The First Vision Versions

[twopekinguys]

I acknowledge your pretty blatant personal attack on me, RebeccaJ.

I notice the forum rules, Conduct Rule #1:I’ve reported your post to the admins, and will be interested to see what action they take. I’ll try to revisit this thread tomorrow.

They will probably admonish you for failing to answer the questions, and dodging.

Not really seeing what she said/posted as a personal attack, but more of an observation of someone who:

noun
1.
a person who** lacks courage in facing** danger,** difficulty, opposition,** pain, etc.; a timid or easily intimidated person.

since you want to go by dictionary definitions and all.

ETA: It is much more misleading and dishonest to edit her previous post to make it appear to say something it didn’t (i.e. removing emoticon)

 

[TexanKnight]

Would anyone who uses the word ‘contradiction’ as the way the dictionary defines it, care to discuss any other of the supposed contradictions?

well, lets look at the definition then…Mirriam Webster has a dictionary. I hope you have heard of it. Here is the definition from them:

CONTRADICTION

1
: act or an instance of contradicting
2
a : a proposition, statement, or phrase that asserts or implies both the truth and falsity of something
b : a statement or phrase whose parts contradict each other
3
a : logical incongruity
b : a situation in which inherent factors, actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary to one another

Now, look at 3 b. “a situation in which inherent factors, actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary to one another”

now, would talking about only angels in one version and two men in annother, and only one in another be inconsistent? Hmmm?

If so, then they are contradictions ACCORDING TO THE DICTIONARY…

thank you

 

[RebeccaJ]

“I made $20,000 last year.”

“I made $95,0000 last year.”

Are these statements contradictions?

According to neurotypical, no they aren’t contradictions because the first one doesn’t say “just $20,000”.

 

[Stephen168]

It seems to me that the word “Just” would indicate a contradiction. But when I read the exact text of both accounts, the word “just” is in neither of them.

What is the official story of the first vision?

 

[TheIrishman]

“I made $20,000 last year.”

“I made $95,0000 last year.”

Are these statements contradictions?

According to neurotypical, no they aren’t contradictions because the first one doesn’t say “just $20,000”.

I think he would fight the “grammar” issue.

We can put it in terms of money though and it will still show a contradiction.

“i made just $20,000 last year”
or
“i made $20,000 just last year”

Both claim that you only made $20,000 in one year. So when you ADD another $1,000 (add another “presence”. it shows the contradiction.

“i saw just angels” vs “i just saw angels” Both claim that you only saw angels. If you only see angels how would you know if God and Jesus Christ were there too? Since you just saw angels

 

[RebeccaJ]

I think he would fight the “grammar” issue.

We can put it in terms of money though and it will still show a contradiction.

“i made just $20,000 last year”
or
“i made $20,000 just last year”

Both claim that you only made $20,000 in one year. So when you ADD another $1,000 (add another “presence”. it shows the contradiction.

“i saw just angels” vs “i just saw angels” Both claim that you only saw angels. If you only see angels how would you know if God and Jesus Christ were there too? Since you just saw angels

Neurotypical is looking at all the visions together, and making an argument that requires a view that all nine people who Smith spoke to about his alleged vision had the same information. (All nine versions.) They didn’t. Over 15 years or so the story changed, which is being ignored.

 

[Nicea325]

So, I know folks here are patting each other on the back and declaring victory, finding justification in thinking negative things about mormons, but I’m still thinking there’s a massive problem with Texan’s claim.

I started by asking for a concrete example of a single contradiction.
To which Texan replied:

Texan’s first claim was Joseph said “Just angels”. Texan’s revised claim: “only one person there”.

We all agree that if someone says “I saw lots of one people” in one account, and I say “I only saw one person” in the next account, they are contradicting themselves. We do not agree that Joseph ever said “I saw only angels” or “I saw only one person there”.

I have posted links to the source text of all the accounts, and asked someone to point out where Joseph said any such thing. Nobody has. Texan has refused or ignored my repeated requests to identify his sources (he says “I wrote this several years ago after researching the different accounts from several sources”, but he does not reveal those sources or post links. Texan, what you wrote is not a source. It’s a claim about a source. And until you or someone else can back up your claim, then my challenge to your claim is going unopposed.

Texan, I am challenging what you wrote several years ago on this point. I am challenging you to prove that Joseph said what you claimed he said. Please point to where Joseph claims to have seen only angels, or have seen only one person there. You cannot, because the words are not there.

Truthseeker32 seems to get it.

TexanKnight holds up his credentials as a lawyer, who deals with sworn testimony daily, to try to make the definition of the word “contradiction” fit what he wants it to fit.

I reject that definition, in favor of the dictionary definition, and the way the word is used and understood amongst most english speaking peoples.

Texan, I see your personal attacks on me - accusing me of knowingly throwing out red herrings, and demanding that I “stop obsessing”. Your personal attacks do not answer my valid challenge. You claim Joseph said something he didn’t. Either prove he did, or your claim stands correctly judged as incorrect, invalid, wrong, false.

I am not a lawyer, and I have no legal training. But I do know the definition of the word “contradiction”, and I know that in the case of the two 1835 accounts, you have to put words in Joseph’s claims that he did not make, in order to accuse him.

Texan, thank you for opening this thread. I appreciate it’s stated purpose:

I am happy to consider other examples of contradictions. But I would like to see one last time if you are able to prove that Joseph said “just angels/only one person there” in one account, and “God and angels” in another.

I hope everybody had a good weekend.

Nope! I also gave you an easy demonstration how the stories contradict themselves. For crying out of loud, why do you flat out deny the obvious? There exist several versions of the First Visions…so how on earth can you remotely argue about something so clear as crystal? Your so-called prophet is a con- artist…sorry.

 

[TexanKnight]

Nope! I also gave you an easy demonstration how the stories contradict themselves. For crying out of loud, why do you flat out deny the obvious? There exist several versions of the First Visions…so how on earth can you remotely argue about something so clear as crystal? Your so-called prophet is a con- artist…sorry.

just like he got quiet AFTER I showed him what he denied…THEN I gave an accurate definition of contradiction.

If he speaks now, he will just contradict himself…

 

[kimg901]

Nope! I also gave you an easy demonstration how the stories contradict themselves. For crying out of loud, why do you flat out deny the obvious? There exist several versions of the First Visions…so how on earth can you remotely argue about something so clear as crystal? Your so-called prophet is a con- artist…sorry.

While I do agree with you about the stories contradicting each other I have to believe that most mormons are spoon-fed this and when they hear or see what the truth really is it hurts them to know they have been lied to by the people they trust. Or they might just be that blind to the truth How would we feel or act if everything we know and love was a lie?

 

[Nicea325]

just like he got quiet AFTER I showed him what he denied…THEN I gave an accurate definition of contradiction.

If he speaks now, he will just contradict himself…

I just do not understand how so many Mormons are rebuked and with sound evidence and they still stare at you as though you are lying to them? I just don’t get it?

 

[Nicea325]

While I do agree with you about the stories contradicting each other I have to believe that most mormons are spoon-fed this and when they hear or see what the truth really is it hurts them to know they have been lied to by the people they trust. Or they might just be that blind to the truth How would we feel or act if everything we know and love was a lie?

Oh I would be upset and feel as though I have been deceived. But at the same time, it is an eye-opener and I would most definitely seek the Truth.

 

[kimg901]

Oh I would be upset and feel as though I have been deceived. But at the same time, it is an eye-opener and I would most definitely seek the Truth.

But to them, lies are truth All we can do is pray for these lost and troubled souls.

 

[Nicea325]

But to them, lies are truth All we can do is pray for these lost and troubled souls.

I know and all we can do is pray for them.

 

[SteveVH]

Pray for them, and when they are down, show a little mercy and not give them that one last kick to the ribs.

 

[Miriam1947]

A year or so ago a couple came into my store. He is a cradle Catholic and she a Mormon. Married over 30 years. She was coming into the Catholic Church through RCIA.

We talked about the First Cause and how Mormonism doesn’t have it.

Regardless of what Mormonism teaches, it still can never get to the First Cause. God who created everything. Not a god who learned and became god. But God who is the Alpha and Omega.

Alpha and Omega, alpha (α or Α) and omega (ω or Ω), are the first and the last letters of the Greek alphabet and are an appellation of Christ or of God in the Book of Revelation. These couple of letters are used as Christian symbols,[1] and are often combined with the Cross, Chi-rho, or other Christian symbols.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_and_Omega

 

[TexanKnight]

Ya knbow, what does it say about a guy who strongly claims there are no contradictions in the first vision versions, says he will not discuss on it on the thread it was brought up, but refuses to come defend his claims on a thread designed for him to defend his claims?

Mathonihah, there is not need to be afraid. Though, I suspect the reason you choose not defend your claims on this thread are because you know they cannot be defended.

 

[Porknpie]

I’ve just read this for the first time. I’m understanding that Joseph Smith had multiple accounts of his first version which can be summarized below:

a) The Lord
b) Angels
c) Two Personages and (many) Angels
d) Two Personages that looked alike
e) Two Personages that did not look alike (implied by one having light skin & blue eyes)

If I remember my high school math, there are 60 contradictions in the statements above using the following equation

5x4x3x2x1 divided by 2 (2x1)

For example
a) & b) are contradictory
a) & c) are contradictory
a) & d) are contradictory
a) & e) are contradictory
b) & c) are contradictory
b) & d) are contradictory
etc…

But assume that Joseph really can’t write well (even though he did write a few books) and there are only four basic stories and not five

a) The Lord
b) Angels
c) Angels and Personages
d) Personages (only)

This would mean that there are (4x3x2x1 / 2x1) 12 contradictions in the stories above.

Whether it be 60 contradictions, 12 contradictions or even two contradictions…there is a big problem here of Joseph’s first account.

Premise:
His first account can not be trusted (and the math above objectively shows it can not…this is using reason)

Conclusion:
As his first account can not be trusted, neither can ANYTHING else that JS said be trusted…including that there was a “Great Apostasy” in the Church…that no one can identify as to when.

How’s my math?

 

[TexanKnight]

I’ve just read this for the first time. I’m understanding that Joseph Smith had multiple accounts of his first version which can be summarized below:

a) The Lord
b) Angels
c) Two Personages and (many) Angels
d) Two Personages that looked alike
e) Two Personages that did not look alike (implied by one having light skin & blue eyes)

If I remember my high school math, there are 60 contradictions in the statements above using the following equation

5x4x3x2x1 divided by 2 (2x1)

For example
a) & b) are contradictory
a) & c) are contradictory
a) & d) are contradictory
a) & e) are contradictory
b) & c) are contradictory
b) & d) are contradictory
etc…

But assume that Joseph really can’t write well (even though he did write a few books) and there are only four basic stories and not five

a) The Lord
b) Angels
c) Angels and Personages
d) Personages (only)

This would mean that there are (4x3x2x1 / 2x1) 12 contradictions in the stories above.

Whether it be 60 contradictions, 12 contradictions or even two contradictions…there is a big problem here of Joseph’s first account.

Premise:
His first account can not be trusted (and the math above objectively shows it can not…this is using reason)

Conclusion:
As his first account can not be trusted, neither can ANYTHING else that JS said be trusted…including that there was a “Great Apostasy” in the Church…that no one can identify as to when.

How’s my math?

Your math is good. I had a trial last week. The defendant had TWO different stories about an event. One he gave at his deposition and one at trial. I won the trial. The jury said the defendant had no credibility because he had TWO versions of his story. He claimed th stories were not really different. The jury disagreed.

I would have LOVED to have cross examined Joe in court. It would have been like a turkey shoot. I think this is why Joe ran away from every situation where he might have to be examined in court.

 

[NeuroTypical]

well, lets look at the definition then…Mirriam Webster has a dictionary. I hope you have heard of it.

You hope I’ve heard of the dictionary? That sounded a little sarcastic. Or do you honestly believe my education to be sub-par enough that I’ve never heard of one? It makes me wonder - if you truly believe that, why waste your breath arguing with such an unarmed opponent? Or, if it was just a sarcastic personal jab, do you really think such statements helps your argument?

CONTRADICTION
1: act or an instance of contradicting
2a : a proposition, statement, or phrase that asserts or implies both the truth and falsity of something
b : a statement or phrase whose parts contradict each other
3a : logical incongruity
b : a situation in which inherent factors, actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary to one another

Now, look at 3 b. “a situation in which inherent factors, actions, or propositions are inconsistent or contrary to one another”

now, would talking about only angels in one version and two men in annother, and only one in another be inconsistent? Hmmm?

If so, then they are contradictions ACCORDING TO THE DICTIONARY…

I guess this is the root of our disagreement. To you, an inconsistency is a contradiction. Because definition 3B of the word in the Miriam Webster dictionary. To me, a contradiction must be an assertion of a contrary. A denial. A statement that denies another statement or itself, and is logically incongruous.

I guess everyone who sides with you, and believes inconsistencies are contradictions, will believe that Joseph’s accounts are full of contradictions, because there are many inconsistencies with each other. Joseph briefly mentioned his first angelic visitation to one guy, and spoke in a more detailed fashion about God and angels to another guy. Those two accounts are inconsistent, because one doesn’t mention God. And to you, and definition 3B of Miriam-Webster, inconsistent = contradiction.

It seems obvious that several posters here feel you’ve won, and proven your case. It will be interesting to see if in the future, you will continue to put the words ‘just’ or ‘only’ into Joseph’s mouth when discussing the issue.

I’m at a loss on how to proceed, when there’s such a stark difference in how we define such simple words. I usually bow out of a discussion when personal attacks fly. But since that seems to be the norm here, I stuck around until we ended up arguing the dictionary.

Last word is yours.

 

[TexanKnight]

You hope I’ve heard of the dictionary? That sounded a little sarcastic. Or do you honestly believe my education to be sub-par enough that I’ve never heard of one? It makes me wonder - if you truly believe that, why waste your breath arguing with such an unarmed opponent? Or, if it was just a sarcastic personal jab, do you really think such statements helps your argument?

I guess this is the root of our disagreement. To you, an inconsistency is a contradiction. Because definition 3B of the word in the Miriam Webster dictionary. To me, a contradiction must be an assertion of a contrary. A denial. A statement that denies another statement or itself, and is logically incongruous.

I guess everyone who sides with you, and believes inconsistencies are contradictions, will believe that Joseph’s accounts are full of contradictions, because there are many inconsistencies with each other. Joseph briefly mentioned his first angelic visitation to one guy, and spoke in a more detailed fashion about God and angels to another guy. Those two accounts are inconsistent, because one doesn’t mention God. And to you, and definition 3B of Miriam-Webster, inconsistent = contradiction.

It seems obvious that several posters here feel you’ve won, and proven your case. It will be interesting to see if in the future, you will continue to put the words ‘just’ or ‘only’ into Joseph’s mouth when discussing the issue.

I’m at a loss on how to proceed, when there’s such a stark difference in how we define such simple words. I usually bow out of a discussion when personal attacks fly. But since that seems to be the norm here, I stuck around until we ended up arguing the dictionary.

Last word is yours.

ah…so to be correct, you have to ignore the part of the definition that you dislike. Well, I guess I can expect that from someone who does the same thing with the Bible to justify his beliefs…