said: “Well I believe God has a special grace for those people, and they are saved.”
I said: "How do you know that?, Where is your scriptural evidence for that?.
He could offer no scriptural evidence for that. I told him that the tradition of limbo was ONE possible explaination for that dilema.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I read the Bible shouldn’t the First CHurch have been Christs ministry as the example and the way it was practiced by his Disciples? If so most of the Churches now are not in the founder of the Christians image if that is a heirarchy with strict dogma and large mopney making engines earning profits. I would say the Home and Simple Church movements are the closest thing Christians have to a church like Christ would have envisioned.

Matthew 18:12 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the middle of them.

I don’t see any need for what some faiths are doing with huge worship sites when all that money could go to aiding the poor and society. And Jesus clearly in this passage did not demand more than say a family get together to honor God.

you have no distinguishing of who our Lord is talking to, do you? He is also talking to His disciples and not just anyone. the disciples who is also part of the Church. the Church and Jesus cannot be separated, the Church and the His people cannot be separated, the Church and SS cannot be separated.

 

[racing59]

I have a protestant friend who has insisted that the only way to salvation is to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour. He told me that we must confess that to be saved.
I asked him “What happens to children who die before reaching the age of reason when they may accept or reject Christ, as well as others who have died never hearing the Gospel, are they damned?”

He said: “Well I believe God has a special grace for those people, and they are saved.”
I said: "How do you know that?, Where is your scriptural evidence for that?.
He could offer no scriptural evidence for that. I told him that the tradition of limbo was ONE possible explaination for that dilema.

Infant Limbo is a whole debate on another thread. It is my understanding that it is not a teaching of RCC.Can you show me on another thread where any other Early Fathers believed this? Can you show me a site were this is Catholic doctrine on another thread please?
Peace

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Infant Limbo is a whole debate on another thread. It is my understanding that it is not a teaching of RCC.Can you show me on another thread where any other Early Fathers believed this? Can you show me a site were this is Catholic doctrine on another thread please?
Peace

Limbo

 

[wisdomseeker]

Interesting I have heard the other side of the coin; Anti Catholics, or unlearned Christians try to summarize and or justify that the Roman Catholic Church is a denomination separated from the other Catholic Church’s, by listing each “Catholic Rite” as a separate denomination from the Roman Catholic church, (this is never the case, for we all partake of the same bread in the body of Jesus Christ). In attempt to shrink the whole of Catholicism to a bunch of separated denominations as compared to Protestant denominations. People are being deceived by such anti Catholic rhetoric. The challenge to this site has been addressed here, it was revealed that the author of this site was anti Catholic and his research was false and done incorrectly.

Fact; The Roman Catholic Church is not and never will be a denomination. She is the body of Jesus Christ.

that is what we are talking about. you and me and others here know this but the world and protestants dont. so by refering to roman Catholic they are denying the CC all together as One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. my friend is a presbyterian and she is not dumb, and she also believe that the roman Catholic is just another denomination. somebody quietly is working against the CC spreading the lie that roman Catholic is just that another denomination. this fits with their idea that all believers is the Church and not just the CC.

 

[racing59]

I can tell you are not a Dr. Scott Hahn, that’s o.k., but I am. He makes a lot of sense.I’m not a fan of St.Augustine though he is the one that brought up the idea of infant limbo, it doesn’t make sense to me. I agree the Mass is eternal like the Heavenly liturgical worship.Although I’ve been told there is no Mass in Heaven by more than one priest.I do not agree that Revelation is past, present, and future(may be in her Revelation to different generations), but it is like Daniels Book was for the time of persecution during the reign of Antichous IV.Mark 13,Luke 21,Matthew 24 are clear. The are the little Apocalypse, Jesus last discourses on the Mount of Olives(Jesus last will and Testament be for he died). John omitted this from his Gospel and saved it for the Book of Revelation. Matthew 24:34 is clear “Amen, I say to you,This Generation will not pass until all things have taken place.” Jesus Is clearly talking of the destruction of the Temple in 70 a.d. Jesus died around 30 a.d. and a generation is 40 years(Israel wondered in the desert a Generation, 40 years). I disagree Revelation is a future event. A Beast coming and all that fear tactic and the seven hills being Rome.Seven in the number for Christ, Holy Spirit, and Covenants. Jerusalem is were Pentecost happened, the Holy Spirit. Mt. Moriah were Jerusalem was built on is the key in Salvation History. Just like Armagedon means Mt. Meggido not the end of the world. Meggido is were the last righteous king Josia was killed in the book of Kings.I don’t believe in Solo Scriptora, but the Bible says what it says, I read it in prayer with the Holy Spirit. Some thing has to make sense to me before I believe it.
Peace be with you

I’m still waiting for a response on this. The thread Prodigal gave me on infant Limbo left me more confused than ever, but I don’t want to get into Limbo at this time, I have enough to deal with.
Peace

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

I can tell you are not a Dr. Scott Hahn, that’s o.k., but I am. He makes a lot of sense.I’m not a fan of St.Augustine though he is the one that brought up the idea of infant limbo, it doesn’t make sense to me. I agree the Mass is eternal like the Heavenly liturgical worship.Although I’ve been told there is no Mass in Heaven by more than one priest.I do not agree that Revelation is past, present, and future(may be in her Revelation to different generations), but it is like Daniels Book was for the time of persecution during the reign of Antichous IV.Mark 13,Luke 21,Matthew 24 are clear. The are the little Apocalypse, Jesus last discourses on the Mount of Olives(Jesus last will and Testament be for he died). John omitted this from his Gospel and saved it for the Book of Revelation. Matthew 24:34 is clear “Amen, I say to you,This Generation will not pass until all things have taken place.” Jesus Is clearly talking of the destruction of the Temple in 70 a.d. Jesus died around 30 a.d. and a generation is 40 years(Israel wondered in the desert a Generation, 40 years). I disagree Revelation is a future event. A Beast coming and all that fear tactic and the seven hills being Rome.Seven in the number for Christ, Holy Spirit, and Covenants. Jerusalem is were Pentecost happened, the Holy Spirit. Mt. Moriah were Jerusalem was built on is the key in Salvation History. Just like Armagedon means Mt. Meggido not the end of the world. Meggido is were the last righteous king Josia was killed in the book of Kings.I don’t believe in Solo Scriptora, but the Bible says what it says, I read it in prayer with the Holy Spirit. Some thing has to make sense to me before I believe it.
Peace be with you

You say you are Dr. Scott Hahn? then you must have a BA with a triple-major in theology, Philosophy, and Economics, as well as a Master of Divinity and a P.H.D in Biblical Theology. Do you also speak nationally and internationally on a wide variety of topics related to Scripture and the Catholic faith? Are you a professor of Theology and Scripture at Franciscan University too? Good for you then racing, Ihad you all wrong!

 

[greggy53]

Infant Limbo is a whole debate on another thread. It is my understanding that it is not a teaching of RCC.Can you show me on another thread where any other Early Fathers believed this? Can you show me a site were this is Catholic doctrine on another thread please?
Peace

Well, the other guy brought it up not me. Limbo is not official doctrine of the Church. It is a teaching and tradition of the church that is centuries old. In Dante’s divine Comedy Limbo is placed outside of Hell, and is where the poet discourses with the virtuous pagans. I have heard Protestants laugh and make fun of teachings like this, but when confronted about it they can offer no better solutions. None that are scriptural to be sure.

 

[racing59]

You say you are Dr. Scott Hahn? then you must have a BA with a triple-major in theology, Philosophy, and Economics, as well as a Master of Divinity and a P.H.D in Biblical Theology. Do you also speak nationally and internationally on a wide variety of topics related to Scripture and the Catholic faith? Are you a professor of Theology and Scripture at Franciscan University too? Good for you then racing, Ihad you all wrong!

Once again OTCA you go off half cocked without reading my post. I said I was a fan of Dr.Scott Hahn.Get over yourself,I’m over you.Many complain how rude you are, you yell at a blind man,because he can’t see the color you see. You need to grow up!
Bless you in the name of Jesus

 

[wisdomseeker]

Once again OTCA you go off half cocked without reading my post. I said I was a fan of Dr.Scott Hahn.Get over yourself,I’m over you.Many complain how rude you are, you yell at a blind man,because he can’t see the color you see. You need to grow up!
Bless you in the name of Jesus

hi racing59.
you said you are a fan of Scott Hahn, good. he is a Catholic now, are you listen to him because you are interested in the CC? one question though if you are listen to Scott, why are coming up with all these idea about the Church?

 

[racing59]

Well, the other guy brought it up not me. Limbo is not official doctrine of the Church. It is a teaching and tradition of the church that is centuries old. In Dante’s divine Comedy Limbo is placed outside of Hell, and is where the poet discourses with the virtuous pagans. I have heard Protestants laugh and make fun of teachings like this, but when confronted about it they can offer no better solutions. None that are scriptural to be sure.

Hi greggy53, I’m sorry if my post came off the wrong way, I’d like to deal with Limbo, but at another time. I guess that is not possible so I’ll go into it now.The idea of Limbo did not come into play until St. Augustine, to my knowledge no other Early Father discussed the matter.The Bible itself says not everything is included in the Books.Limbo was not a doctrine of the Early Christian Church,it came centuries later. Prodigal Sons post gives a link to this websites thoughts on Limbo. It is not a necessary belief to be in RCC. Jesus said “Let the children come on to me.” So the idea of a fourth realm(Heaven,Hell, Purgatory,Limbo) does not make since to me.Then I know there is the argument of Original Sin and being Baptized. So you see we can get deep into theological discussion, which was getting away from what I posted to Gabriel 12 on the Church,Revelation,New Jerusalem, and the Heavenly Liturgy.A fourth realm is no where in Scripture, I can see Purgatory being the third realm that Jesus preached to those imprisoned there before he rose from the dead.

 

[racing59]

hi racing59.
you said you are a fan of Scott Hahn, good. he is a Catholic now, are you listen to him because you are interested in the CC? one question though if you are listen to Scott, why are coming up with all these idea about the Church?

Hi wisdomseeker, I came to certain conclusions on Revelation when I was an ***.Pastor in a Baptist based Church. My Mom(God bless here Saintly soul) was raised RCC, my dad was raised Southern Baptist, and most my family is Pentecostal. A Catholic friend gave me a ton of books and tapes by Dr.Scott Hahn.I liked them. In studying the Early Fathers, the Early Church,the CCC, and Scripture, I found there were no official doctrines on things I believe, such as “The Tree of Life” the Church being revealed in Revelation, except for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.Some RC have shown me post were Pope John Paul II believed what I believed. I have found RC in America does not always agree with RC in Rome. Some of my thoughts I have been persecuted for having… The same I have found for Dr. Scott Hahn. I’m sorry, but I’m not ready to be what I feel is a robot.Some priest and nuns teach wrong that are not in harmony with the Pope in Rome.If they are human and not speaking infallible than how can I trust a teaching is sound doctrine believed by the Church from the beginning.If RCC in America has the"Fullness of Truth." Than it should be able to answer the questions I have. That is why I am here. Any of this make any sense?
Peace be with you

 

[ParkerD]

I was gone racing all weekend so I’m catching up on all the posts on different threads.In reading and reflecting on the question of the first Church something hit me reading the different post.Some RC members claim to be the First and Only Church.They have also claimed when the RC leadership has done wrong their is no connection to the teachings of the RCC.for I have also seen some RC members say the Catholic Church is beyond a building and explain that if a person is ill in a building it is not the building that is ill. This got me reflecting on Scripture and history.With this being said it is logical for me in my opinion to conclude RCC was not the First Church and I’ll explain why. It stands to reason that the very First Universal(Catholic)Church for all the world, for both gentile and Jew would have been Solomon’s Temple in the Book of Kings. The Ark of the Covenant was there in the Holy of Holies. The Shekinaof the Lord was in the Holy of Holies. The Jews were to introduce God to the world.Jerusalem was the focal point of all Salvation History.The mecca center for all worship of the God of Abraham,Issac,and Jacob.Melchizedeck had come down from Salem, which later became Jerusalem. Melchizedek was not a Jew, but a Gentile, but he was still King and Priest for God. My point is this, in understanding the Old Testament, God did not take the Church from Israel and has the promise one day the Temple to be rebuilt and restored to the Glory of Solomons Temple.But like some have suggested the Church is not a building or a single person, it is the Wisdom of God. In turn I conclude the First Church belong to Israel to introduce God to the world.This would make Israel still the First Church. Peace be with you

Racing59,
I wanted you to know that your post here made a great deal of sense, and I don’t think the responses to it adequately addressed the points you made. I think you have done a lot of deep thinking and reading, and that you are “on the right track” (double meaning intended). If you would like to discuss your ideas on this topic further, I would enjoy that. How much reading do you do in the books of Isaiah and Hosea?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hi wisdomseeker, I came to certain conclusions on Revelation when I was an ***.Pastor in a Baptist based Church. My Mom(God bless here Saintly soul) was raised RCC, my dad was raised Southern Baptist, and most my family is Pentecostal. A Catholic friend gave me a ton of books and tapes by Dr.Scott Hahn.I liked them. In studying the Early Fathers, the Early Church,the CCC, and Scripture, I found there were no official doctrines on things I believe, such as “The Tree of Life” the Church being revealed in Revelation, except for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.Some RC have shown me post were Pope John Paul II believed what I believed. I have found RC in America does not always agree with RC in Rome. Some of my thoughts I have been persecuted for having… The same I have found for Dr. Scott Hahn. I’m sorry, but I’m not ready to be what I feel is a robot.Some priest and nuns teach wrong that are not in harmony with the Pope in Rome.If they are human and not speaking infallible than how can I trust a teaching is sound doctrine believed by the Church from the beginning.If RCC in America has the"Fullness of Truth." Than it should be able to answer the questions I have. That is why I am here. Any of this make any sense?
Peace be with you

I can quite understand your feelings. what i can tell you is the RC in America is the same is the CC in rome. they are not separated. the CC is One everywhere in the World. i know there are many opinions going around. but they are just opinions and nothing else. if someone in the Church is saying something that is not the teachings of the Church is because they are just misinformed and dont know any better. i have seen CCD teachers teaching children about the left behind series. as you can see they are not paying attention to what the Church is teaching. they have been more exposed to protestants teaching than to Catholic teachings. we must realize that after VII, it seems like we were paralyzed for while, the teachings of the Church were put on hold. another thing is that protestants want what they believe as true. first, you must separate your form yourself and listen to what the Church is teaching. if this makes any sense. if you want to enterpret the Bible for yourself than your enterpretation is going to colide with the CC. priests and nuns are also people they can make mistakes, but they are there for a purpose and we are grateful to them. it may be few here and there that are dissobedient, nothing more. it is ok. the Apostles were not perfect either. they had dissagreemets, but it never compromised the Truth, the Truth is protected by Christ through His Chruch. what you must concentrate on is the fact that Jesus promised He would be with His Church always.

:bowdown::byzsoc:

 

[racing59]

I can quite understand your feelings. what i can tell you is the RC in America is the same is the CC in rome. they are not separated. the CC is One everywhere in the World. i know there are many opinions going around. but they are just opinions and nothing else. if someone in the Church is saying something that is not the teachings of the Church is because they are just misinformed and dont know any better. i have seen CCD teachers teaching children about the left behind series. as you can see they are not paying attention to what the Church is teaching. they have been more exposed to protestants teaching than to Catholic teachings. we must realize that after VII, it seems like we were paralyzed for while, the teachings of the Church were put on hold. another thing is that protestants want what they believe as true. first, you must separate your form yourself and listen to what the Church is teaching. if this makes any sense. if you want to enterpret the Bible for yourself than your enterpretation is going to colide with the CC. priests and nuns are also people they can make mistakes, but they are there for a purpose and we are grateful to them. it may be few here and there that are dissobedient, nothing more. it is ok. the Apostles were not perfect either. they had dissagreemets, but it never compromised the Truth, the Truth is protected by Christ through His Chruch. what you must concentrate on is the fact that Jesus promised He would be with His Church always.

:bowdown::byzsoc:

You hit the nail on the head that the Apostles didn’t always agree.Different rite in the Church have not always agreed.The Church militant claims to have the “Fullness of Truth” through the Apostles.Yet I find not everything in Scripture or Tradition has been spoken from the infallible Chair of Peter. Infant Limbo is a prime example, Catholics or allowed to believe or not believe. The Tree of Life is another. I’m tired of people looking at me as if I’m crazy to bring up the Tree of Life.If it was important enough for God to put it in Sacred Scripture, it is important for me to reflect upon.No Pope has talked infallible on The Tree of Life, yet I have found Pope John Paul II reflected on it a lot. I also found it to be what I believe, so how am I Scripture, when it has never been taught or spoken infallibly on. No I do not speak infallibly, but neither has the Church on some Scriptures. So I can’t have a thought? If the Church has the “Fullness of Truth” then why no official doctrine? The Early Christian Church had no thought or teaching on Infant Limbo, that came centuries later by Augustine.There is no infallible teaching on it, yet you are allowed to reflect on it’s meaning. Seems to me a double standard.Forgive me I’m frustrated because I see beauty in the Catholic Church in Heaven, but I can’t be a robot without thoughts in the Militant Church on earth were humans are doing the teaching. Once again forgive my frustration, this is not an attack, it is frustration.
Peace be with you