The Five Points of Calvinism or TULIP

[MT1926]

I did earlier. You must not be reading. Which definition would you like since you seem to be confused?

I must be missing something. I read the entire thread. Could you please point out where you defined how this…

Then Catholicism, as the Reformers asserted, has departed from the apostolic faith. Grace in the context of justification is described as a gift, which by definition is something that is not earned.

Is a clear concise logical and well thought out response to @guanophore stating Catholics believe grace can not be earned

Exactly, you hold to a Pelagian view of salvation, whereas the Calvinists hold to an Augustinian view of salvation.

Maybe you could help us all out and point out where Jimmy and Tim teach in the videos above that Catholics hold to a Pelagian view of salvation.

If not this is just an unkind assertion that you can not back up with anything other than you own anti-Catholic bias.

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

Exactly, you hold to a Pelagian view of salvation, whereas the Calvinists hold to an Augustinian view of salvation.

This is one of the most prevalent myths about the Catholic Church. The CC does not teach that we can “earn” grace, or that we can save ourselves apart from God’s grace.

You may not realize that it was the Catholic Church that defeated the heresy of Pelagianism. And you may not realize that Augustine is Catholic?

I am unclear, however, how you get from human beings made in the image and likeness of God to Pelagianism. Did you think I was saying that the way we are made came from anything but God? Or that, just because human beings are made to seek after God, they can find Him apart from grace?

 

[guanophore]

If not this is just an unkind assertion that you can not back up with anything than you own anti-Catholic bias.

It may be that Hodos is not being unkind…it is possible his anti-Catholic bias is just ground in misunderstanding of what Catholics believe.

 

[TK421]

Let’s talk about some refutations of the Calvinist TULIP. Maybe we could put together a Catholic version of TULIP??? Anyhow, I think this could be a helpful thread for Calvinists to understand Catholic soteriology and vice versa.

We don’t have easy acronyms because our faith is complex and dives into the full richness of Sacred Scripture. It is something we inherited from our Jewish forbears, who also deeply emphasized exegesis and study.

Calvinism spends disproportionate amounts of times hanging onto a small number of verses.

 

[lanman87]

I don’t think this is a very accurate representation of Total Depravity, or at least, not it’s relationship to salvation.

The best analogy I’ve heard about mankind’s state without God is something like this. (disclaimer- this is actually part of Evangelism Explosion training that I had about 20 years ago and this is from memory so it may not be very accurate)

Imagine you are making large sausage and egg breakfast casserole that has 2 dozen eggs in the recipe. Everything is going well as you are cracking and stirring up the eggs until you get to the 24th Egg. You crack the 24th egg and drop the yoke into the pot and give it a stir only to realize the last egg was spoiled. Even though 23 of the 24 eggs was good the 24th egg ruined the entire dish.

That is they way we are before we come to Christ. We can be a good person, do good things, be a kind person, but that one sin taints everything we do and makes us spiritually dead just as the one bad egg makes the dish inedible. Our physical, emotional, intellectual and moral ability to remains. We will make both good moral decisions and bad moral (sinful decisions) but the moral decisions do not add to our salvation because they are tainted with sin (a bad egg).

This is why we can be a great person and still under the bondage of sin. This is why we can never been good enough in our own power to merit the Grace of God.

 

[TULIPed]

I’m a Reformed Christian, and when I have questions about how my Catholic brothers and sisters view an issue theologically, the first place I go (after the Bible), is the Roman Catholic Catechism.

The bad news for Catholics (and anyone for that matter) who wants to get the no-kidding, “look under the hood” about Calvinism, is that you really need to go to his treatise the “Institutes of the Christian Religion”. And if you do - well, let’s just say that if you’re out of melatonin, you’ve landed in the right spot.

The good news (pun intended) is that you can also go have a look at the Westminster or 2nd Helvetic confessions and get a pretty good summary there. The 2nd Helvetic confession is much easier reading (not nearly as good as the RCC in terms of easy to read mind you).

 

[Hodos]

I must be missing something. I read the entire thread. Could you please point out where you defined how this…

What do you wish to have defined? Earlier I defined the Calvinist concept of Total Depravity as opposed to what someone who was misinformed about the doctrine had espoused. Keep in mind, I am not Calvinist, but am familiar enough with their doctrine that I can probably eliminate any misunderstandings you may have about the 5 Points of Calvinism.

Maybe you could help us all out and point out where Jimmy and Tim teach in the videos above that Catholics hold to a Pelagian view of salvation.

It is a not an unkind assertion. Pelagianism is documented and Guanophore’s interpretation of Catholic doctrine can objectively be compared to Augstinianism and Pelagianism. My comment did not address Jimmy or Tim, it was a response to Guanophore’s previous reply to me.

If not this is just an unkind assertion that you can not back up with anything other than you own anti-Catholic bias.

I am not anti-Catholic by any stretch of the imagination. I will gladly engage in discussion where we agree and disagree on points of doctrine. That doesn’t make me Anti-Catholic. I hold to the one holy catholic and apostolic faith.

 

[Hodos]

Thanks for your response since there seems to be a number of people with some serious misunderstandings of what Calvinism actually teaches.

 

[MT1926]

And if you do - well, let’s just say that if you’re out of melatonin, you’ve landed in the right spot.

I am so glad I just moved my computer to a standing desk, if not I might have gotten hurt from falling out of my chair laughing when I read this.

 

[lagerald24]

Hi again Hodos (and all)!

In regards to the verses you cited, I read through Isaiah Chapter 6 and didn’t find anything that teaches Total Depravity. The Chapter shows how Isaiah, like all of us, needed to be cleansed of his sins because he was a sinner. We’re on the same page there! Okay, in regards to the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew Chapter 5, I don’t quite see how it explains Total Depravity (please correct me if I’m wrong or have missed something). These passages on murder, divorce, adultery, ect. are examples of conduct for Christian life. Concerning your citation of Romans 3, this passage, Romans 3:10-18, is explaining how sin is universal, how we all are sinners and how we all share the common burdens of sin. What we must keep in mind, though, is that this passage does not teach Total Depravity, as John Calvin understood it. Also, Paul is citing heavily from the Psalms, particularly Psalm 14, so maybe I’ll run through that real quick.

Psalm 14:3-4 talk about how all are perverse and not one does good. However, if we move on to verse 5, we read that “God is with the company of the just.” So, obviously there are the righteous and the unrighteous. Please keep in mind that it is all by grace that we are made just or righteous. Also, back in Romans, we read in Chapter 2:12-16 that “when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law even though they do not have the law. They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.”

So, what can we take from all of these verses? Well, mankind is definitely depraved and is totally unable to save himself. Mankind is not totally depraved, however, where every one of his actions is sinful. The unregenerate man is capable of natural goods on a mere human level but please remember that these actions in and of themselves cannot save. It’s all by the grace of God that we are saved and not merely by our own efforts by themselves. We cannot come to God but through His freely-given grace. All of the blessed in Heaven are there 100% sola fide.

Anyhow, thanks everyone for this dialogue. Hope my post isn’t too long or something.

 

[lagerald24]

Sorry I’ve been gone for a little while. It was my first day at CAF yesterday and I quickly reached the 20-comments-on-your-first-day thing. Anyway, I’m back.

 

[MT1926]

What do you wish to have defined?

For the third and final time…

@guanophore said…

Most, if not all, Calvanists think that Catholics believe they can work their way to heaven. They confuse the concept of “merit” with the idea that we, of ourselves, can earn grace.

You responded…

Then Catholicism, as the Reformers asserted, has departed from the apostolic faith. Grace in the context of justification is described as a gift, which by definition is something that is not earned.

I simply asked you to further define your answer here. You already accused me of not understanding what you said once on this thread, I just didn’t want to do it again. I didn’t want to jump to any conclusions because your response when taken directly in relation to what you sited in your post sure seems like you are saying…

Catholicism has departed from the Apostolic faith because we believe we cannot work our way into heaven based on @guanophore first sentence or it can be thought you meant we departed from the Apostolic faith because we no longer believe we can earn grace on our own.

I just didn’t want to jump to one of the above conclusions which is why I already asked twice if you could further explain.

I will gladly engage in discussion where we agree and disagree on points of doctrine.

Sounds great. How about reviewing the above videos which give better explanations of the points than we can give typing on a forum and we can discuss which parts you disagree with.

I’m just trying to advance the discussion instead of us harping in on what WE think the other person said.

God Bless

 

[lagerald24]

Howdy lanman87,

This is why we can never been good enough in our own power to merit the Grace of God.

Amen to that! We are what we are all by the gift of God’s grace.

What I disagree with, however, is the fact of ‘faith alone’ that you implied in your analogy (if I understood it properly). It’s very clear in the Bible, like in James Ch. 2 and Romans 2:6, that God will judge us according to our works, whether for good or for evil. We believe that God gives us grace to be able to perform good works and those works, performed hand-in-hand with faith, really do justify us. Hope this is helpful. Let’s continue this dialogue, shall we?

 

[lagerald24]

Thanks for the sources TULIPed! The “Institutes of the Christian Religion” is online, so I’ll check it out for references and such.

 

[lagerald24]

Here’s the link:http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books/Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion.pdf

 

[guanophore]

You crack the 24th egg and drop the yoke into the pot and give it a stir only to realize the last egg was spoiled.

You know, I really had this happen once. The yolk of the egg was BLACK! freaked me out. I found out it is a virus some chickens get. It wasn’t the 24th egg, tho, just the second but it ruined my appetite.

sin taints everything we do and makes us spiritually dead

Catholics have a similar understanding, except that, since we don’t believe in Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) we refer to this as being in a state of grace, or out of a state of grace. Unlike Calvanists, we don’t think the nature of sin has changed “this side of the cross”. In other words, we believe that sin can still separate us from God.

This is why we can never been good enough in our own power to merit the Grace of God.

You are not also under the misapprehension that Catholics think otherwise, are you?

I’m a Reformed Christian, and when I have questions about how my Catholic brothers and sisters view an issue theologically, the first place I go (after the Bible), is the Roman Catholic Catechism.

I respect that you are willing to have dialogue about what we actually teach, rather than just myths about what we believe.

The Catechism is not “Roman”, though.

 

[TULIPed]

Okay, in regards to the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew Chapter 5, I don’t quite see how it explains Total Depravity (please correct me if I’m wrong or have missed something).

As you have grown in your faith, have you become more or less aware of sin in your life? I would say that I have become far more aware of the sin in my life as my faith in Christ has deepened. I’m not saying I’m the tax collector beating my chest in the back pew yet - but I am saying that I grow increasingly aware of my need for Christ the closer I get to him.

What the idea of depravity does for me is twofold. First, it explains very well the way I feel about my sin and its devious way of invading everything in my life (Romans 7:19-25). Second, it makes me incredibly thankful for our King’s great mercy and love in that while I was yet a wretched sinner, Christ died for me.

 

[TULIPed]

Yeah - sorry about that. I always heard it referred to by a Catholic buddy as the “RCC”. I guess I need to reduce that to the “CC”.

 

[lagerald24]

it makes me incredibly thankful for our King’s great mercy and love in that while I was yet a wretched sinner, Christ died for me.

Amen to that, TULIPed!

God has fulfilled the Old Covenant He gave to the Jews with the better New Covenant He gives to all. The Law of the Torah has been fulfilled in the better Law of Christ.

I grow increasingly aware of my need for Christ the closer I get to him.

Totally agree!

 

[guanophore]

Guanophore’s interpretation of Catholic doctrine can objectively be compared to Augstinianism and Pelagianism.

This is what we are asking you to show. You have not explained how you see that.

Earlier I defined the Calvinist concept of Total Depravity as opposed to what someone who was misinformed about the doctrine had espoused.

Is the image of God in man wounded, or destroyed?

Is the human person still able to seek and search for God before they are “saved”?

I hold to the one holy catholic and apostolic faith.

I am sure you believe that you do.

Thanks for the sources TULIPed! The “Institutes of the Christian Religion” is online, so I’ll check it out for references and such.

In addition to running out of melatonin, you might want to put in a supply of No Doze.

the idea of depravity

Is this a term coined by Calvin, or do you find it in Scripture?

Yeah - sorry about that. I always heard it referred to by a Catholic buddy as the “RCC”. I guess I need to reduce that to the “CC”.

There are plenty of Catholics (I would say most) that think that “Roman” is all there is. They know little or nothing of the Eastern Churches, and are not aware that there are 23 Rites in the Catholic Church. The Latin Rite is the largest and most common in the West, so tends to get all the press.