the first Church.

[wisdomseeker]

You hit the nail on the head that the Apostles didn’t always agree.Different rite in the Church have not always agreed.The Church militant claims to have the “Fullness of Truth” through the Apostles.Yet I find not everything in Scripture or Tradition has been spoken from the infallible Chair of Peter. Infant Limbo is a prime example, Catholics or allowed to believe or not believe. The Tree of Life is another. I’m tired of people looking at me as if I’m crazy to bring up the Tree of Life.If it was important enough for God to put it in Sacred Scripture, it is important for me to reflect upon.No Pope has talked infallible on The Tree of Life, yet I have found Pope John Paul II reflected on it a lot. I also found it to be what I believe, so how am I Scripture, when it has never been taught or spoken infallibly on. No I do not speak infallibly, but neither has the Church on some Scriptures. So I can’t have a thought? If the Church has the “Fullness of Truth” then why no official doctrine? The Early Christian Church had no thought or teaching on Infant Limbo, that came centuries later by Augustine.There is no infallible teaching on it, yet you are allowed to reflect on it’s meaning. Seems to me a double standard.Forgive me I’m frustrated because I see beauty in the Catholic Church in Heaven, but I can’t be a robot without thoughts in the Militant Church on earth were humans are doing the teaching. Once again forgive my frustration, this is not an attack, it is frustration.
Peace be with you

you are frustrated, i can see that. forgive me for not explain myself better. when i mentioned that the Apostles did not agree, i did not mean in matters of Faith adn Morals, i meant to say that they did not agree in certains things like St Paul having a problem with the other disciple because he left St Paul once. little things like that. but never about the Truth of the teachings of Jesus Christ. remember that Jesus said. I will send the HS and He will lead you into all Truth. believe this. we need an infallible teaching meaning a body to affirm what is True. it is the HS that guides the Church into all Truths. but we cannot expect the HS to answer all the questions we have, that is wanting to know everything. i dont think God wants us to know everything. we must have faith even when we dont understand. St Peter said: “I know that Paul speaks things that is hard to understand, but believe him, for speaks Truth, he is a man of God.” the Church many times had to explain certain things through the ages due to heretical teachings that arose. she has to answer to heretical teachings as they appear. that can be anytime during our lives. now and days the Church is putting a lot of emphasis on the Eucharist because of the lack of faith that has permeated the minds of Catholics influenced by protestantism. just pray: Lord, i beg you open my eyes, my ears, and my mouth to the Truth, your Truth, i dont want to be deceived. pray all the time, until He answers you. pray with humility, lots of humility.
i dont understand what you mean by Tree of Life.

 

[racing59]

you are frustrated, i can see that. forgive me for not explain myself better. when i mentioned that the Apostles did not agree, i did not mean in matters of Faith adn Morals, i meant to say that they did not agree in certains things like St Paul having a problem with the other disciple because he left St Paul once. little things like that. but never about the Truth of the teachings of Jesus Christ. remember that Jesus said. I will send the HS and He will lead you into all Truth. believe this. we need an infallible teaching meaning a body to affirm what is True. it is the HS that guides the Church into all Truths. but we cannot expect the HS to answer all the questions we have, that is wanting to know everything. i dont think God wants us to know everything. we must have faith even when we dont understand. St Peter said: “I know that Paul speaks things that is hard to understand, but believe him, for speaks Truth, he is a man of God.” the Church many times had to explain certain things through the ages due to heretical teachings that arose. she has to answer to heretical teachings as they appear. that can be anytime during our lives. now and days the Church is putting a lot of emphasis on the Eucharist because of the lack of faith that has permeated the minds of Catholics influenced by protestantism. just pray: Lord, i beg you open my eyes, my ears, and my mouth to the Truth, your Truth, i dont want to be deceived. pray all the time, until He answers you. pray with humility, lots of humility.
i dont understand what you mean by Tree of Life.

I understand what you are saying about the Apostles not disagree on matters of Faith and morals.The Tree of Life is in Genesis 2:9 "Out of the ground the Lord made various trees to grow that were delightful to look at and good for food, with The Tree of Lifein the middle of the garden and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and bad. Not one, but two trees were in the middle of the garden, one the “Tree of Life” and the other the "Tree of Knowledge of good and bad. Revelation 22:1-2 Then the angel showed me the river of life giving water, sparkling like crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb.2) down the middle of the street,on either side of the river grew the Tree of Life that produce fruit twelve times a year once each month; the leaves of the trees serve as medicine for the nations. Revelation 22:14Blessed are they who wash their robes so to have the right to The Tree of Lifeand enter the city through the gatesSo I would say the Tree of Life is pretty darn important in these Scriptures don’t you think? Yet I have been persecuted for believing in it the same way Pope John Paul II did. If this is the Eucharist,the Tree of Life, then Revelation was fulfilled in the first century with the exception of the Second Coming,and the New Jerusalem is here on earth in the Church.If the Tree of Life is only for the Church in Heaven, then there are Sacraments in Heaven. See my point? Yet I have not found any of this a teaching of RCC. The Tree of Life is critical for my belief.

 

[rinnie]

The tree of Life is the Catholic Church. It is the medicine for our souls. Everything that you need is in the Church. Why? Because the Church is The Living Christ.

When you tie O.T. into N.T. you will see that the Catholic Church has all of the Sacraments. The Sacraments are outward sign instituted by Christ to give Grace.

When your soul in mortal danger it is the Tree of Life the Catholic Church that brings that soul which is dead back to life. We do this through the sacraments. One which is confession. When a person is sick we have the anointing of the sick. etc. All of the sacraments you will find in the Catholic Church.

Then of course you have the Eucharist. It is the bread of Life that give life to your soul. Yet a living Sacrament. That is why I think it is called the TREE of life because a tree has many branches, the Church has many Sacraments to heal your soul.

All of the sacraments are here to give life to the dead (soul that is in mortal danger). It is only through the Power of the Holy Spirit of the Church that Christ left to us. Remember his words I will not leave you orphans, I am with you always. until the end of time.

 

[racing59]

The tree of Life is the Catholic Church. It is the medicine for our souls. Everything that you need is in the Church. Why? Because the Church is The Living Christ.

When you tie O.T. into N.T. you will see that the Catholic Church has all of the Sacraments. The Sacraments are outward sign instituted by Christ to give Grace.

When your soul in mortal danger it is the Tree of Life the Catholic Church that brings that soul which is dead back to life. We do this through the sacraments. One which is confession. When a person is sick we have the anointing of the sick. etc. All of the sacraments you will find in the Catholic Church.

Then of course you have the Eucharist. It is the bread of Life that give life to your soul. Yet a living Sacrament. That is why I think it is called the TREE of life because a tree has many branches, the Church has many Sacraments to heal your soul.

All of the sacraments are here to give life to the dead (soul that is in mortal danger). It is only through the Power of the Holy Spirit of the Church that Christ left to us. Remember his words I will not leave you orphans, I am with you always. until the end of time.

This is a profound statement! Then you would have to say the “Tree of Life” or the Catholic Church was present in the Garden of Eden. So the first Church was not at Pentecost(But revealed to a New Covenant generation), but was formed from the beginning, was present in Eden, then blocked by Angels, until Jesus Christ died on the Cross. Revelation then is fulfilled, with the exception of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.Why is this not thought in RCC? Why is this not an infallible teaching. It makes total sense, but yet I have been persecuted by some RCC for even suggesting this. I don’t get it? The impact of the First Church being in Eden is astronomical. I just don’t understand why this is not an official teaching in RCC?

 

[wisdomseeker]

This is a profound statement! Then you would have to say the “Tree of Life” or the Catholic Church was present in the Garden of Eden. So the first Church was not at Pentecost(But revealed to a New Covenant generation), but was formed from the beginning, was present in Eden, then blocked by Angels, until Jesus Christ died on the Cross. Revelation then is fulfilled, with the exception of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.Why is this not thought in RCC? Why is this not an infallible teaching. It makes total sense, but yet I have been persecuted by some RCC for even suggesting this. I don’t get it? The impact of the First Church being in Eden is astronomical. I just don’t understand why this is not an official teaching in RCC?

do you think that non Catholic could deal with one more claim made by the CC. many times the CC does not speak very clear of herself. if rinnie is right about this, it is great that he can see that. i hope more people give more imput on this.

 

[rinnie]

This is a profound statement! Then you would have to say the “Tree of Life” or the Catholic Church was present in the Garden of Eden. So the first Church was not at Pentecost(But revealed to a New Covenant generation), but was formed from the beginning, was present in Eden, then blocked by Angels, until Jesus Christ died on the Cross. Revelation then is fulfilled, with the exception of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.Why is this not thought in RCC? Why is this not an infallible teaching. It makes total sense, but yet I have been persecuted by some RCC for even suggesting this. I don’t get it? The impact of the First Church being in Eden is astronomical. I just don’t understand why this is not an official teaching in RCC?

No you really coudn’t say that the tree of life was the Catholic Church because Jesus did not reveal himself in the church until the N.T. In the O.T. you must remember we really did not need the Catholic Church to give us eternal life because there was no death, remember. The first Church was for sure Pentecost, because that is when the Apostles received the Holy Spirit. Now the tree of Life in the ot there was no death.

But now since Adam and Eve sinned they brought forth to us death. Now Jesus Christ by the Power of the Holy SPirit and the Virgin Mary the new eve took away death. IT is through the Eucharist that you have eternal life. When you eat this bread and drink my blood you gain eternal life. Now the reason it is the CHurch because the Church is the living Christ. IT is there that you receive the Sacramants to gain eternal life.

But bottom line is in the O.T. there was no death to take away until sin entered. Now it is the Church Jesus Christ himself who took away death by his cross and ressurrection and dwells in the Catholic Church.

Now Jesus came to us through the Church to give us eternal life that was taken away because of sin. You have to remember sin did not exist until Adam and Eve sinned, remember?

I gotta go and watch my pens get their butts whipped around again. Not a happy week in Pittsburgh this week, But I promise I will find it in the CCC or my other scriptures. If not I have a date with Father on Sat. He is getting me and hubby into something with the church… Who knows what? But after the meeting I will ask him. Its okay I torture him all the time with questions. He tries to run from me but I tell him Father you can run but you can’t hide.

But the tree of life in the N. T. has got to be the Eucharist. And the church but will find out for sure.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Once again OTCA you go off half cocked without reading my post. I said I was a fan of Dr.Scott Hahn.Get over yourself,I’m over you.Many complain how rude you are, you yell at a blind man,because he can’t see the color you see. You need to grow up!
Bless you in the name of Jesus

Your very first sentence says you are Dr. Hahn. REREAD WHAT YOU WROTE in post #248. What the heck are you talking about? A blind man? My nephew is blind and I take that as an insult. Watch what you say.

 

[Hesychios]

This is a profound statement! Then you would have to say the “Tree of Life” or the Catholic Church was present in the Garden of Eden. So the first Church was not at Pentecost(But revealed to a New Covenant generation), but was formed from the beginning, was present in Eden, then blocked by Angels, until Jesus Christ died on the Cross. Revelation then is fulfilled, with the exception of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.Why is this not thought in RCC? Why is this not an infallible teaching. It makes total sense, but yet I have been persecuted by some RCC for even suggesting this. I don’t get it? The impact of the First Church being in Eden is astronomical. I just don’t understand why this is not an official teaching in RCC?

It is just poetic license.

In other words pious fiction.

 

[Hesychios]

Your very first sentence says you are Dr. Hahn. REREAD WHAT YOU WROTE in post #248. What the heck are you talking about? A blind man? My nephew is blind and I take that as an insult. Watch what you say.

Your posting style is toxic. It makes some of us rather anxious and it affects how we respond to you.

Please try to tone it back a little for the sake of harmony around here.

I am thinking of taking a sabbatical from this site for a while myself. I need a break.

Pax et Bonum,

 

[racing59]

No you really coudn’t say that the tree of life was the Catholic Church because Jesus did not reveal himself in the church until the N.T. In the O.T. you must remember we really did not need the Catholic Church to give us eternal life because there was no death, remember. The first Church was for sure Pentecost, because that is when the Apostles received the Holy Spirit. Now the tree of Life in the ot there was no death.

But now since Adam and Eve sinned they brought forth to us death. Now Jesus Christ by the Power of the Holy SPirit and the Virgin Mary the new eve took away death. IT is through the Eucharist that you have eternal life. When you eat this bread and drink my blood you gain eternal life. Now the reason it is the CHurch because the Church is the living Christ. IT is there that you receive the Sacramants to gain eternal life.

But bottom line is in the O.T. there was no death to take away until sin entered. Now it is the Church Jesus Christ himself who took away death by his cross and ressurrection and dwells in the Catholic Church.

Now Jesus came to us through the Church to give us eternal life that was taken away because of sin. You have to remember sin did not exist until Adam and Eve sinned, remember?

I gotta go and watch my pens get their butts whipped around again. Not a happy week in Pittsburgh this week, But I promise I will find it in the CCC or my other scriptures. If not I have a date with Father on Sat. He is getting me and hubby into something with the church… Who knows what? But after the meeting I will ask him. Its okay I torture him all the time with questions. He tries to run from me but I tell him Father you can run but you can’t hide.

But the tree of life in the N. T. has got to be the Eucharist. And the church but will find out for sure.

This is what I do not get. Adam and Eve had no sin before the fall, yet God provided them with the Tree of Life. Why? Your right they already had eternal life, but it is clear in Genesis 2:9. Genesis 3:24 the way to the Tree of life is blocked,Rev.22:1-2 the Tree of Life is brought up again, Rev.22:14 those who have washed their robes have a right to the Tree of Life. Just because Adam and Eve did not sin does not mean they didn’t have access to the Tree of Life.Jesus has always existed not in human form, but he has always existed, “I am the Alpha and the Omega”. The RCC teaching on Mary is she was born without sin because of pre( can’t remember) but you get the point I’m trying to make, then why couldn’t the same apply with the Church.Eph.5:22-35 tell us Christ and the Church are one and it is a great mystery.The Holy Spirit existed in OT he blessed the waters of the earth in Genesis 1, breath life into man, when Moses was on Sinai , the priest in camp broke into tongues by the Holy Spirit.How can it be one minute the Church is the Tree of Life in NT, but is not in the OT. The NT and OT are intertwined. Jesus always was there fore the Church always was, it is not a building, but the Wisdom of God Proverbs3:13-18 tell us this Proverbs 8:22-36 talks of Jesus Christ and Proverbs9:1 tells of the Church powered by the Holy Spirit.I’m sorry but I disagree, the Tree of Life in the OT and NT is the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ.Adam and Eve messed it up, Jesus Sanctified her again with his Blood unveiling her again to the world in Revelation. The very word Apocolypse is a Jewish wedding Ceremony which lasted for 7 days.The Church like Jesus Christ has always existed and the two are One.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

**Peace be with you guanophore; **Let us be clear here; I recognize all Catholic Rites in communion with the successor of Peter in the Popes as being under One Holy Catholic and Apostolic faith, this I profess in my profession of faith.

The authority that governs over the One Apostolic Catholic faith comes from Rome in the Pope and Magisterium of the Catholic faith, meaning all Catholic Bishops around the world in communion with the Bishop of Rome which is the Pope.

There is no Catholic Rite that overrules another (Vatican council II Orientalium Ecclesiarum). So your complaints here to me are misconstrued.

What I hear you complaining about is that "The world recognizes the “Roman Catholic Church” as being the center of Christianity to the World, and the Roman Catholic Pope is the Shepherd Jesus left in charge to feed and tend his sheep. Not your specific Rite, or any other Catholic Rite. So I am not offended of your ignorance of me, to insult by accusing me of being of double mindedness.

If you want the World not to recognize what God has made, then consult the almighty, what Jesus has done, he has done once and for all, If you want to challenge what “Rome has spoken” by all means peace be with you. The reality is the World does not see my Latin Rite or your specific Catholic Rite, One can only see what is visible, Peter in the Roman Catholic Church.

Please don’t bring anti Roman Catholic rhetoric from a separated brethren mindset of old.

What would help with this discussion if you could come up with a new name the World could recognize **all Valid Catholic Rites **without confusing The Church Jesus built upon Peter with other separated brethren (protestant) catholics. If you think naming our individual Catholic Rites is a solution, then you would be an advocate to chaos. If you think just naming the Church of Jesus Christ “Catholic” without naming the authority Jesus Christ established then the True Christianity falls into oblivion with all the others.

When the World seeks Jesus, and look to their view of the Roman Catholic Church, it is then when all the Valid Catholic Rites can be exposed to them.

If you have a better Catholic term other than what has been historically documented and recorded as Roman Catholic is founded by Jesus Christ, then lets here your wisdom. Until then, What is written is written.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I can tell you are not a Dr. Scott Hahn, that’s o.k., but I am. He makes a lot of sense.I’m not a fan of St.Augustine though he is the one that brought up the idea of infant limbo, it doesn’t make sense to me. I agree the Mass is eternal like the Heavenly liturgical worship.Although I’ve been told there is no Mass in Heaven by more than one priest.I do not agree that Revelation is past, present, and future(may be in her Revelation to different generations), but it is like Daniels Book was for the time of persecution during the reign of Antichous IV.Mark 13,Luke 21,Matthew 24 are clear. The are the little Apocalypse, Jesus last discourses on the Mount of Olives(Jesus last will and Testament be for he died). John omitted this from his Gospel and saved it for the Book of Revelation. Matthew 24:34 is clear “Amen, I say to you,This Generation will not pass until all things have taken place.” Jesus Is clearly talking of the destruction of the Temple in 70 a.d. Jesus died around 30 a.d. and a generation is 40 years(Israel wondered in the desert a Generation, 40 years). I disagree Revelation is a future event. A Beast coming and all that fear tactic and the seven hills being Rome.Seven in the number for Christ, Holy Spirit, and Covenants. Jerusalem is were Pentecost happened, the Holy Spirit. Mt. Moriah were Jerusalem was built on is the key in Salvation History. Just like Armagedon means Mt. Meggido not the end of the world. Meggido is were the last righteous king Josia was killed in the book of Kings.I don’t believe in Solo Scriptora, but the Bible says what it says, I read it in prayer with the Holy Spirit. Some thing has to make sense to me before I believe it.
Peace be with you

Blessings to you racing59, it is not hard to judge you love racing, by your call name and testimony here, especially your writing pact with fast topics of discussion. You have listed many a topic here in just one post. I am not as fast as you, these mysteries take much contemplation for me.

The past, present and future I mentioned is not how you and I think of the past present and future. What I was expressing was that the sacrificial Mass is eternal present once and for (key word) “all”. Jesus died for all those past present and future. I don’t know if your priest was Roman Catholic or not, but Just in case, if you ever doubt Catholicism, consult a Catechism. There you will find the Mass in Revelations described by biblical support from Revelation.

You have a lot of biblical knowledge racing59, God has blessed you. You gave me alot of information, was there a specific question anywhere? There are too many topics to address here from your comment. What is it that you don’t understand about the Catholic Church?

I was introduced to Dr.Scott Hahn in these forums, since then I have read some of his books. So I am well aware of him. I like the way he places his protestant evangelical enthusiasm into the mysteries of the body of Jesus Christ in the Catholic church.

If you ever have a doubt about a Catholic teaching outside these forums?, again just consult a Catechism of the Catholic Church.

And also with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

This is what I do not get. Adam and Eve had no sin before the fall, yet God provided them with the Tree of Life. Why? Your right they already had eternal life, but it is clear in Genesis 2:9. Genesis 3:24 the way to the Tree of life is blocked,Rev.22:1-2 the Tree of Life is brought up again, Rev.22:14 those who have washed their robes have a right to the Tree of Life. Just because Adam and Eve did not sin does not mean they didn’t have access to the Tree of Life.Jesus has always existed not in human form, but he has always existed, “I am the Alpha and the Omega”. The RCC teaching on Mary is she was born without sin because of pre( can’t remember) but you get the point I’m trying to make, then why couldn’t the same apply with the Church.Eph.5:22-35 tell us Christ and the Church are one and it is a great mystery.The Holy Spirit existed in OT he blessed the waters of the earth in Genesis 1, breath life into man, when Moses was on Sinai , the priest in camp broke into tongues by the Holy Spirit.How can it be one minute the Church is the Tree of Life in NT, but is not in the OT. The NT and OT are intertwined. Jesus always was there fore the Church always was, it is not a building, but the Wisdom of God Proverbs3:13-18 tell us this Proverbs 8:22-36 talks of Jesus Christ and Proverbs9:1 tells of the Church powered by the Holy Spirit.I’m sorry but I disagree, the Tree of Life in the OT and NT is the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ.Adam and Eve messed it up, Jesus Sanctified her again with his Blood unveiling her again to the world in Revelation. The very word Apocalypse is a Jewish wedding Ceremony which lasted for 7 days.The Church like Jesus Christ has always existed and the two are One.

Gabriel of 12;
Hello racing59, please allow me to interject a thought on this tree of life topic;

The tree of life is not per-say in the old testament, it is in paradise from the first creation. If God allowed Adam and Eve to eat of this Tree of life in paradise with their sin, they would have, (we would have) remained in that fallen state forever (eternally). Just as satan and all his fallen angels are eternally damned. But God already announced his protoevangelium before he removed the tree of life, announcing the New Eve (Mary) who would bare son in her virginity will conquer satan and renew the face of the earth.

The new Adam, Jesus an anti-type of the first Adam. Gives us the new Tree of life of which we must partake of in order to have eternal life. This Tree of life is the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. And we must eat of the fruit from this tree (crucifixion) which is his sacrificial body,blood soul and divinity which God promised us if we “eat of this bread from heaven we will have eternal life”, which is his sacrificial Eucharist in the Mass. Mary and Jesus reversed what the first Adam and Eve did.

If you believe that the Catholic Church is the body of Jesus Christ as scripture teaches, then it is from this Catholic body, that God teaches you, and gives you eternal life when you eat of the Tree of Life in Jesus body, blood soul and divinity from his Eucharist.

To believe that the Church was already in paradise in the tree of life, takes much contemplation and spiritual hurdles. Not to mention scripture contradicts this from the New Testament when the Church is founded upon “Rock” and the “Rock” is Jesus Christ. The Word of God was not made flesh yet to be the Church.

I am not sure you can use typology here to connect the Tree in creation as the same one in the New testament as far as an official teaching of the Catholic church. Maybe from a personal contemplative interpretation, I can see the depth of the Tree in paradise symbolizing the New Jerusalem to come in the Church “Triumphant” in communion through Jesus sacrifice uniting all God’s people with the Church militant on earth. As the prayer Jesus taught us “on earth as it is in heaven”. But this is not an official "Church teaching.

Maybe you can enlighten us of how you come to the conclusion that the tree in paradise is the same tree in the New testament? after Jesus “behold” I make all things new" in his new creation of the New and everlasting covenant.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

that is what we are talking about. you and me and others here know this but the world and protestants dont. so by refering to roman Catholic they are denying the CC all together as One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. my friend is a presbyterian and she is not dumb, and she also believe that the roman Catholic is just another denomination. somebody quietly is working against the CC spreading the lie that roman Catholic is just that another denomination. this fits with their idea that all believers is the Church and not just the CC.

Gabriel of 12;
You have just summarized all of what I have been stating, by you revealing this “NEW ANTI CATHOLIC SLOGAN THAT THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH IS A DENOMINATION”. What I hear from some who are silent anti Roman Catholic’s is a speech of ecumenism that plays (accepts) this new invention from anti Catholics, so as to be recognized individually as these anti catholic are individual church’s, instead of confronting it head on, as we did a year ago here on these forums, that the Catholic Church is One body in Jesus Christ built on the Rock of Peter the Bishop of the Roman Catholic Church, the Roman Pontiff.

What I have noticed on these forums, that topics have included to define two Catholic church’s one from the East and One from the West. What some are not aware of is that most of the Eastern Catholic Church is in communion with the Pope, those few Eastern orthodox Catholic Rites that are in schism with the authority of Peter, does not negate their Valid Catholicity as being in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Some think because some of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Rites are in schism with the Pope that we are totally isolated from all Eastern Catholic Rites. Education is needed, and the Catholic Church continues to be misrepresented and persecuted.

But you raise a good point of how anti catholics are using a suttle technique in terminology to deny the Catholic Church Jesus built upon Peter.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Gabriel of 12;
You have just summarized all of what I have been stating, by you revealing this “NEW ANTI CATHOLIC SLOGAN THAT THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH IS A DENOMINATION”. What I hear from some who are silent anti Roman Catholic’s is a speech of ecumenism that plays (accepts) this new invention from anti Catholics, so as to be recognized individually as these anti catholic are individual church’s, instead of confronting it head on, as we did a year ago here on these forums, that the Catholic Church is One body in Jesus Christ built on the Rock of Peter the Bishop of the Roman Catholic Church, the Roman Pontiff.

What I have noticed on these forums, that topics have included to define two Catholic church’s one from the East and One from the West. What some are not aware of is that most of the Eastern Catholic Church is in communion with the Pope, those few Eastern orthodox Catholic Rites that are in schism with the authority of Peter, does not negate their Valid Catholicity as being in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Some think because some of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Rites are in schism with the Pope that we are totally isolated from all Eastern Catholic Rites. Education is needed, and the Catholic Church continues to be misrepresented and persecuted.

But you raise a good point of how anti catholics are using a suttle technique in terminology to deny the Catholic Church Jesus built upon Peter.

thanks. i remember, not long ago, i got in trouble with the priest because the RCIA teacher was teaching on the Roman Catholic Church, just because i said the Church is not called roman but CC. somehow the word got to the priest. the priest told me i was putting down the Church. i was amazed by it. i never heard this one before. so, if i dont call roman Catholic Church, i am putting down the Church. very confusion to me. i always known the Church as Catholic Church.

 

[rinnie]

This is what I do not get. Adam and Eve had no sin before the fall, yet God provided them with the Tree of Life. Why? Your right they already had eternal life, but it is clear in Genesis 2:9. Genesis 3:24 the way to the Tree of life is blocked,Rev.22:1-2 the Tree of Life is brought up again, Rev.22:14 those who have washed their robes have a right to the Tree of Life. Just because Adam and Eve did not sin does not mean they didn’t have access to the Tree of Life.Jesus has always existed not in human form, but he has always existed, “I am the Alpha and the Omega”. The RCC teaching on Mary is she was born without sin because of pre( can’t remember) but you get the point I’m trying to make, then why couldn’t the same apply with the Church.Eph.5:22-35 tell us Christ and the Church are one and it is a great mystery.The Holy Spirit existed in OT he blessed the waters of the earth in Genesis 1, breath life into man, when Moses was on Sinai , the priest in camp broke into tongues by the Holy Spirit.How can it be one minute the Church is the Tree of Life in NT, but is not in the OT. The NT and OT are intertwined. Jesus always was there fore the Church always was, it is not a building, but the Wisdom of God Proverbs3:13-18 tell us this Proverbs 8:22-36 talks of Jesus Christ and Proverbs9:1 tells of the Church powered by the Holy Spirit.I’m sorry but I disagree, the Tree of Life in the OT and NT is the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ.Adam and Eve messed it up, Jesus Sanctified her again with his Blood unveiling her again to the world in Revelation. The very word Apocolypse is a Jewish wedding Ceremony which lasted for 7 days.The Church like Jesus Christ has always existed and the two are One.

See thats what I am saying racing. The O.T. does not call it the tree of life. Isn’t it the tree of knowledge, good and bad. I don’t see it the tree of life until the N.T. until death comes upon us. Thats why I believe the CHurch Jesus Christ is the tree of life. Because like I said I can’t see how we need the tree of life in beginning of time. Remember they talked to God. He communicated with them. That is the way it should have been paradise except for the sin that they committed. Then they were thrown out of paradise remember.

Now I believe that the Pope called the Eucharist the tree of life because of course it takes away death, and puts us back to paradise when we die in Christ. Thats why the CC has to be the tree of life because of all of the sacraments. The Catholic church holds every key to bring you back to God. Baptism, communion, confirmation, anointing of the sick. confession, see what I mean. There is no other church except the CC that can make these claims. Many church have some faith, but that is why the CC is the only one that has the fullness of the faith. Simply all of the Sacraments.

Now you are correct the CC church always is and always was. But only because of one thing. The Catholic Church is JESUS CHRIST. and JESUS CHRIST is God. Gotta go, but read Paul when he was persecuting the church. Read what Jesus said to him. Carefully read this part. Saul Saul why are you persecuting ME, Or was Saul Persecuting? Then when Saul says who are you what did Jesus answer. That will lead you to your answer.

Remember God did not reveal himself as Jesus Christ or the CHurch until the N.T. But in the O.T. he talked to Adam and Eve remember. They actually heard his voice. So bottom line same God, different ways of revealing himself!

 

[racing59]

Gabriel of 12;
Hello racing59, please allow me to interject a thought on this tree of life topic;

The tree of life is not per-say in the old testament, it is in paradise from the first creation. If God allowed Adam and Eve to eat of this Tree of life in paradise with their sin, they would have, (we would have) remained in that fallen state forever (eternally). Just as satan and all his fallen angels are eternally damned. But God already announced his protoevangelium before he removed the tree of life, announcing the New Eve (Mary) who would bare son in her virginity will conquer satan and renew the face of the earth.

The new Adam, Jesus an anti-type of the first Adam. Gives us the new Tree of life of which we must partake of in order to have eternal life. This Tree of life is the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. And we must eat of the fruit from this tree (crucifixion) which is his sacrificial body,blood soul and divinity which God promised us if we “eat of this bread from heaven we will have eternal life”, which is his sacrificial Eucharist in the Mass. Mary and Jesus reversed what the first Adam and Eve did.

If you believe that the Catholic Church is the body of Jesus Christ as scripture teaches, then it is from this Catholic body, that God teaches you, and gives you eternal life when you eat of the Tree of Life in Jesus body, blood soul and divinity from his Eucharist.

To believe that the Church was already in paradise in the tree of life, takes much contemplation and spiritual hurdles. Not to mention scripture contradicts this from the New Testament when the Church is founded upon “Rock” and the “Rock” is Jesus Christ. The Word of God was not made flesh yet to be the Church.

I am not sure you can use typology here to connect the Tree in creation as the same one in the New testament as far as an official teaching of the Catholic church. Maybe from a personal contemplative interpretation, I can see the depth of the Tree in paradise symbolizing the New Jerusalem to come in the Church “Triumphant” in communion through Jesus sacrifice uniting all God’s people with the Church militant on earth. As the prayer Jesus taught us “on earth as it is in heaven”. But this is not an official "Church teaching.

Maybe you can enlighten us of how you come to the conclusion that the tree in paradise is the same tree in the New testament? after Jesus “behold” I make all things new" in his new creation of the New and everlasting covenant.

Hi Gabriel 12, Sorry I get going so fast,but many other post have ask me questions on different subjects.I agree with most of what you have to say, with the exception of the Tree of Life only talked about in the first creation.My logic is this Moses was given the Pentateuch on Sinai along with a image of Heaven. The Tabernacle was a fore shadow of the Heavenly Tabernacle Jesus Christ.There is no time in Heaven,Jesus Christ has existed pat, present, and future.We humans take time liner.With that being said I contend the Garden of Eden was a Paradise, a Heaven of sorts if you will. The Shekina of the Lord (God’s Glory Cloud same as Sinai) dwelt there. Adam and Eve did talk to God. I further contend that God put the Tree of Life there because he knew Adam and Eve would fall. He gave them a choice,The Tree of Knowledge or the Tree of Life.I further contend after their sin it was Adams reaction to God when God ask, “Adam were are you” it was not physical, but spiritual.Genesis 3:12 is Adams response of passing the buck back to God,"That Women You Gave Me"blaming God for their sin.They could have reconciled themselves to God by asking forgiveness and eat from the Tree of Life and have Eternal Life again in a Spiritual sense.No Adam had to blame God for Eve and Say it was all God’s fault. It is clear in the Scriptures I have given the Tree of Life was important part of God’s plan, so he could be Physically Present with his Holy Children.If the Tree of Life was the Eucharist, then the Church had to be there too.

 

[racing59]

See thats what I am saying racing. The O.T. does not call it the tree of life. Isn’t it the tree of knowledge, good and bad. I don’t see it the tree of life until the N.T. until death comes upon us. Thats why I believe the CHurch Jesus Christ is the tree of life. Because like I said I can’t see how we need the tree of life in beginning of time. Remember they talked to God. He communicated with them. That is the way it should have been paradise except for the sin that they committed. Then they were thrown out of paradise remember.

Now I believe that the Pope called the Eucharist the tree of life because of course it takes away death, and puts us back to paradise when we die in Christ. Thats why the CC has to be the tree of life because of all of the sacraments. The Catholic church holds every key to bring you back to God. Baptism, communion, confirmation, anointing of the sick. confession, see what I mean. There is no other church except the CC that can make these claims. Many church have some faith, but that is why the CC is the only one that has the fullness of the faith. Simply all of the Sacraments.

Now you are correct the CC church always is and always was. But only because of one thing. The Catholic Church is JESUS CHRIST. and JESUS CHRIST is God. Gotta go, but read Paul when he was persecuting the church. Read what Jesus said to him. Carefully read this part. Saul Saul why are you persecuting ME, Or was Saul Persecuting? Then when Saul says who are you what did Jesus answer. That will lead you to your answer.

Remember God did not reveal himself as Jesus Christ or the CHurch until the N.T. But in the O.T. he talked to Adam and Eve remember. They actually heard his voice. So bottom line same God, different ways of revealing himself!

Hi rinnie, Yes you I agree God reintroduce the Church to the world in Jesus Christ. If the Eucharist is the Tree of Life, then the Euchrist and the Church were in Eden. Adam and Eve were made in the image and likeness of God, they would of been the mystical body of Jesus Christ.There is no time in Heaven and Jesus has always existed there, The Word of God, The Alpha and Omega!The Tree of Life existed in the OT,but the way was blocked until Christ came done and died on the Cross for our sins.I contend if Adam and Eve would have reconciled themselves to God, instead of passing the buck,the Tree of Life would not have been blocked. These are some Scriptures you find the Tree of Life in OT:
Genesis 2:9 “…with the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge in the middle of the Garden.” Two trees in the center of the Garden
Proverbs 3:13-18 “Happy the man who finds Wisdom, the man who gains understanding14).For Her profit is better than the profit in silver and better than Gold is Her revenue;15) She is more precious than corals,and and none of your choice possessions compare with Her.
16)Long life is in Herright hand, in Herleft is riches and honor; 17)Herways are pleasant ways, and herpaths are peace;
18) Sheis a Tree of Life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who holds her fast.” Wisdom is the Tree of Life. Sounds like the Church to me.
Proverbs9:1 Wisdom has built Her House.She has set up her Seven Columns(7 pillars).Read the rest of Proverbs chapter 9 on the banquets. I contend once again the Tree of Life is the Church and the fruit of her is the Eucharist. She has been there from the beginning in Eden, blocked, then reintroduced through the World by Jesus Christ made flesh. Moses’ Tabernacle, Solomons Temple were an echo or shadow of her.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hi rinnie, Yes you I agree God reintroduce the Church to the world in Jesus Christ. If the Eucharist is the Tree of Life, then the Euchrist and the Church were in Eden. Adam and Eve were made in the image and likeness of God, they would of been the mystical body of Jesus Christ.There is no time in Heaven and Jesus has always existed there, The Word of God, The Alpha and Omega!The Tree of Life existed in the OT,but the way was blocked until Christ came done and died on the Cross for our sins.I contend if Adam and Eve would have reconciled themselves to God, instead of passing the buck,the Tree of Life would not have been blocked. These are some Scriptures you find the Tree of Life in OT:
Genesis 2:9 “…with the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge in the middle of the Garden.” Two trees in the center of the Garden
Proverbs 3:13-18 “Happy the man who finds Wisdom, the man who gains understanding14).For Her profit is better than the profit in silver and better than Gold is Her revenue;15) She is more precious than corals,and and none of your choice possessions compare with Her.
16)Long life is in Herright hand, in Herleft is riches and honor; 17)Herways are pleasant ways, and herpaths are peace;
18) Sheis a Tree of Life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who holds her fast.” Wisdom is the Tree of Life. Sounds like the Church to me.
Proverbs9:1 Wisdom has built Her House.She has set up her Seven Columns(7 pillars).Read the rest of Proverbs chapter 9 on the banquets. I contend once again the Tree of Life is the Church and the fruit of her is the Eucharist. She has been there from the beginning in Eden, blocked, then reintroduced through the World by Jesus Christ made flesh. Moses’ Tabernacle, Solomons Temple were an echo or shadow of her.

doesnt the CC says that the Church here on earth does the same thing that the Church in Heaven does? the Church in Heaven joins us at Mass in the worship of God. i have been hearing this for a long time.

 

[racing59]

Racing59,
I wanted you to know that your post here made a great deal of sense, and I don’t think the responses to it adequately addressed the points you made. I think you have done a lot of deep thinking and reading, and that you are “on the right track” (double meaning intended). If you would like to discuss your ideas on this topic further, I would enjoy that. How much reading do you do in the books of Isaiah and Hosea?

Hi Parker D, I’m sorry I did not respond to you sooner, but I’ve been busy answering these post and working on my race car. I would love to discuss all this with you some time. I try to read all of Scripture OT and NT. They are so intertwined you can’t have the NT without the OT and can’t have the OT without the NT. Scriptures is like a rope that combines all.
Peace