The First Vision Versions

[RebeccaJ]

That does not alter the fact that if you tell the same story to different people at different times, and with different amounts of detail, they are going to look different, though not necessarily contradictory; especially if you tell it orally, and those who hear it don’t retell or write down what you had told them until several years later, relying on their memory. That is how those accounts came to be. Joseph never told anyone the full story of everything that transpired in that event; and even the official account that is canonized does not claim to tell the full story. See verse 20 in the quote I gave above: “and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time”. It was a sacred experience for him the full story of which could not be told at that time to anyone.

Here’s the problem as I see it. Smith claimed an experience, that has no witness, and so the only thing to go by is his word, which changes.

I see no reason to believe he had the vision at all. Nine different versions doesn’t entice me to believe he wasn’t just telling a story, that changed over time, as his views regarding God changed. Changing the story changes what he is conveying about the nature of God. It isn’t a small thing that can be swept away.

Saying it all was different because he had a secret he couldn’t tell isn’t convincing.

In the case of a car accident, that has witnesses (as I was in), if I leave something out, the other people who were there can verify what I left out as really happening. Otherwise, I could change my story willy-nilly and who’s to say I didn’t make something up?

You’re going by what you want to believe, with no real evidence for doing so. With Smith’s background as a grifter, with a propensity for telling stories, I don’t see a reason to believe him, at all.

 

[Porknpie]

That does not alter the fact that if you tell the same story to different people at different times, and with different amounts of detail, they are going to look different, though not necessarily contradictory; especially if you tell it orally, and those who hear it don’t retell or write down what you had told them until several years later, relying on their memory .

You are buying into a falsehood. The Apostolic Faith that was taught by Christ to the apostles and from the apostles to their descendants is an example of this not being true. As another poster said, Joseph Smith was the participant and not a witness.** If you can not trust the participant on their own vision, the most defining moment of his entire life, then neither can you trust him on anything else.**…

No apostasy…it was made up too.

 

[Z_Ninja]

Nobody claims that he forgot anything. Read my previous posts.

I never said anyone claims he forgot anything. But his story changes. small details I can see changing. major ones, like whether it was God, Jesus or angels, I believe makes a huge difference in what story is being told. I can see if it was several visions in succession where in the first was a messenger angel, then Jesus or Jesus and God in a second vision. but the first one kept changing.

 

[pablope]

I never said anyone claims he forgot anything. But his story changes. small details I can see changing. major ones, like whether it was God, Jesus or angels, I believe makes a huge difference in what story is being told. I can see if it was several visions in succession where in the first was a messenger angel, then Jesus or Jesus and God in a second vision. but the first one kept changing.

I recall here the Fatima apparitions. Before the BVM appeared, the children first were visited by an angel…and prepared them, before the BVM appeared to them.

 

[lynnettejane]

I don’t know why we are so hung up on the first vision when the book of abraham proves beyond doubt that JS was a fraud. Also, as the LDS church has the papyri in its hands why dont the prophet seers and revelators translate those that remain. Or could it be that they know they have no such powers, and that these papyri do not say what JS claimed, and they are just keeping it to themselves as it is in their interest to do so, by they I am referring to the church leadership.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t know why we are so hung up on the first vision when the book of abraham proves beyond doubt that JS was a fraud. Also, as the LDS church has the papyri in its hands why dont the prophet seers and revelators translate those that remain. Or could it be that they know they have no such powers, and that these papyri do not say what JS claimed, and they are just keeping it to themselves as it is in their interest to do so, by they I am referring to the church leadership.

With Smith’s background as a grifter, with a propensity for telling stories, I don’t see a reason to believe him, at all.

I agree!

 

[SteveVH]

I don’t know why we are so hung up on the first vision…

Probably because that is the subject of this thread.

It occurs to me that we did have a thread on the Book of Abraham that had a link to a very interesting video that more than debunked the whole thing. As I recall, I’m not sure we had any Mormons reply to that thread. I’d like to find the video again.

 

[lynnettejane]

That does not alter the fact that if you tell the same story to different people at different times, and with different amounts of detail, they are going to look different, though not necessarily contradictory; especially if you tell it orally, and those who hear it don’t retell or write down what you had told them until several years later, relying on their memory. That is how those accounts came to be. Joseph never told anyone the full story of everything that transpired in that event; and even the official account that is canonized does not claim to tell the full story. See verse 20 in the quote I gave above: “and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time”. It was a sacred experience for him the full story of which could not be told at that time to anyone.

Mathoniah, this was not just some story, this was a monumental event. If this had happened to you, wouldn’t it be imprinted on your mind, and wouldn’t you and God want it to be faithfully recorded?

 

[lynnettejane]

Probably because that is the subject of this thread.

It occurs to me that we did have a thread on the Book of Abraham that had a link to a very interesting video that more than debunked the whole thing. As I recall, I’m not sure we had any Mormons reply to that thread. I’d like to find the video again.

Sorry Steve wasn’t trying to derail, just occurred to me

 

[TexanKnight]

Read my previous posts before replying. You have the canonized versions of their visions. You have a story of the vision of Isaiah in the book of Isaiah for example; but you don’t know if he didn’t tell that story to his son, his neighbor, his servant, and his friend at different times with varying amounts of detail, which never found their way in the canon. Today we have the canonized version of Joseph’s vision; but we also have surviving accounts of informal recordings of his vision which you could not expect to have for Moses, Isaiah, or Daniel.

lol…THAT is your defense? lol…

 

[SteveVH]

Sorry Steve wasn’t trying to derail, just occurred to me

No Problem. That was just a poor attempt on my part to be funny. But seriously, there is a video that examines the Book of Abraham in detail and proves it to be a sham. Don’t remember the thread. Maybe someone can help.

 

[pablope]

That does not alter the fact that if you tell the same story to different people at different times, and with different amounts of detail, they are going to look different, though not necessarily contradictory; especially if you tell it orally, and those who hear it don’t retell or write down what you had told them until several years later, relying on their memory. That is how those accounts came to be. Joseph never told anyone the full story of everything that transpired in that event; and even the official account that is canonized does not claim to tell the full story. See verse 20 in the quote I gave above: “and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time”. It was a sacred experience for him the full story of which could not be told at that time to anyone.

Could this mean then…with the different versions and details…that JS was not protected by the Holy Spirit…because he could not recall the same details?

 

[lynnettejane]

Mathoniah, this was not just some story, this was a monumental event. If this had happened to you, wouldn’t it be imprinted on your mind, and wouldn’t you and God want it to be faithfully recorded?

Also why the length of time before it was recorded and made public, it is not recorded that whoever it was who visited him forbade it to be published, so why the delay?

 

[mathonihah]

Here’s the problem as I see it. Smith claimed an experience, that has no witness, and so the only thing to go by is his word, which changes.

I see no reason to believe he had the vision at all. Nine different versions doesn’t entice me to believe he wasn’t just telling a story, that changed over time, as his views regarding God changed. Changing the story changes what he is conveying about the nature of God. It isn’t a small thing that can be swept away.

Saying it all was different because he had a secret he couldn’t tell isn’t convincing.

In the case of a car accident, that has witnesses (as I was in), if I leave something out, the other people who were there can verify what I left out as really happening. Otherwise, I could change my story willy-nilly and who’s to say I didn’t make something up?

You’re going by what you want to believe, with no real evidence for doing so. With Smith’s background as a grifter, with a propensity for telling stories, I don’t see a reason to believe him, at all.

Many spiritual experiences in the Bible have no independent witnesses, including Moses’s vision at the burning bush, Isaiah’s vision of Jehovah, Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and others. Yet we believe them. Ultimately we are dependent on the Spirit to witness to us if something is true.

 

[TheIrishman]

No Problem. That was just a poor attempt on my part to be funny. But seriously, there is a video that examines the Book of Abraham in detail and proves it to be a sham. Don’t remember the thread. Maybe someone can help.

You’re looking for an old thread I believe was titled “questions for mormons” and you’re looking for post 322

 

[mathonihah]

You are buying into a falsehood. The Apostolic Faith that was taught by Christ to the apostles and from the apostles to their descendants is an example of this not being true. As another poster said, Joseph Smith was the participant and not a witness.** If you can not trust the participant on their own vision, the most defining moment of his entire life, then neither can you trust him on anything else.**…

No apostasy…it was made up too.

Of course we trust the participant as well as the vision. You are inventing stuff out of your imagination.

 

[SteveVH]

You’re looking for an old thread I believe was titled “questions for mormons” and you’re looking for post 322

Thank you so much.

 

[pablope]

Many spiritual experiences in the Bible have no independent witnesses, including Moses’s vision at the burning bush, Isaiah’s vision of Jehovah, Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and others. Yet we believe them. Ultimately we are dependent on the Spirit to witness to us if something is true.

That is because a church, with verifiable apostolic authority, and from Jesus…said it is true.

The LDS claims is from a claimant, which claim has not been thoroughly investigated by independent sources.

And another question:

You said**…“Ultimately we are dependent on the Spirit to witness to us if something is true”**

How does the Spirit tell the us what is true and what is not true?

If I do not believe your claims, but you believe your claim, which spirit is telling the truth?

Can there be two different spirits telling us different things?

 

[mathonihah]

I never said anyone claims he forgot anything. But his story changes. small details I can see changing. major ones, like whether it was God, Jesus or angels, I believe makes a huge difference in what story is being told. I can see if it was several visions in succession where in the first was a messenger angel, then Jesus or Jesus and God in a second vision. but the first one kept changing.

No changes, only different details in different accounts. Do you know how many contradictions there are in the Bible, and among the four Gospels? Google for “contradictions in the Bible” to find out for yourself. That doesn’t undermine my faith in the Gospels, nor does it undermine my faith in Joseph Smith’s First Vision.

 

[lynnettejane]

Many spiritual experiences in the Bible have no independent witnesses, including Moses’s vision at the burning bush, Isaiah’s vision of Jehovah, Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and others. Yet we believe them. Ultimately we are dependent on the Spirit to witness to us if something is true.

Many spiritual appearances eg Moses and the burning bush are not repeated differently several times