The First Church

[Protestant101]

Dunno if that’s a good thing, Matey. I still sense you’re ‘fishing’ for
something other than the truth about the CC.

A lot of people have said this kind of thing to me over the years; but it makes me wonder how sincere such ones are in discussing truth. Maybe they just want to appear “right?”

You should just relax that kind of thinking. I just happen to enjoy discussing and contrasting my views with others. people call that all kinds of things…

 

[confusedius]

NOTE three things:

You may not have seen this before but it isn’t hidden. Google is your friend and any public library is your conclusion.

No.37 to 40 - were involved in the Canonisation of the books you know as “Bible”

Not all on the list are known as Saints…for good reason.

You must love the “begats” sections of the KJV. But, surely you must agree that a written list would not be considered “proof”, no?

james

 

[JustaServant]

What I am saying is that the Church (collectively all denominations) has existed in one form or another since well before the first century.

Documentation please…

 

[Michael1978]

You just highlighted one of my main points and that is, you can only trace your denomination to the 1st centurey. What I am saying is that the Church (collectively all denominations) has existed in one form or another since well before the first century.

Wow. Please provide any historical evidence to support this statement.

 

[Deconi]

You must love the “begats” sections of the KJV. But, surely you must agree that a written list would not be considered “proof”, no?

james

If you mean Catholic Bible (73books) “begats” KJV (66books), yep. I see it!

‘Proof’? So an accurate list of American presidents, Monarchs of England, France etc., is NOT ‘proof’ for you?

 

[ClamDigger]

I would be interested to read any Catholic literature such as the Catechism or other official publications which explain why Roman Catholics see themselves as the first Church. I am not sure exactly where to look so I thought I would try posting this subject to investigate. Thanks to all who participate!

Who founded the Catholic Church? We can find founders for every other church in existence, but not the Catholic Church. Seems simple enough to me?

 

[Sherry_G]

But this is what I am trying to find out. You say you can “physically” prove that the Roman Catholic Church is “the first church;” so I am asking you to show us where it says “Roman Catholic” in the Bible.

The Church has always been collectively a group of churches to make one church, like Father, Son & Holy Spirit make one God.

The only thing you can show is that The Roman Catholic Denomination was one of the early NT churches.

Where in the Bible do you see Ellen G White and her ilk coming along centuries after Jesus Christ walked on the earth and gave us His Church and Peter the keys?

 

[elvisman]

It is not splintered at all. “One” is used quite often in the Bible; in a collective sense, as in Three Persons= 1 God; likewise, all the denominations = one Church.

The Church is NOT splintered? The legacy of Protestantism has been nothing BUT constant splintering. Just look at the beliefs of the early “Reformers” and how their beliefs have morphed into beliefs that THEY would have rejected.

Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
**Some believe that some were predestined for hell, while others do not. **
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

Do’t sit there with a straight face and tell me that the Church didn’t splinter. You splintered yourself right out of it.

 

[elvisman]

But this is what I am trying to find out. You say you can “physically” prove that the Roman Catholic Church is “the first church;” so I am asking you to show us where it says “Roman Catholic” in the Bible.

**No, because it is not called the “Roman” Catholic Church. It is simply the Catholic Church. The term “Roman” Catholic was born out of the Church of England in the 16th century and was used to ****differentiate ****between the “Catholic” Church of England and the Catholic Church of Rome. *****Study ***your history, friend.

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As for “Catholic Church, open your GREEK Bible and go to Acts 9:31, where it says:
Acts 9:31****
**h men oun ekklhsia kaq olhs ths ioudaias kai galilaias kai samareias eicen eirhnhn oikodomoumenh kai poreuomenh tw fobw tou kuriou kai th paraklhsei tou agiou pneumatos eplhquneto **

---

The words “Ekklesia kath olos” is translated as “The Catholic Church”.

---

**While we’re at it - can you tell me where the Bible mentions soul sleep? Withholding Baptism for infants? **Asking Jesus into your Heart? Total Depravity of Man? We must have a “Personal Relationship with Christ”? Accepting Christ as Lord and Savior? Being “Covered with the righteousness of Christ”? Limited Atonement? Imputed righteousness? Altar Calls?, “Once saved, always saved”? Infant Dedications?

---

**Don’t tell me that simply because the NAME of the Church isn’t in the Bible, it’s not true – the TERM Catholic Church IS **

The Church has always been collectively a group of churches to make one church, like Father, Son & Holy Spirit make one God. The only thing you can show is that The Roman Catholic Denomination was one of the early NT churches.

Like I said before – you don’t have a real understanding of “Church”. The early Church was NOT made up of a group Churches. They were in different locales – but they were the SAME Church.
WRONG**. “Denominations” are a Protestant aberration . . .**

 

[Gianna_MarieJMJ]

But this is what I am trying to find out. You say you can “physically” prove that the Roman Catholic Church is “the first church;” so I am asking you to show us where it says “Roman Catholic” in the Bible.

The Church has always been collectively a group of churches to make one church, like Father, Son & Holy Spirit make one God.

The only thing you can show is that The Roman Catholic Denomination was one of the early NT churches.​

Well, as I can see you are a Seventh Day Adventist. Your church was founded in the year 1863 by ( One of its founders) Ellen G. White. How exactly do you know that YOUR church…one of the many 33,000 Protestant Demoninations is the true Church? It obviously isn’t the first church for it wasn’t started until almost 1900 years after Christ was here.
Anyways, Jesus stated to Peter is Matt:16 ’ And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." First of all, he didn’t say ’ Churches’. He said ‘Church’. And hey! It look’s like the Catholic Church is the only Church that can be traced back from that date…and it’s still hanging in there ! For No ’ HUMAN MAN OR WOMAN’ was the founder of the Catholic Church, Jesus was.

And if you would be so kind…please take a gander at these quotes from the most awesome early church fathers…

 

[Gianna_MarieJMJ]

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

“[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished.” Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).

“…to be in honour however with the Catholic Church for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline…one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul’s name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church…But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).

“[N]or does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this [fancied being], a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10,3 (A.D. 180).

“For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago,–in the reign of Antoninus for the most part,–and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled.” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against Heretics, 22,30 (A.D. 200).

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).

“But for those who say, There was when He was not, and, Before being born He was not, and that He came into existence out of nothing, or who assert that the Son of God is of a different hypostasis or substance…these the Catholic and apostolic Church anathematizes.” Creed of Nicea (A.D. 325).

“Concerning those who call themselves Cathari, if they come over to the Catholic and Apostolic Church, the great and holy Synod decrees that they who are ordained shall continue as they are in the clergy. But it is before all things necessary that they should profess in writing that they will observe and follow the dogmas of the Catholic and Apostolic Church; in particular that they will communicate with persons who have been twice married, and with those who having lapsed in persecution have had a period [of penance] laid upon them, and a time [of restoration] fixed so that in all things they will follow the dogmas of the Catholic Church…” Council of Nicaea I (A.D. 325).

“Concerning this Holy Catholic Church Paul writes to Timothy, ‘That thou mayest know haw thou oughtest to behave thyself in the House of God, which is the Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth’” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,18:25(A.D. 350).

 

[Gianna_MarieJMJ]

"[T]he Article, In one Holy Catholic Church,’ on which, though one might say many things, we will speak but briefly. It is called Catholic then because it extends over all the world, from one end of the earth to the other; and because it teaches universally and completely one and all the doctrines which ought to come to men’s knowledge, concerning things both visible and invisible, heavenly and earthly… for this cause the Faith has securely delivered to thee now the Article, And in one Holy Catholic Church;’ that thou mayest avoid their wretched meetings, and ever abide with the Holy Church Catholic in which thou wast regenerated. And if ever thou art sojourning in cities, inquire not simply where the Lord’s House is (for the other sects of the profane also attempt to call their own dens houses of the Lord), nor merely where the Church is, but where is the Catholic Church. For this is the peculiar name of this Holy Church, the mother of us all, which is the spouse of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 18:23,26 (A.D. 350).

“I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the remission of sins, the resurrection of the flesh, and eternal life. Amen.” Apostles Creed (A.D. 360).

“And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the life-giver, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is together worshiped and together glorified, Who spoke through the prophets; in one holy Catholic, and apostolic Church.” Constantinopolitan Creed (A.D. 381).

“Those who from heresy turn to orthodoxy, and to the portion of those who are being saved, we receive according to the following method and custom: Arians, and Macedonians, and Sabbatians, and Novatians, who call themselves Cathari or Aristori, and Quarto-decimans or Tetradites, and Apollinarians, we receive, upon their giving a written renunciation [of their errors] and anathematize every heresy which is not in accordance with the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God.” Council of Constantinople I, Canon 7 (A.D. 381).

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard.” Augustine, The True Religion, 7:12 (A.D. 390).

“Inasmuch, I repeat, as this is the case, we believe also in the Holy Church, [intending thereby] assuredly the Catholic. For both heretics and schismatics style their congregations churches. But heretics, in holding false opinions regarding God, do injury to the faith itself; while schismatics, on the other hand, in wicked separations break off from brotherly charity, although they may believe just what we believe. Wherefore neither do the heretics belong to the Church catholic, which loves God; nor do the schismatics form a part of the same.” Augustine, On Faith and Creed, 10:21 (A.D. 393).

 

[Gianna_MarieJMJ]

“For in the Catholic Church, not to speak of the purest wisdom, to the knowledge of which a few spiritual, men attain in this life…–not to speak of this wisdom, which you do not believe to be in the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations…so does her authority…the succession of priests…[a]nd so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church…Now if the truth is so clearly proved as to leave no possibility of doubt, it must be set before all the things that keep me in the Catholic Church…For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church…for it was through the Catholics that I got my faith in it; and so, whatever you bring from the gospel will no longer have any weight with me. Wherefore, if no clear proof of the apostleship of Manichaeus is found in the gospel, I will believe the Catholics rather than you.” Augustine, Against the Epistle of Manichaeus, 4:5,5:6 (A.D 397).

“You think that you make a very acute remark when you affirm the name Catholic to mean universal, not in respect to the communion as embracing the whole world, but in respect to the observance of all Divine precepts and of all the sacraments, as if we (even accepting the position that the Church is called Catholic because it honestly holds the whole truth, of which fragments here and there are found in some heresies) rested upon the testimony of this word’s signification, and not upon the promises of God, and so many indisputable testimonies of the truth itself, our demonstration of the existence of the Church of God in all nations.” Augustine, To Vincent the Rogatist, 93:7,23 (A.D. 403).

“Philip the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See said: There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever both lives and judges in his successors.” Council of Ephesus, Session III (A.D. 431).

“I have often then inquired earnestly and attentively of very many men eminent for sanctity and learning, how and by what sure and so to speak universal rule I may be able to distinguish the truth of Catholic faith from the falsehood of heretical depravity; and I have always, and in almost every instance, received an answer to this effect: That whether I or anyone else should wish to detect the frauds and avoid the snares of heretics as they arise, and to continue sound and complete in the Catholic faith, we must, the Lord helping, fortify our own belief in two ways; first, by the authority of the Divine Law, and then, by the Tradition of the Catholic Church…Therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and apostles should be framed in accordance with the standard of Ecclesiastical and Catholic interpretation” Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory for the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith, 2:4,5 (A.D. 434).

“Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith, hath stripped him of the episcopate, and hath alienated from him all hieratic worthiness. Therefore let this most holy and great synod sentence the before mentioned Dioscorus to the canonical penalties.” Council of Chalcedon, Session III (A.D. 451).​

Now as you can see, all these guys are on our side They knew that the Catholic Church was and is the first Christian Church =)

Please comment so I know what you think!

God Bless!

 

[BrushedByAngels]

Where in the Bible do you see Ellen G White and her ilk coming along centuries after Jesus Christ walked on the earth and gave us His Church and Peter the keys?

I would like to see the answer to this one too.

 

[KathleenGee]

Protestant 101, et al,

If you are serious about truly studying objective early church, there is a book that is acknowledged by the Catholic Church as a most objective, balanced --the good, the bad, and the ugly – providing its basic overview.

It also gives the perspective of where the Church was, what had happened to it upon the arrival of Constantine.

Let me know…

 

[brumano]

I would be interested to read any Catholic literature such as the Catechism or other official publications which explain why Roman Catholics see themselves as the first Church. I am not sure exactly where to look so I thought I would try posting this subject to investigate. Thanks to all who participate!

It’s all right there in the scriptures that should be official enough.

 

[Nicea325]

What you call “lies” is the opposite. This forum says it is for the purpose of "comparing/contrasting our respective beliefs. That is all I have done.

Sorry,I did not mean to state you personally where spreading lies. My apologies

 

[Deconi]

No fear, Jharek.

MAAAAATE! Where did you get that Spectre?! He has always been my FAAAAAVVOURITE hero, anti-hero character!

His origin is actually older than some of the denominations throwing stones at the CC here!

Can I STEAL it?!

 

[Protestant101]

Sorry,I did not mean to state you personally where spreading lies. My apologies

Thankyou; I appreciated reading that. Apology definitely accepted.

There are quite a few responses since my last post here; so I will have to just choose one, maybe two of them to answer…time is limited and I cannot answer to all. LOL, now what do I do? (I’ll be back )

 

[confusedius]

Wrong. I would have responded sooner, but either I misread your first sentence, or you should edit before posting.

Sounds like you are rather familiar with the response to which your second sentence alludes, so no need to repeat it. The fact is, you don’t KNOW, and you can’t PROVE. Want to see my “list” proving I am descended from Noah?

Please understand I have no problem with belief, and I respect your beliefs. Just don’t turn them into facts when they are not.

Moving on, questions I have been pondering on: If the Lutheran religion was a “splinter” from Catholicism, why should they not also feel they go all the way back to Christ? What about Orthodox? Are all “first” Churches?

james