The Five Points of Calvinism or TULIP

[guanophore]

Agreed. Which is why you don’t have to be a Calvinist to be a Christian. You DO have to be kind of grumpy a fair amount to be a Calvinist though.

One of the things that has impacted me the most about Calvanism is that austere approach to faith.

Works done by unregenerate men, although, for the matter of them, they may be things which God commands, and of good use both to themselves and others: yet, because they proceed not from a heart purified by faith; nor are done in a right manner according to the Word; nor to a right end, the glory of God; they are therefore sinful, and cannot please God, or make a man meet to receive grace from God.And yet, their neglect of them is more sinful, and displeasing unto God.

It would be interesting to measure this against some of the unbelieving people God used to work His will, like Cyrus. It seems like a black and white approach, which does not well describe the human condition. I do agree, though that persons who are not living to the glory of God are “missing the mark”, as He desires all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth.

It would also be interesting to discuss the case of Cornelius in regard to the acts of the unregenerate man not making " a man meet to receive the grace of God". That story seems to indicate otherwise.

 

[MichaelP3]

It would be interesting to measure this against some of the unbelieving people God used to work

How do you explain Acts 2:23? Use the Catholic translation if you like?

Regards

 

[guanophore]

because as a non-believer he can’t not be depraved no matter what he does

It probably makes more sense to us if it is said “the depraved is a reference to the corruption throughout human nature.” It is not that humans are completely depraved, but that sin impacts virtually every part of our nature, such that nothing is exempt from it.

Similarly, I don’t do good works because I’m following a list of things to do or not do. I do good works because I love Jesus, he is my King and (thankfully) his Holy Spirit is inside of me changing me daily.

I don’t find it “syrupy” at all, and you will never catch me rolling my eyes at loving father, even if he lets his daughter put makeup on his face!

However, it does not explain why non-Christian parents do the same, when they are not motivated by love for Jesus.

Matthew 7:9- 11 9 Is there anyone among you who, if your child asks for bread, will give a stone? 10 Or if the child asks for a fish, will give a snake? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Romans 2:14-16.

This seems to be a stickler for a Calvanist.

The heresy of Pelagianism was that man could live according to the law and do good works without divine aid. You’re well overextending Pelagianism in your own presentation of it.

I think there is much more to Pelagianism than this. This concept carries that man can also be saved without divine aid.

But Catholics do not believe humans who live according to the law and do good works do so without divine aid. We believe that He has created within each of us a knowledge of His standards (natural law) which can even be known and accessed by the unregenerate. Being made in His likeness and image imprints upon every human soul the pattern of His Divine Nature, such that we seek after Him to find Him, though we do not know Him.

It is God who justifies

No one is claiming that people are justified by their own work. If they are justified, it is because they did, by the nature God created within them, His will.

what if you wake up and ask yourself that question and come to the realization that you aren’t doing good for anyone other than yourself?

What I have been told is that it means they were never really saved in the first place.

 

[guanophore]

The question here is - when we actually DO forgive somebody (which is what our Father requires of us) - who’s responsible for that? A Calvinist would say that the only way I could forgive somebody - really forgive them - is thanks to Christ working in us. Without Him, it’s impossible for us to forgive someone in a way pleasing to our Father.

Catholics would agree with this, and this is why we say that it is not monoergism. We have to make the choice to forgive, and act on that choice. We are made able to do this by His grace, but our will must operate in that grace.

Soli Deo Gloria. (Which I know was coined by Catholics - just because I’m a Reformed Protestant doesn’t mean I can’t rip off all of y’all’s really good stuff!)

You crack me up!

 

[guanophore]

what we’re talking about here is a cultural divide. I’ve been born and bred - literally from the cradle - to believe that anything good I do is because of and only because of Christ. You’ve probably been brought up - literally from the cradle - to believe that you do good works in cooperation with Christ. Maybe one day I’ll convince you otherwise. Maybe one day you’ll convince me. I doubt it either way

Actually, I think it is the same thing. We are just separated by semantics.

It is only God’s creation that results in our human nature. It is only grace that can bring that human nature back into his plan for our lives that was lost at the Fall. It is only His grace that can enable us to “work out” what is already at work in us.

How do you explain Acts 2:23? Use the Catholic translation if you like?
Regards

23 this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law.

You mean, as an example of how God worked through those who were alienated from Him? God can use even the most base evil, such as the murder of His Son, for good. I was thinking more of someone who did good for the people of God.

Cyrus allowed the Jews who were taken into captivity to return to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple. There are other examples of unbelievers who did good to God’s people.

An interesting case might be that of the Centurion in Matt. 7

After Jesus had finished all his sayings in the hearing of the people, he entered Capernaum. 2 A centurion there had a slave whom he valued highly, and who was ill and close to death. 3 When he heard about Jesus, he sent some Jewish elders to him, asking him to come and heal his slave. 4 When they came to Jesus, they appealed to him earnestly, saying, “He is worthy of having you do this for him, 5 for he loves our people, and it is he who built our synagogue for us.”

The disciples think that he is an unbeliever who “deserves” to have a miracle performed for him because he “loves our nation”. They deemed him “worthy” by his actions. As the story concludes, Jesus makes it clear that it was “faith” that was stronger than any he had seen in Israel that enabled Him to work the miracle. A Calvanist might say that the Centurion was already regenerated when he came to Christ, and that is why he had such great faith. Therefore the Jews, who thought one needed to be worthy by doing good deeds, was misdirected.

 

[MichaelP3]

God can use even the most base evil, such as the murder of His Son, for good.

I do need to go to bed but this is very

“Calvinistic”.

Regards

 

[TULIPed]

Actually, I think it is the same thing. We are just separated by semantics.

God bless you Guanophore. It’s thimgs like this that make me think that one day we’ll all be at His table together.

 

[lagerald24]

It was the road to Damascus

True dat. My bad.

 

[lagerald24]

God can use even the most base evil, such as the murder of His Son, for good.

We must keep in mind that the murderer is another agent and is not impelled by God to sin, because God does NOT force anyone to sin (He doesn’t even tempt us as we read in James Ch. 1). God can use the free acts of secondary agents to bring about a greater good.

 

[TULIPed]

And I’m back. Good Christmas party. I was undefeated at ping pong, but 0-fer on the billiard table. You win some, you lose some. Now, on to theology.

The question I ask is when we actually DO NOT forgive somebody… who’s responsible for that?

Me. Consequence of not forgiving is no forgiveness. If memory serves, Jesus said earlier in the Sermon on the Mount that our righteousness needed to surpass that of the Pharisees to get into the kingdom. My grade: F- (on a good day)

I’ve talked to guys in the past who have actually said to me well I don’t know what that verse means but I do know it can’t mean what you say it means because of this verse over here.

We are taught to first try (with the help of the Holy Spirit) to interpret scripture with other scripture, like Jesus does here:

“Then he led him to Jerusalem, made him stand on the parapet of the temple, and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here, for it is written:
‘He will command his angels concerning you,
to guard you,’ and:
‘With their hands they will support you,
lest you dash your foot against a stone.’”
Jesus said to him in reply, “It also says, ‘You shall not put the Lord, your God, to the test.”

when I ask WHY and not just say concentrate on this one and ignore that one.

If a Reformed Christian tells you to ignore a verse of scripture - well, they should have their Reformed card revoked. Now as to “Why?” - you guys invented the whole “mystery of the faith” thing - which I love. There’s a ton of things I think we’ll (maybe) only find out when we get upstairs: Why am I not responsible for being chosen by God, but am responsible for rejecting Him? Why is light a wave and a particle? Why are their only 4 teams in the College National Football Championships? Why do McDonald’s fries taste better than everyone elses? So many why questions to ask when we get to heaven.

 

[lagerald24]

Why are their only 4 teams in the College National Football Championships?

Yeah, it’s kinda lousy. Stick to basketball.

 

[Latin]

Why am I not responsible for being chosen by God, but am responsible for rejecting Him?

Sure, we are not responsible for being chosen by God because our election is His undeserved gift of efficacious grace, but if are end up in hell, because we are rejecting God or because we are simply not chosen/ elected by God?
.
A TIPTOE THROUGH TULIP James Akin

Quote: Thomas Aquinas wrote, God wills to manifest his goodness in men: in respect to those whom he predestines, by means of his mercy, in sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of his justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others.
Yet why he chooses some for glory and reprobates others has no reason except the divine will.

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James Akin speaking;
While the grace it provided is sufficient to pay for the sins of all men, this grace is not made efficacious (put into effect) in the case of everyone.

One may say that although the sufficiency of the atonement is not limited, its efficiency is limited.
This is something everyone who believes in hell must acknowledge because, if the atonement was made efficacious for everyone, then no one would end up in hell. – Something to think about.

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A Catholic also may say that, in going to the cross, Christ intended to make salvation possible for all men, but he did not intend to make salvation actual for all men–otherwise we would have to say that Christ went to the cross intending that all men would end up in heaven. End quote.

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In the light of the above teaching, what do you believe TULIPed, if we are end up in hell, we are end up in hell because we are rejecting God or we are end up in hell, because God does not chosen us and not providing us His limited efficacious graces?

Before you answer the above question please consider.
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH to WILL and to ACT for His good pleasure.

St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.
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Thank you for your answer in advance.
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God bless

 

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

The heresy of Pelagianism was that man could live according to the law and do good works without divine aid. You’re well overextending Pelagianism in your own presentation of it.

Pelagius’ writings themselves said that obedience was by grace. It is not an overextension.

There’s been reconsiderations and more charitable readings given to what Pelagius actually professed based on his own writings, some theologians going so far as to say Pelagius actually was orthodox.

That’s different than the specific heresy Church Fathers such as Saint Augustine condemned (whether or not it’s what Pelagius actually believed). Pelagianism, what was condemned by Augustine, was that we could live by the law and do good works without divine aid.

 

[Wesrock]

My own words here, I’m ‘spitballing’ a bit, but it might be appropriate to say that, for Catholics, the grace of God fixes something broken within us that then allows us to do good of our own free will. That grace doesn’t override our free will or force us to do good, but enables us to do so. We can’t do good without divine aid, but that with divine aid we of our own (repaired) will can do good in cooperation with God.

Perhaps going back to TULIP this is the difference between the Total Depravity of Calvinism and the wounded nature taught by Catholics.

 

[TULIPed]

Romans 9-11 covers this ground fairly extensively - but for brevity’s sake, I believe that we are both entirely reliant on God’s sovereign choice in our election, and I believe we are entirely responsible for our rejection of His grace. As Tim Keller puts it in his commentary on Romans “Romans 8-16 for You”:

“…the Bible holds both of these truths together:

1. The complete sovereignty of God over all history
2. The complete responsibility of every human being for his or her behavior.”

Martyn Lloyd-Jones says it this way:

“…We are responsible for our rejection of the gospel, be we are not responsible for our acceptance of it.”

 

[MT1926]

Me. Consequence of not forgiving is no forgiveness.

I’m back. My son graduated college yesterday. 2 down 3 to go, can’t wait until the last one finishes, I’m excited to see if money is still green.

Thanks for the reply. This get’s us one step closer anyway.

So if we wake up one day and no longer capable of forgive others, and the consequence of us no longer being able to forgive others is no forgiveness for us from God.

What is the consequence of us not receiving forgiveness from God?

I’m going to respond to the rest of your post in another post. I had some questions but really want this one answered and am afraid that my other questions will derail the direction of our conversation.

Be right back.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

My grade: F- (on a good day)

OK I’m back.

Your response here really confused me? Why is your grade an F- on a good day?

I’m guessing you mean on your own it’s an F-, but isn’t Jesus working within you?

When I read Matthew 5 here I see Jesus speaking of the New Covenant, saying that the new covenant isn’t going to be bound by the “righteousness” of the the Mosaic law. He is telling us it is not the law outward signs of the Old Covenant that will Save but the inwardly the New Covenant will penetrate your heart it will transform your personal and private life as well to a maximal standard of holiness to generate saints in the Church.

Based on this, is why I am confused. Shouldn’t a good day, with Christ, be an A++++++++++++++++++?

We are taught …

And what happens when someone takes a verse of scripture interprets it to not only say we can’t earn our own salvation (which I agree with) but if I cooperate I am trying to earn it. They apply this “other scripture” to Baptism and based on this have “no idea” what Peter is saying when he says Baptism now saves you, or what Jesus means by water and spirit. All they do know is it can’t mean what I say it means because if I claim that Baptism is the mode that Jesus intended for us to enter the New Covenant, then I am teaching that we HAVE TO DO SOMETHING in order to be saved. Which I guess according to their theology, of not knowing what those verses mean, is contrary to the Gospel message.

On a side note, not trying to say gotcha, I’ve been accused of that in the past, but where does scripture teach us to interpret scripture using scripture. Not saying that it shouldn’t be done, just saying that I was taught (by oral tradition) that we can use scripture to interpret scripture and as a Catholic I can use my personal interpretations to expand my faith AS LONG AS I don;t interpret something contrary to the deposit of Faith.

they should have their Reformed card revoked.

I’m sorry I can’t pass this one up, but is there a way this can be done in the reformed community? I mean no disrespect but if you have read many of my other posts I am all about authority. For me if you want me to do anything you better first show me who is in charge or put me in charge. Because if the outcome of what you want me to do is vital to our lives I want to know who I need to respect to keep us on the path and who I can ignore before I even start.

Why am I not responsible for being chosen by God, but am responsible for rejecting Him?

Personally I do want an answer now. The Catholic Church gives me the most acceptable answer to this question, that I am willing to accept.

Why do McDonald’s fries taste better than everyone elses?

Not a fan of fast food. Personally, I think the fast food industry has been the downfall to the health of the family in this country. I think once we get to heaven this answer will be the one we all care about more.

God Bless

 

[TULIPed]

I’m back. My son graduated college yesterday.

Congrats. I’ve got a freshman in college, so a bit behind you, but I can definitely relate.

So if we wake up one day and no longer capable of forgive others, and the consequence of us no longer being able to forgive others is no forgiveness for us from God.

We’re commanded to forgive each other 7x70 if memory serves. I wake up every day unable to forgive like that . The only way I can do it even a little is Christ.

What is the consequence of us not receiving forgiveness from God?

Not a good one. I’m sure Noah had some friends who could testify to this.

I’m guessing you mean on your own it’s an F-, but isn’t Jesus working within you?

Correct.

Based on this, is why I am confused. Shouldn’t a good day, with Christ, be an A++++++++++++++++++?

TULIPed:

Very good day. And yet I’m constantly convicted of my sinfulness at the same time. The longer I walk with Jesus, the more I’m convicted of my need for Him and his mercy.

And what happens when someone takes a verse of scripture interprets it to not only say we can’t earn our own salvation (which I agree with) but if I cooperate I am trying to earn it.

Meh. I think we can agree to disagree on the cooperation thing, but I also think if you love Jesus (which by what you write, I think you do), then we are brothers. Brothers disagree on things - sometimes important ones - but we’re still brothers, no?

I am teaching that we HAVE TO DO SOMETHING in order to be saved

We absolutely have to do something - “confess with our mouths and believe with our hearts” to start. Who softens our hearts to make such a confession and belief possible?

On a side note, not trying to say gotcha, I’ve been accused of that in the past, but where does scripture teach us to interpret scripture using scripture.

Jesus does it, Paul does it, so the presumption is that we’re to do it too, with the help of the HS (who can certainly use the church, tradition, or whatever He wants to help us).

I’m sorry I can’t pass this one up, but is there a way this can be done in the reformed community? I mean no disrespect but if you have read many of my other posts I am all about authority.

From the 2nd HC:

“DISCIPLINE. And since discipline is an absolute necessity in the Church and excommunication was once used in the time of the early fathers, and there were ecclesiastical judgments among the people of God, wherein this discipline was exercised by wise and godly men, it also falls to ministers to regulate this discipline for edification, according to the circumstances of the time, public state, and necessity…”

We do the authority thing too.

 

[TULIPed]

Why am I not responsible for being chosen by God, but am responsible for rejecting Him?

You guys have plenty of “mysteries” if memory serves (which I love about the Catholic Church). Our thoughts are not His. Paul speaks of mysteries of the faith. God asks Job if he was around at the foundation of the world. I’m ok with mystery. It makes things more…well, mysterious.

Not a fan of fast food. Personally, I think the fast food industry has been the downfall to the health of the family in this country. I think once we get to heaven this answer will be the one we all care about more.

Yeah - I need to love it less. I never eat fast food, but would love it if I did sadly.

 

[MT1926]

Not a good one. I’m sure Noah had some friends who could testify to this.

It seems that we are in agreement here. This guy here that was born and bred to believe and to claim that he was given the gift of perseverance. Kind of like you say here…

Knowing that my perservearnce is a gift from God makes me thankful for his mercy and convicted of my sinfulness all the more.

Wakes up one morning and is no longer able to forgive, which as you say places him outside of the boat, like some of Noah’s friends. That’s the part that confuses me, why claim to have the gift of perseverance if it is pretty evident that we have no way of knowing if we might wake up like this guy above.

Doesn’t that leave us with only two options? Either we can say this guy lost his salvation, which According to James White Calvinist believe this can’t happen or the guy was never saved to begin with. Which leaves us asking why he claimed to be saved for the first 50 years of his life?

Does this make sense? Or am I making an assumption about some part of this I’m not seeing?

God Bless