The Five Points of Calvinism or TULIP

[lanman87]

Is the human person still able to seek and search for God before they are “saved”?

it is interesting what Calvin said in the Institutes (Shout out to ladgerald24 for posting a link)

1. That there exists in the human minds and indeed by natural instinct, some sense of Deity, we hold to be beyond dispute, since God himself, to prevent any man from pretending ignorance, has endued all men with some idea of his Godhead, the memory of which he constantly renews and occasionally enlarges, that all to a man being aware that there is a God, and that he is their Maker, may be condemned by their own conscience when they neither worship him nor consecrate their lives to his service. Certainly, if there is any quarter where it may be supposed that God is unknown, the most likely for such an instance to exist is among the dullest tribes farthest removed from civilisation. But, as a heathen tells us, there is no nation so barbarous, no race so brutish, as not to be imbued with the conviction that there is a God. Even those who, in other respects, seem to differ least from the lower animals, constantly retain some sense of religion; so thoroughly has this common conviction possessed the mind, so firmly is it stamped on the breasts of all men. Since, then, there never has been, from the very first, any quarter of the globe, any city, any household even, without religion, this amounts to a tacit confession, that a sense of Deity is inscribed on every heart. Nay, even idolatry is ample evidence of this fact

 

[TULIPed]

Is this a term coined by Calvin, or do you find it in Scripture?

TULIPed:

Calvin used it (translated) in his “Institutes” if memory serves, and Catholics agree on the efficacy of the term (Depravity? Yes. Total Depravity? No Way | Catholic Answers). Where we disagree (please correct me if I’m wrong) is the level thereof.

Which brings us to the question - is it possible to give Christ too much credit? If we agree that we’re depraved (which we do) - then we’re arguing about the level of depravity. A Calvinist simply says, "I’m not taking any credit whatsoever for anything “good” that I do (I take all the credit for my depravity though). All the credit for anything that God sees as “good” in me goes to Christ. We are entirely and utterly dependent upon Him. It’s all about Him. The less I make it about me - the less “selfish” I am - the better, no?

 

[MichaelP3]

The bad news for Catholics (and anyone for that matter) who wants to get the no-kidding, “look under the hood” about Calvinism, is that you really need to go to his treatise the “Institutes of the Christian Religion”. And if you do - well, let’s just say that if you’re out of melatonin, you’ve landed in the right spot.

I always get a smile when I read things like

1. It cannot hold under scrutiny
2. Once you start to ask the questions it crumbles.

While the people saying these things have either not heard of The Institutes or will not even go through the effort of checking it out. Many do not realise it is an extensive in depth piece of work put together by a lawyer and pretty much expects and answers every counter point.

 

[TULIPed]

Agreed.

However, I am and have been an offender in reverse. There’s been many a time when I’ve said, “Catholic theology is wrong because…”, without taking the time to do some research before opening my pie hole.

I am first among stone throwers I’m afraid (thank goodness I’m very inaccurate).

 

[MT1926]

Where we disagree (please correct me if I’m wrong) is the level thereof.

From my understanding of Calvin yes this is where we disagree with Calvin. I would agree what Tim says in your article here…

But an even more grave error comes to the fore when we consider his notion of the depravity of the just .

“Depravity of the just?” Yes. That was not a typo. According to John Calvin, even those who have been justified by Christ “cannot perform one work which, if judged on its own merits, is not deserving of condemnation” ( Institutes , bk. III, ch. 9, para. 9). What a far cry this is from “he that acts justly is just” (I John 3:7) or the plain words of the Psalmist, who uses similar words as found in Genesis with regard to Abraham being justified by faith: “[Abraham] believed the Lord; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness” (Gen. 15:6). In the Psalms we read: “Then Phineas stood up and interposed, and the plague was stayed. And that has been reckoned to him as righteousness from generation to generation” (Ps. 106:30-31).

Which brings us to the question - is it possible to give Christ too much credit?

Based on the above I would answer NO and yes. Because of what He was done for us we personally can never give enough credit to Christ. However, we are all members of Christ’s family. So to me (as a father being blessed with the responsibility to be in charge of a family) from this fatherly point of view I would say yes it might. Bear with me here please might get confusing. As the head of my family I want to give my children credit (merit) where credit(merit) is due. Why? Not because they earned it, but because it holds them out as stellar examples to their brothers and sisters. See, for me anyway, I can see how this works with the Communion of Saints. The Saints that have gone before us are Saints because they lived exemplar lives. Sure they were only able to do so because of God’s Grace but at the same time we have to give them credit (as God does) for doing something with that grace. I believe this is the way God set it up because as human beings we look up to our fellow human beings and we have the desire to imitate greatness. Well in my mind if it’s all Christ and as John Calvin says …

According to John Calvin, even those who have been justified by Christ “cannot perform one work which, if judged on its own merits, is not deserving of condemnation” ( Institutes , bk. III, ch. 9, para. 9).

then what’s the sense of even trying. Keep bearing with me here I’m going to the extreme. If we can’t do anything that God will judge as meritorious then that would mean that there is no sense in trying to imitate the great Saints because in the end they were just lucky enough to get the extra grace.

Not sure if that makes sense to you but it does to me.

God Bless

 

[RobertAdams]

Maybe we could put together a Catholic version of TULIP???

I don’t think it makes sense to engage with a notion like TULIP because there’s no point in arguing with someone who makes up their own definitions. The T alone requires that one adhere to a different definition of depravity than what the word actually means. If you start with the premise that a non-believer who is feeding starving children is “totally” depraved because as a non-believer he can’t not be depraved no matter what he does; no one can really argue because your premise has already ruled out the possibility of any evidence to the contrary. If you find that approach to reasoning convincing, I don’t really have anything to offer.

It’s like saying flying strictly means moving through the vacuum of outer space therefore I’m correct when I say birds don’t fly.

 

[MT1926]

A Calvinist simply says, "I’m not taking any credit whatsoever for anything “good” that I do (I take all the credit for my depravity though).

Wanted to ask you about this one. Not saying that you are wrong here or that this isn’t what Calvinists believe, but the Calvinists I’ve talk to around here always hit me with…

Since it is all Christ and no good works can help me gain my salvation then by that very same standard, all based on the merit of Christ, there is nothing I can do to lose my salvation.

Maybe these guys are an off shoot of Calvin but from their point of view it doesn’t sound like they are taking any credit for their depravity?

You thoughts? Is this just an off shoot of Calvin that still considers themselves Calvinists?

The less I make it about me - the less “selfish” I am - the better, no?

Totally agree with this. Just wish more people, even on this forum (including myself - just talked to my Priest last night about this in confession), would stop telling themselves their actions and words are all about Jesus when in actuality they (myself included) are actually being selfish in their desire to be right or put the other person down.

God Bless

 

[lagerald24]

Yeah, I get what you’re saying RobertAdams. TULIP is a tricky concept and you have to navigate through it rather carefully, armed with the Catechism and the Bible.

 

[TULIPed]

Since it is all Christ and no good works can help me gain my salvation then by that very same standard, all based on the merit of Christ, there is nothing I can do to lose my salvation.

Maybe these guys are an off shoot of Calvin but from their point of view it doesn’t sound like they are taking any credit for their depravity?

Who would you guess Calvin would say is ultimately responsible for our “Perservearance” as saints? (See Philippians 1:6).

The real question for your Calvinist friends MT is this: “How does knowing that you can’t lose your salvation affect your relationship with Christ?” How does that fact make a difference in the way I carry out the 2 great commandments? How does the Perservearance of the Saints exist in tension with “working out our salvation with fear and trembling”?

There’s a lot I have to learn about our faith and our King, but this I know: if all Calvinism does for me is give me an excuse to be intellectual and lord my supposed “knowledge” of scripture over others, then my faith is indeed dead as a door nail. There is no better example of a “resounding gong” or a “clanging cymbal”.

Knowing that my perservearnce is a gift from God makes me thankful for his mercy and convicted of my sinfulness all the more. I hope and pray to see evidence of this gift in my relationship with God (How’s my prayer life? How am I being a good steward of all the God’s given me? Am I open to listening to God?) and my neighbor (Am I putting myself second? How am I acting like the Good Samaritan? How am I loving my wife as Christ did the Church?)

 

[guanophore]

a sense of Deity is inscribed on every heart.

Great quote! But does that mean that a human person is still able to seeks and search for God before they are “saved”?

Where we disagree (please correct me if I’m wrong) is the level thereof.

Or perhaps the quality, or maybe both. Catholics believe that God created humankind as “good” and that sin does not remove this created “good”.

is it possible to give Christ too much credit?

No.

If we agree that we’re depraved (which we do) - then we’re arguing about the level of depravity.

I think it is more the quality of that depravity.

We are entirely and utterly dependent upon Him.

Yes, this is very Catholic.

We would not take “credit” though, for our Fallen state, as it is the consequence of original sin.

The Institutes …an extensive in depth piece of work put together by a lawyer

And a very fine job of lawyering, if I may say so!

there is nothing I can do to lose my salvation

This is more related to the "P’ of the TULIP, but it also bears witness to the disparate views we have of salvation. Catholics, following what was handed down to us from the Apostles, do not separate justification from sanctification. Therefore we see ourselves “working out our own salvation” throughout this lifetime. Calvanists see that a person is “saved” once in time, for all time, and that God will never permit that saved person from falling away from salvation.

 

[guanophore]

The real question for your Calvinist friends MT is this: “How does knowing that you can’t lose your salvation affect your relationship with Christ?” How does that fact make a difference in the way I carry out the 2 great commandments? How does the Perservearance of the Saints exist in tension with “working out our salvation with fear and trembling”?

I think this is a great set of questions, and I also think that the answer given by Calvanists would be very familiar, if not identical to that of Catholics. We will all agree that being saved means that we are to bear the fruit that befits repentance, and that we are to live out the faith into which we have been born again.

 

[TULIPed]

Amen brother.

Merry Christmas.

 

[lagerald24]

Thanks everyone for this chat!

 

[MT1926]

See Philippians 1:6

I’m good with this verse. But from my understanding of Calvin (please correct me if I am wrong), however, I will add that this is how they define it to me. It’s all Jesus and you can’t even cooperate. Basically what they mean when they say nothing they do good or bad can effect their salvation. All I see here is St. Paul being confident that the graces his readers received in Baptism will lead them to the glory of eternal life. I’m not seeing the guarantee that my friends are pointing at? Basically all I see him saying here is God initiates and completes the whole process, I see nothing here that God doesn’t want our cooperation. It’s just they way they present it makes no sense. Hebrews 12:14 tells us to STRIVE for holiness without which no one will see the Lord. Strive means to make great effort. Why do we need to make a great effort? It doesn’t say that the Lord will strive you to holiness? And it seems here if you do not do the striving (with God’s grace) then you will NOT see the Lord.

“How does knowing that you can’t lose your salvation affect your relationship with Christ?”

To me it is a sin of presumption. To proclaim today that I have already achieved my eternal salvation is telling Jesus what He already decided for me. Sure He knows but I don’t. To persevere is to continue in a state of grace to the end of our lives. Perseverance is a steady course of action, especially in spite of difficulties, obstacles and discouragement. Think about a race. If everyone’s guaranteed 1st place why run the racey?

How does that fact make a difference in the way I carry out the 2 great commandments?

If I already know the end results it makes me lazy on the journey. Also, how can something be a command if it is optional?

How does the Perservearance of the Saints exist in tension with “working out our salvation with fear and trembling”?

Sin of presumption. St. Paul teaches just two chapters later…that he does not presume he has already obtained salvation. In verses 12-14 he describes the journey as straining forward in a race to get to the finish line. To believe you won’t trip and fall of the path during the race is the tension that I see.

There’s a lot I have to learn … no better example of a “resounding gong” or a “clanging cymbal”.

AMEN. Totally agree.

Knowing that my perservearnce is a gift from God …

AMEN, just wished it worked this way across the board.

I am reading a book and came across a quote from Martin Luther that before the end of his life he started to notice that his doctrine of faith alone already started to affect the charity of his followers who no longer believed we are required to do good works.

I left the book at home, will try to find it later.

God Bless

 

[lanman87]

Great quote! But does that mean that a human person is still able to seeks and search for God before they are “saved”?

I am not a Calvinist and have only been studying Calvinism for the past couple of years or so. But it is my understanding that man can intellectually and emotionally seek God without the Grace of God acting directly on the person. But that a man can only be truly converted, (regenerated by the Spirit, made a new creation, adopted as sons, being brought from spiritual death to life, and come to faith in Christ) by the grace of God acting through the Holy Spirit on the persons heart. Making the heart of stone to a heart of flesh, if you will.

 

[lagerald24]

Hey Ianman87!

Quick question: Do you believe that God gives sufficient grace to everyone in order that they may be saved? In past conversations with Calvinists, it seems like they deny that God gives grace to everyone. Anyway, just wondering what your thoughts were on this.

 

[guanophore]

I am not a Calvinist and have only been studying Calvinism for the past couple of years or so. But it is my understanding that man can intellectually and emotionally seek God without the Grace of God acting directly on the person. But that a man can only be truly converted, (regenerated by the Spirit, made a new creation, adopted as sons, being brought from spiritual death to life, and come to faith in Christ) by the grace of God acting through the Holy Spirit on the persons heart. Making the heart of stone to a heart of flesh, if you will.

Yes, this is very Catholic.

 

[TULIPed]

I get where you’re coming from MT. Why do (some) Reformed Christians do the things that our Catholic brothers and sisters do if we’re “once saved always saved”? Why don’t we just do whatever we want? Why do Reformed Christians bother going to church? Why do (some of us) tithe? Why do we go on mission trips? Why do we read our Bibles? Why do we confess our sins? Why do we repent? Why do we respond to the Great Commission? Why do we try to love our neighbors as ourselves?

“If”

That’s the operative preposition that drives Calvinist thought when we think about the “P” in TULIP. From Romans 8:

“You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.”

A Calvinist starts the day asking the question - IS the Spirit of God IN FACT dwelling within me? If yes, then I should see fruit of the Spirit. The active agent though is the Spirit - really in spite of me. Any good thing I do is because of, and by the Holy Spirit.

One of the ways a Calvinist works out his salvation with fear and trembling is that he or she is constantly aware of the fact that God in his sovereignty chooses us - and therefore is constantly asking the question, “Am I chosen?” As we look at our lives with that question in mind, we become (like believers who are Catholic or Baptist or Anglican or Method…ok, maybe not Methodists ) increasingly aware of our sinfulness, and more dependent on and thankful for our Savior. We pray for God to soften our hearts - to “circumcise” them as Moses says in Deuteronomy 10.

The “P” in TULIP is thus nothing less than a gift from God. If He in his sovereignty chooses us - nothing in or out of creation can affect his choice. His choice always trumps ours. He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and His thoughts are not our thoughts. Thank God.

 

[Hodos]

Is the image of God in man wounded, or destroyed?

We are spiritually dead in our sin (Ephesians 2:1). The Biblical witness is that apart from Christ we will die in our sin.

Is the human person still able to seek and search for God before they are “saved”?

It is God who justifies (Romans 8:33). Sure a person can seek and search for God all they like, but it is God who justifies (Augustine), not God and man (Pelagius).

That is essentially what Total Depravity teaches. And again, Akins article affirms this is consistent with the Catholic faith. I hope that helps.

 

[MT1926]

I get where you’re coming from MT.

Actually I was trying to understand why do you believe it is a command if it is optional. All of the things you listed are great things and I honestly believe God writes all of those on our hearts so in essence in my opinion you don’t even need to be religious to feel a draw to do these things.

A Calvinist starts the day asking the question - IS the Spirit of God IN FACT dwelling within me? If yes, then I should see fruit of the Spirit. The active agent though is the Spirit - really in spite of me.

You lost me on this one. So what happens if you wake up next week ask yourself this question and you can’t find any fruit of the Spirit coming from you in months? Does this mean that the Spirit no longer dwells in you?

I understand where you are going with this, it seems you are saying something similar to what James White often says. (not sure if you know him or not but he seems to be the die hard Calvinist out there)

All of Jesus statements about good works are descriptive of what a Christian does not prescriptive of what a Christian must do.

I’ve never got a good explanation of how he comes up with this, but when you post the question as “a Calvinist does this at the start of everyday” it got me wondering what happens to the Spirit when a Calvinist can no longer describe their life as “seeing fruit”?

One of the ways a Calvinist works out his salvation with fear and trembling is that he or she is constantly aware of the fact that God in his sovereignty chooses us - and therefore is constantly asking the question, “Am I chosen?”

This is awesome. Because I have to be honest with you, not that I’ve talked to a lot of Calvinists, but none of the ones I ever talked with have put it this way. Their usual response isn’t a question it is usually the statement… I AM chosen!

If He in his sovereignty chooses us - nothing in or out of creation can affect his choice.

I can agree with this. I do believe that God chooses us while at the same time I believe we can not know with 100% certainty that we are chosen. I believe this because of what you say here…

If He in his sovereignty chooses us - nothing in or out of creation can affect his choice. His choice always trumps ours.

His choice always trumps ours. God makes the rules and I believe Jesus gave us a Church so that we can know what those rules are and how to follow those rules. Even if we want to believe that Jesus gave us no rules, or we only need to follow the ones we believe He gave us, this belief or lack their of won’t trump God’s choice.

He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and His thoughts are not our thoughts. Thank God.

AMEN

God Bless