The First Church

[AndrewJMason]

I believe that the Roman Catholic church was the first and true church of CHRIST. I know they’re not the first church, if I misunderstood the question, please correct me, sir. The scripture I posted obviously shows Jesus talking to Peter about starting his church(The Roman Catholic Church) and that’s real proof that the Catholic Church was the first CHRISTIAN church.

 

[Protestant101]

I believe that the Roman Catholic church was the first and true church of CHRIST. I know they’re not the first church, if I misunderstood the question, please correct me, sir. The scripture I posted obviously shows Jesus talking to Peter about starting his church(The Roman Catholic Church) and that’s real proof that the Catholic Church was the first CHRISTIAN church.

One of my views on that scripture is that was earmarking a CONTINUANCE of the Church; rather than the beginning of same.

 

[elvisman]

How have I hijacked the original thread? Should I start a new thread entitled “The First Church”?

Indeed. And those authoritative men were of that particular church. They weren’t “Rome’s subjects” or bishops beholden to Rome rather than their own districts.

Each district had its own Church, in communion with Rome to be sure, just like in Anglicans there is communion with the Archbishop of Cantebury. But the bishop of Rome could never tell them a) what to believe, b) what the truth was, and c) who their bishops were going to be.

I think that your problem is the same as many - if not most Protestants, in that you have a faulty understanding of “Church”.

The Church is ONE - just as God is ONE. When the Bible speaks of the Church at Corinth or Ephesus or Thessolonica - it is the SAME Church. The only difference is the venue - the location. It is the same today in Christ’s Church. We have Dioceses with parishes. These are NOT different Churches, simply different locations of the ONE trut Church.

Unfortunatley, the Protestant Revold splintered the unity that Christ prayed for in John 17. It created many “churches” - which, as “Dominus Iesus” points out, are not really churches in the full sense of the word but “ecclesial communitues” in need of returning home to full communion with THE Church.

To fully understand what Christ meant about establishing his Church - you need to accept the fact that there can only be ONE that is UNIFIED - not splintered . . .

 

[SteveVH]

I am not so sure that these quotes actually PROVE anything definitive about what or who comprised of 'the first Church; but they do establish the nature of Roman Catholic claims thereof. Claims, to me, are different than evidence.

It is certainly evidence of what the early Christian Church believed. And what the early Church believed is what the Catholic Church still believes today. Just what evidence will satisfy you?

When you read letters from early Americans and the cause for which they were fighting do you think fighting for freedom and liberty was just a claim or do you think this is what they may have believed?

Better yet, please provide evidence from the early Church that refutes these “claims”, as you call them.

 

[elvisman]

I am not so sure that these quotes actually PROVE anything definitive about what or who comprised of 'the first Church; but they do establish the nature of Roman Catholic claims thereof. Claims, to me, are different than evidence.

**Actually - one perfect example of Papal Primacy was in the Letter of Clement - a 1st century document. It was written to the Church in Corinth regarding some presbyters that had been ousted. The people had no authority to do this and Clement ordered them to reinstate the presbyters. **

It was written while the Apostle John was still alive - yet he was not appealed to in settling the matter because Clement was the Bishop of Rome - the Pope.

 

[Nicea325]

I am not so sure that these quotes actually PROVE anything definitive about what or who comprised of 'the first Church; but they do establish the nature of Roman Catholic claims thereof. Claims, to me, are different than evidence.

And yet you have not presented anything proving otherwise. The only thing I have read are the same old distortions,misconceptions, and re-inventing history to go against the Catholic Church. Either provide something worth our time or go and spread the lies somewhere else.

 

[Sherry_G]

One of my views on that scripture is that was earmarking a CONTINUANCE of the Church; rather than the beginning of same.

As you say here…one of your views…

 

[Protestant101]

**I think that your **problem is the same as many - if not most Protestants, in that you have a faulty understanding of “Church”.

The Church is ONE - just as God is ONE.

It is not splintered at all. “One” is used quite often in the Bible; in a collective sense, as in Three Persons= 1 God; likewise, all the denominations = one Church.

 

[Protestant101]

And yet you have not presented anything proving otherwise. The only thing I have read are the same old distortions,misconceptions, and re-inventing history to go against the Catholic Church. Either provide something worth our time or go and spread the lies somewhere else.

What you call “lies” is the opposite. This forum says it is for the purpose of "comparing/contrasting our respective beliefs. That is all I have done.

 

[Protestant101]

As you say here…one of your views…

Kind of like “one of your views,” eh?

 

[Deconi]

Kind of like “one of your views,” eh?

We all have ‘views.’

The CC can PHYSICALLY trace her views BACK to Christ.

Yours, well, I guess it’s to where ever you may say it goes. Problems arise when you get past this century!

Then you’ll probably cite The Holy Book, which as it happens, the CC gave ‘you’ back in the 400s

 

[Protestant101]

We all have ‘views.’

The CC can PHYSICALLY trace her views BACK to Christ.

Yours, well, I guess it’s to where ever you may say it goes. Problems arise when you get past this century!

Then you’ll probably cite The Holy Book, which as it happens, the CC gave ‘you’ back in the 400s

But this is what I am trying to find out. You say you can “physically” prove that the Roman Catholic Church is “the first church;” so I am asking you to show us where it says “Roman Catholic” in the Bible.

The Church has always been collectively a group of churches to make one church, like Father, Son & Holy Spirit make one God.

The only thing you can show is that The Roman Catholic Denomination was one of the early NT churches.

 

[Deconi]

But this is what I am trying to find out. You say you can “physically” prove that the Roman Catholic Church is “the first church;” so I am asking you to show us where it says “Roman Catholic” in the Bible.

The Church has always been collectively a group of churches to make one church, like Father, Son & Holy Spirit make one God.

The only thing you can show is that The Roman Catholic Denomination was one of the early NT churches.

Put it this way, if I wanted to, I can trace the pedigree of the my Faith back to Antioch; or Jerusalem, or Constinople, Corinth, or any number of places the Christian gathered in the first century! The ‘problem’ is, I find that they all sought and looked to ‘Rome’ for guidance or settlement of disputes about Christian doctrine!

You’ve been here long enough to have seen some of that evidence!

How about you try and trace whatever Faith gathering you follow to at least, the very least, Martin Luther?

I can take it from there!

 

[Deconi]

Put it this way, if I wanted to, I can trace the pedigree of the my Faith back to Antioch; or Jerusalem, or Constantinople, Corinth, or any number of places the Christian gathered in the first century! The ‘problem’ is, I find that they all sought and looked to ‘Rome’ for guidance or settlement of disputes about Christian doctrine!

You’ve been here long enough to have seen some of that evidence!

How about you try and trace whatever Faith gathering you follow to at least, the very least, Martin Luther?

I can take it from there!

 

[confusedius]

We all have ‘views.’

The CC can PHYSICALLY trace her views BACK to Christ.

Prove it. You believe it, you have been told it. But is there not a huge gap of several hundred years where absolutely no evidence exists to support your contention?

Or, are you playing a word game with “views” in which case even my “view” goes back as well…

james

 

[Deconi]

Prove it. You believe it, you have been told it. But is there not a huge gap of several hundred years where absolutely no evidence exists to support your contention?

Or, are you playing a word game with “views” in which case even my “view” goes back as well…

james

To keep it simple;

Jesus makes Simon the Cephas/Peter/Rock upon which He will build His Church. Not A church, but His Church. (His words, not mine) Matt:16.

1.St. Peter (32-67)
2.St. Linus (67-76)
3.St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
4.St. Clement I (88-97)
5.St. Evaristus (97-105)
6.St. Alexander I (105-115)
7.St. Sixtus I (115-125) – also called Xystus I
8.St. Telesphorus (125-136)
9.St. Hyginus (136-140)
10.St. Pius I (140-155)
11.St. Anicetus (155-166)
12.St. Soter (166-175)
13.St. Eleutherius (175-189)
14.St. Victor I (189-199)
15.St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
16.St. Callistus I (217-22)
17.St. Urban I (222-30)
18.St. Pontain (230-35)
19.St. Anterus (235-36)
20.St. Fabian (236-50)
21.St. Cornelius (251-53)
22.St. Lucius I (253-54)
23.St. Stephen I (254-257)
24.St. Sixtus II (257-258)
25.St. Dionysius (260-268)
26.St. Felix I (269-274)
27.St. Eutychian (275-283)
28.St. Caius (283-296) – also called Gaius
29.St. Marcellinus (296-304)
30.St. Marcellus I (308-309)
31.St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
32.St. Miltiades (311-14)
33.St. Sylvester I (314-35)
34.St. Marcus (336)
35.St. Julius I (337-52)
36.Liberius (352-66)
37.St. Damasus I (366-83)
38.St. Siricius (384-99)
39.St. Anastasius I (399-401)
40.St. Innocent I (401-17)
41.St. Zosimus (417-18)
42.St. Boniface I (418-22)
43.St. Celestine I (422-32)
44.St. Sixtus III (432-40)
45.St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
46.St. Hilarius (461-68)
47.St. Simplicius (468-83)
48.St. Felix III (II) (483-92)
49.St. Gelasius I (492-96)
50.Anastasius II (496-98)
51.St. Symmachus (498-514)
52.St. Hormisdas (514-23)
53.St. John I (523-26)
54.St. Felix IV (III) (526-30)
55.Boniface II (530-32)
56.John II (533-35)
57.St. Agapetus I (535-36) – also called Agapitus I
58.St. Silverius (536-37)
59.Vigilius (537-55)
60.Pelagius I (556-61)
61.John III (561-74)
62.Benedict I (575-79)
63.Pelagius II (579-90)
64.St. Gregory I (the Great) (590-604)
65.Sabinian (604-606)
66.Boniface III (607)
67.St. Boniface IV (608-15)
68.St. Deusdedit (Adeodatus I) (615-18)
69.Boniface V (619-25)
70.Honorius I (625-38)
71.Severinus (640)
72.John IV (640-42)
73.Theodore I (642-49)
74.St. Martin I (649-55)
75.St. Eugene I (655-57)
76.St. Vitalian (657-72)
77.Adeodatus (II) (672-76)
78.Donus (676-78)
79.St. Agatho (678-81)
80.St. Leo II (682-83)
81.St. Benedict II (684-85)
82.John V (685-86)
83.Conon (686-87)
84.St. Sergius I (687-701)
85.John VI (701-05)
86.John VII (705-07)
87.Sisinnius (708)
88.Constantine (708-15)
89.St. Gregory II (715-31)
90.St. Gregory III (731-41)
91.St. Zachary (741-52)
92.Stephen II (752) – Because he died before being consecrated, some lists (including the Vatican’s official list) omit him.
93.Stephen III (752-57)
94.St. Paul I (757-67)
95.Stephen IV (767-72)
96.Adrian I (772-95)
97.St. Leo III (795-816)
98.Stephen V (816-17)
99.St. Paschal I (817-24)
100.Eugene II (824-27)
101.Valentine (827)
102.Gregory IV (827-44)
103.Sergius II (844-47)
104.St. Leo IV (847-55)
105.Benedict III (855-58)
106.St. Nicholas I (the Great) (858-67)
107.Adrian II (867-72)
108.John VIII (872-82)
109.Marinus I (882-84)
110.St. Adrian III (884-85)
111.Stephen VI (885-91)
112.Formosus (891-96)
113.Boniface VI (896)
114.Stephen VII (896-97)
115.Romanus (897)
116.Theodore II (897)
117.John IX (898-900)
118.Benedict IV (900-03)
119.Leo V (903)
120.Sergius III (904-11)

…TBC

 

[Deconi]

121.Anastasius III (911-13)
122.Lando (913-14)
123.John X (914-28)
124.Leo VI (928)
125.Stephen VIII (929-31)
126.John XI (931-35)
127.Leo VII (936-39)
128.Stephen IX (939-42)
129.Marinus II (942-46)
130.Agapetus II (946-55)
131.John XII (955-63)
132.Leo VIII (963-64)
133.Benedict V (964)
134.John XIII (965-72)
135.Benedict VI (973-74)
136.Benedict VII (974-83)
137.John XIV (983-84)
138.John XV (985-96)
139.Gregory V (996-99)
140.Sylvester II (999-1003)
141.John XVII (1003)
142.John XVIII (1003-09)
143.Sergius IV (1009-12)
144.Benedict VIII (1012-24)
145.John XIX (1024-32)
146.Benedict IX (1032-45) Benedict IX appears on this list three separate times, because he was twice removed and restored (see below)
147.Sylvester III (1045) – Considered by some to be an antipope
148.Benedict IX (1045)
149.Gregory VI (1045-46)
150.Clement II (1046-47)
151.Benedict IX (1047-48)
152.Damasus II (1048)
153.St. Leo IX (1049-54)
154.Victor II (1055-57)
155.Stephen X (1057-58)
156.Nicholas II (1058-61)
157.Alexander II (1061-73)
158.St. Gregory VII (1073-85)
159.Blessed Victor III (1086-87)
160.Blessed Urban II (1088-99)
161.Paschal II (1099-1118)
162.Gelasius II (1118-19)
163.Callistus II (1119-24)
164.Honorius II (1124-30)
165.Innocent II (1130-43)
166.Celestine II (1143-44)
167.Lucius II (1144-45)
168.Blessed Eugene III (1145-53)
169.Anastasius IV (1153-54)
170.Adrian IV (1154-59)
171.Alexander III (1159-81)
172.Lucius III (1181-85)
173.Urban III (1185-87)
174.Gregory VIII (1187)
175.Clement III (1187-91)
176.Celestine III (1191-98)
177.Innocent III (1198-1216)
178.Honorius III (1216-27)
179.Gregory IX (1227-41)
180.Celestine IV (1241)
181.Innocent IV (1243-54)
182.Alexander IV (1254-61)
183.Urban IV (1261-64)
184.Clement IV (1265-68)
185.Blessed Gregory X (1271-76)
186.Blessed Innocent V (1276)
187.Adrian V (1276)
188.John XXI (1276-77)
189.Nicholas III (1277-80)
190.Martin IV (1281-85)
191.Honorius IV (1285-87)
192.Nicholas IV (1288-92)
193.St. Celestine V (1294)
194.Boniface VIII (1294-1303)
195.Blessed Benedict XI (1303-04)
196.Clement V (1305-14)
197.John XXII (1316-34)
198.Benedict XII (1334-42)
199.Clement VI (1342-52)
200.Innocent VI (1352-62)
201.Blessed Urban V (1362-70)
202.Gregory XI (1370-78)
203.Urban VI (1378-89)
204.Boniface IX (1389-1404)
205.Innocent VII (1404-06)
206.Gregory XII (1406-15)
207.Martin V (1417-31)
208.Eugene IV (1431-47)
209.Nicholas V (1447-55)
210.Callistus III (1455-58)
211.Pius II (1458-64)
212.Paul II (1464-71)
213.Sixtus IV (1471-84)
214.Innocent VIII (1484-92)
215.Alexander VI (1492-1503)
216.Pius III (1503)
217.Julius II (1503-13)
218.Leo X (1513-21)
219.Adrian VI (1522-23)
220.Clement VII (1523-34)
221.Paul III (1534-49)
222.Julius III (1550-55)
223.Marcellus II (1555)
224.Paul IV (1555-59)
225.Pius IV (1559-65)
226.St. Pius V (1566-72)
227.Gregory XIII (1572-85)
228.Sixtus V (1585-90)
229.Urban VII (1590)
230.Gregory XIV (1590-91)
231.Innocent IX (1591)
232.Clement VIII (1592-1605)
233.Leo XI (1605)
234.Paul V (1605-21)
235.Gregory XV (1621-23)
236.Urban VIII (1623-44)
237.Innocent X (1644-55)
238.Alexander VII (1655-67)
239.Clement IX (1667-69)
240.Clement X (1670-76)
241.Blessed Innocent XI (1676-89)
242.Alexander VIII (1689-91)
243.Innocent XII (1691-1700)
244.Clement XI (1700-21)
245.Innocent XIII (1721-24)
246.Benedict XIII (1724-30)
247.Clement XII (1730-40)
248.Benedict XIV (1740-58)
249.Clement XIII (1758-69)
250.Clement XIV (1769-74)
251.Pius VI (1775-99)
252.Pius VII (1800-23)
253.Leo XII (1823-29)
254.Pius VIII (1829-30)
255.Gregory XVI (1831-46)
256.Blessed Pius IX (1846-78)
257.Leo XIII (1878-1903)
258.St. Pius X (1903-14)
259.Benedict XV (1914-22)
260.Pius XI (1922-39)
261.Pius XII (1939-58)
262.Blessed John XXIII (1958-63)
263.Paul VI (1963-78)
264.John Paul I (1978)
265.John Paul II (1978-2005)
266.Benedict XVI (2005—)

NOTE three things:

You may not have seen this before but it isn’t hidden. Google is your friend and any public library is your conclusion.

No.37 to 40 - were involved in the Canonisation of the books you know as “Bible”

Not all on the list are known as Saints…for good reason.

 

[Protestant101]

Put it this way, if I wanted to, I can trace the pedigree of the my Faith back to Antioch; or Jerusalem, or Constinople, Corinth, or any number of places the Christian gathered in the first century! The ‘problem’ is, I find that they all sought and looked to ‘Rome’ for guidance or settlement of disputes about Christian doctrine!

You’ve been here long enough to have seen some of that evidence!

How about you try and trace whatever Faith gathering you follow to at least, the very least, Martin Luther?

I can take it from there!

Well; you just have to bear in mind my friend that because I have been a forum member here for a long time - it doesn’t always follow that I always pay attention!

You just highlighted one of my main points and that is, you can only trace your denomination to the 1st centurey. What I am saying is that the Church (collectively all denominations) has existed in one form or another since well before the first century.

From my understanding of your view point; am I correct in saying that your major evidence is “the Church Fathers?” I would be interested to read the Catechism where it talks about this. Would you happen to know exactly where I could find it in the CCC?

 

[Protestant101]

To keep it simple;

Jesus makes Simon the Cephas/Peter/Rock upon which He will build His Church. Not A church, but His Church. (His words, not mine) Matt:16.

What is your source for this list of Popes?

 

[Deconi]

Well; you just have to bear in mind my friend that because I have been a forum member here for a long time - it doesn’t always follow that I always pay attention!

Dunno if that’s a good thing, Matey. I still sense you’re ‘fishing’ for
something other than the truth about the CC.

You just highlighted one of my main points and that is, you can only trace your denomination to the 1st centurey. What I am saying is that the Church (collectively all denominations) has existed in one form or another since well before the first century.

You mean there was a Christian church before Christ? B.C?

My point though, as demonstrated and you agree, is that the CC can physically trace Herself back to Christ, Who happens to BE the ‘beginning’ of the first century, literally.

From my understanding of your view point; am I correct in saying that your major evidence is “the Church Fathers?” I would be interested to read the Catechism where it talks about this. Would you happen to know exactly where I could find it in the CCC?

Read the Catechism for what it may teach you, not for verification of this and that.

The ECFs are NOT major evidence. They were all Catholics! Rather, they are witnesses for and to, what the CC continue today.

What is your source for this list of Popes?

Where does one go for a list of the American presidents? England? Iraq? Canada?
Sure, all may have list or copy of the list, but who do you expect to have the most accurate list?