The Five Points of Calvinism or TULIP

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Let’s talk about some refutations of the Calvinist TULIP. Maybe we could put together a Catholic version of TULIP??? Anyhow, I think this could be a helpful thread for Calvinists to understand Catholic soteriology and vice versa.
 
What about four point Calvinists? Not trying to be harsh, you just gotta be on your feet.
 
Oh thanks! 👍 4-pointers are welcome too! I’m kind of new here and have only debated the usual 5-point Calvinists. Thanks for the heads-up, adamhovey1988!
 
Well, one can refute most of Calvin just by lingering at T for Total Depravity. Catholics believe that we were created good – “very good” – and retain an essential goodness, although marred by the Fall. No Total Depravity.
 
Anyway, just a quick run-through TULIP:

Total Depravity: Human nature is thoroughly corrupt and sinful as a result of the Fall.

Unconditional Election: God predestines some for Heaven and some for Hell, regardless of any foreseen actions of those individuals.

Limited Atonement: Jesus died only for the elect or those who end up in Heaven.

Irresistible Grace: The saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save and, in God’s timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to faith in Christ.

Perseverance of the Saints: Once persons are truly “born of God” or “regenerated” by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, nothing in heaven or earth “shall be able to separate from the love of God” resulting in a reversal of the converted condition.

Here’s the definitions. Let me know what y’all think of them. You can focus on any of them in any order you want. I’m not too picky.
 
A very good point to bring up! I told my Calvinist friend that when we first began talking about T.D. Honestly, once you start delving into one of the five points, the others start crumbling. Keep it up guys!
 
Limoncello4021 said:
Well, one can refute most of Calvin just by lingering at T for Total Depravity. Catholics believe that we were created good – “very good” – and retain an essential goodness, although marred by the Fall. No Total Depravity.
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This does not address the T for Total Depravity at all. Total depravity is a descriptive used for man after the fall and his ability to effect salvation of his own effort. Unless Catholic soteriology believes that man in the state of original sin has the capacity to effect his own salvation or doesn’t require salvation at all, then your take on this point doesn’t address Calvinist doctrine.
 
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Hodos said:
Unless Catholic soteriology believes that man in the state of original sin has the capacity to effect his own salvation…
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Hey there Hodos!

Sorry to have caused any misunderstanding. The Catholic Church teaches that man is entirely unable to please God without grace. Catholics agree 100% with sola gratia. What we find problematic is the idea that every action of the unregenerate man is sinful. Anyhow, just to clarify, Catholics DO NOT believe that man in the state of original sin has the capacity to effect him own salvation.

Thanks for the comment Hodos!
 
Oh yeah, here’s some what the Second Council of Orange says, “as often as we do good God operates in us and with us, so that we may operate” (canon 9) and “man does no good except that which God brings about” (canon 20). Just some further clarification.
 
lagerald24 said:
Sorry to have caused any misunderstanding. The Catholic Church teaches that man is entirely unable to please God without grace. Catholics agree 100% with sola gratia. What we find problematic is the idea that every action of the unregenerate man is sinful.
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That was my point though, Total Depravity does not teach that we can’t obey God’s law at times (examples might be an atheist who has never murdered someone), it is that our standing before God due to original sin is that we are guilty, and that we cannot by our own effort effect our salvation. However, I would also caution on the belief that even our supposed righteous acts please God, because they don’t. Even our supposed righteous acts don’t merit favor in God’s sight as they are tainted by sin. Refer to Isaiah 6 where he states that even our righteous acts are as filthy rags before God. Also refer to the sermon on the Mount and Christ’s explanations of murder, divorce, adultery, etc. The point of Total Depravity is that no one is righteous, no not one, so that no one may boast.

In other words, if you are Christian of any stripe, you believe this one. Its kind of definitional of Christianity.
 
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Hi Hodos just curious which denomination would you say you were, if at all?
 
I am not Roman Catholic, nor am I Calvinist, if that is what you are getting at.
 
MT1926 said:
He means our righteous acts with God’s Grace. How could our righteous acts with God’s Grace not please God? After all once we have Grace it is Christ working in us.
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Right, but that is not what Total Depravity is addressing. Total Depravity is addressing the state of man without Christ.
 
Just wondered as I am a former Methodist who is now catholic and wondered if you were Calvinist how you would explain me spiritually if you see what I mean
 
Hodos said:
Right, but that is not what Total Depravity is addressing. Total Depravity is addressing the state of man without Christ.
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Sorry I must have misunderstood. When you said…
Hodos said:
However, I would also caution on the belief that even our supposed righteous acts please God, because they don’t. Even our supposed righteous acts don’t merit favor in God’s sight as they are tainted by sin.
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When I read the word however, in my mind it seemed you were saying however even after receiving grace. Sorry about that I didn’t realize you were still talking about the person before they come to Christ.

My Bad

God Bless
 
I would explain just as Paul did. You are spiritually dead. You once walked in your sins, obeying the passions of the body and the mind and were by nature a child of wrath like that rest of mankind. However, we have died with Christ, were raised with Christ, have been seated at God’s side in Christ, to the glory of God. By grace you have been saved through faith, this is not of yourself, it is a gift of God (this is assuming you have faith in Christ).
 
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No worries. Theology is all about communicating definitions.
 
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What do you mean I am spiritually dead? And if I’m formerly Methodist and now catholic I feel I’ve covered my bases hahah ! Total faith in the mercy of Christ xx
 
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