The Five Points of Calvinism or TULIP

[lanman87]

Hey Ianman87!

Quick question: Do you believe that God gives sufficient grace to everyone in order that they may be saved? In past conversations with Calvinists, it seems like they deny that God gives grace to everyone. Anyway, just wondering what your thoughts were on this.

Well, I’m not a Calvinist. I was raised a Southern Baptist and was taught that God gives the ability of all who hear the gospel to either accept or reject the gospel message. However, a question was asked of me on this forum that really got me thinking.

Ephesians 2:8 says 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

The question that I was asked is… If the choice to follow Christ is mine to make then isn’t that choice “of my own doing”. Am I not saving myself by making that choice?

And if we are really “Dead in our trespasses and sins” then how do we make a decision? Can dead people decide to be alive?

Obviously this was a blow to the “Choose Christ” teaching and preaching I was raised to believe.

 

[TULIPed]

Am I not saving myself by making that choice?

And if we are really “Dead in our trespasses and sins” then how do we make a decision? Can dead people decide to be alive?

(That sound you hear is every Calvinist in the room standing up and cheering obnoxiously )

From the 2nd HC:

“SIN. By sin we understand that innate corruption of man which has been derived or propagated in us all from our first parents, by which we, immersed in perverse desires and averse to all good, are inclined to all evil. Full of all wickedness, distrust, contempt and hatred of God, we are unable to do or even to think anything good of ourselves. Moreover, even as we grow older, so by wicked thoughts, words and deeds committed against God’s law, we bring forth corrupt fruit worthy of an evil tree (Matt. 12:33 ff.). For this reason by our own deserts, being subject to the wrath of God, we are liable to just punishment, so that all of us would have been cast away by God if Christ, the Deliverer, had not brought us back.”

 

[lagerald24]

Hi Ianman87! Thanks for getting back to me. I think I get what you’re saying.

God gives the ability of all who hear the gospel to either accept or reject the gospel message.

We as Catholics believe that since God desires all men to be saved, 1 Tim. 2:4, and that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Thus, God, in His great love for the world, gives His free gift of grace to all. In regards to us being able to accept His call, that action from start to finish is entirely soaked with grace, which excites our will to be able to choose Him. We are only able to choose Him because He FIRST chose us. We were made for Heaven and there we will be happy with God forever if, entirely by grace, we remain in Him, John 15:4.

Ephesians 2:8 says 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Amen to that! We are only able to have faith and perform good works because of grace.

The question that I was asked is… If the choice to follow Christ is mine to make then isn’t that choice “of my own doing”. Am I not saving myself by making that choice?

As I said earlier, we are able to choose Christ because He first chose us. Also, as Joshua 24:15 says,
"choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”
Just because we accept Christ into our lives, that doesn’t nullify what He has done for us. We aren’t saving ourselves, we are just cooperating with the free gift of grace that has moved our wills to accept the gift of eternal life.

And if we are really “Dead in our trespasses and sins” then how do we make a decision? Can dead people decide to be alive?

we are unable to do or even to think anything good of ourselves

We actually agree that we are dead in our sins. We cannot try to save ourselves by working up grace or merits or anything. The good news is Christ’s grace which has saved us. However, we still have a will and an intellect which, moved by the grace of God, can accept that call, a good example of this would be Paul in Acts Chapter 22. Moved by the grace of God on the road to Emmaus (hope I spelled that right ), Paul was able to accept Christ and be baptized for the forgiveness of his sins. The bottom line is this: We are spiritually dead but not physically dead, i.e. we have the ability to make decisions still. Please keep in mind that every just action we do is sola gratia. This comment was long, so I had to split it up. The rest is below.

 

[lagerald24]

Obviously this was a blow to the “Choose Christ” teaching and preaching I was raised to believe.

In my conversations with my Protestant, esp. Calvinist friends, they seem to contrast the so-called Catholic Church that emphasizes man to their own position that emphasizes God. I get where they’re coming from but I don’t think that’s how I would describe my position. Catholics are mightily concerned with what God has done for us and I’ll tell you, it’s constantly on my mind. The fact that God’s free gift of grace moves my will to accept Him does NOT in any way, shape, or form negate His promises or His providence.

Hope this is helpful everyone! Sorry if it’s a bit on the longish side.

 

[TULIPed]

Catholics are mightily concerned with what God has done for us and I’ll tell you, it’s constantly on my mind.

Agreed. Which is why you don’t have to be a Calvinist to be a Christian. You DO have to be kind of grumpy a fair amount to be a Calvinist though.

 

[ATraveller]

If you start with the premise that a non-believer who is feeding starving children is “totally” depraved because as a non-believer he can’t not be depraved no matter what he does

Totally depraved doesn’t mean incapability of doing any good works. The “depraved” in the term had a slightly different quality in its definition in the 1700’s (?). It’s a reference to complete corruption of human nature.
But even in contemporary usage, we can always refer to one of the confessions to understand it such as the WCF:

Works done by unregenerate men, although, for the matter of them, they may be things which God commands, and of good use both to themselves and others: yet, because they proceed not from a heart purified by faith; nor are done in a right manner according to the Word; nor to a right end, the glory of God; they are therefore sinful, and cannot please God, or make a man meet to receive grace from God.And yet, their neglect of them is more sinful, and displeasing unto God.

The Westminster Confession of Faith - Ligonier Ministries

 

[TULIPed]

I’ve never got a good explanation of how he comes up with this, but when you post the question as “a Calvinist does this at the start of everyday” it got me wondering what happens to the Spirit when a Calvinist can no longer describe their life as “seeing fruit”?

This is not a perfect analogy - but bear with me as I try this out on you. I’m a father to children My title is “Daddy”. There is a prescribed list of things that I should do as a father: take them to practice, tie their shoes, dress them for church, cook for and feed them when mom gets mad at me and goes to have “mommy time” with her friends, which really means goes to a third rate Italian restaurant to drink cheap (thankfully) wine and say mean things that about me to her friends that are mostly true, etc., etc.

I am a father, and I do things that a father does, not because I have to do them, but because I love my kids so much it makes my heart hurt. I’d sacrifice my life for my kids - not because it’s on a list of things I should do as a Father, but because I love my kids to death.

Similarly, I don’t do good works because I’m following a list of things to do or not do. I do good works because I love Jesus, he is my King and (thankfully) his Holy Spirit is inside of me changing me daily.

Ok, as I read this, it’s very syrupy, John Calvin is turning in his grave, all of my Catholic friends here are rolling their eyes, but I’m going to post it anyway because it’s Christmas. So pound sand everybody. Merry Christmas.

 

[lagerald24]

Welcome ATraveller! Thanks for posting!

because they proceed not from a heart purified by faith; nor are done in a right manner according to the Word; nor to a right end, the glory of God; they are therefore sinful, and cannot please God, or make a man meet to receive grace from God

I get what you’re saying here. However, Romans Chapters 1 and 2 have some thing to say on this subject:

“since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.” Romans 1:19-20. Basically, God has made Himself and his law, the Law of Christ, quite clear in the world.

Also, later on in Romans, “(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.” Romans 2:14-16.

These passages seem to show that through the natural light of human reason, God is made manifest to the world. However, anyone who is saved is saved 100% by grace and these passages definitely don’t deny that fact. Also, here’s an article that may be helpful: John Calvin on Implicit Faith | Called to Communion

Hope this is helpful!

 

[lagerald24]

I do good works because I love Jesus, he is my King and (thankfully) his Holy Spirit is inside of me changing me daily.

Amen to that! The Law of Christ: Love the Lord your God with your whole heart, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. We are made for this, let’s live in it.

 

[Wesrock]

It is God who justifies (Romans 8:33). Sure a person can seek and search for God all they like, but it is God who justifies (Augustine), not God and man (Pelagius).

The heresy of Pelagianism was that man could live according to the law and do good works without divine aid. You’re well overextending Pelagianism in your own presentation of it.

It is God who justifies, but this doesn’t preclude man’s free response or the merits received for cooperating with God’s grace, or the increase of justification for them.

 

[Hodos]

The heresy of Pelagianism was that man could live according to the law and do good works without divine aid. You’re well overextending Pelagianism in your own presentation of it.

Pelagius’ writings themselves said that obedience was by grace. It is not an overextension.

 

[MT1926]

feed them when mom gets mad at me and goes to have “mommy time” with her friends, which really means goes to a third rate Italian restaurant to drink cheap (thankfully) wine and say mean things that about me to her friends that are mostly true, etc., etc.

Dude go easy on me. I’m standing on a wobble board here and almost fell off an broke something.

I am a father, and I do things that a father does, not because I have to do them, but because I love my kids so much it makes my heart hurt. I’d sacrifice my life for my kids - not because it’s on a list of things I should do as a Father, but because I love my kids to death.

Similarly, I don’t do good works because I’m following a list of things to do or not do. I do good works because I love Jesus, he is my King and (thankfully) his Holy Spirit is inside of me changing me daily.

I totally agree with everything you say here but it doesn’t really answer my question. Sorry still lost.

We were talking about the Calvinists in my area claiming they are already saved.

You said how does knowing you can’t lose salvation affect your relationship with Christ.

I did an entire post on how this could be considered the Sin of presumption and pointed out how St. Paul and Hebrews depicts it as a race and that we have to strive for the finish line because we can’t know how the race ends.

You seemed to come back to this by saying a Calvinist can know because they start their day asking do I have the Spirit, if yes then I should see fruit.

Which is why I asked what happens if you don’t see fruit anymore?

An explanation of doing good works because you love Jesus (which I totally agree with) doesn’t really answer the question of what if you wake up and ask yourself that question and come to the realization that you aren’t doing good for anyone other than yourself?

Ok, as I read this, it’s very syrupy

Not at all, I have 5 kids and I believe the love I show for them teaches me a lot about the love God has for us. However, I am also fully aware the they can (like my brother did) walk away from that love. Yes my parents still love him very much, heck I go check on my parents 3 to 4 times a week and their first question is have you heard from your brother, but in the end if he doesn’t come back into the family fold he has no way of receiving that love.

God Bless

 

[TULIPed]

Which is why I asked what happens if you don’t see fruit anymore?

Sorry - was responding to your quote from James White (who I don’t know, but I liked the quote you posted).

To answer your question - I hope I’m being pruned:

“2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.”

I’m sure your walk with Christ is much like mine - there are seasons of plenty, and there are seasons in the desert. Sometimes, I feel like my relationship with Christ is firing on all cylinders, my prayer life is first class, I’m doing a decent job on the 2nd commandment - no kidding crucifix Christianity going on.

And then, I find myself in the desert. And for a while, sometimes a good while - it’s dry, arid and seemingly devoid of life. Sometimes the desert manifests itself with sickness, sometimes with a particular sin that I’m struggling with, sometimes just nothing. But usually, especially in the desert - where there appears to be no fruit, is where I get closer to Christ.

So when my branches are bare, and I’m in the desert, I hope - I know - that I’m being pruned so that I can bear more fruit.

 

[MT1926]

Sorry - was responding to your quote from James White (who I don’t know, but I liked the quote you posted).

Sorry about that though you were answering the question you linked. Yes I totally agree that these are all description of the “good works” of a Christian. However, it still doesn’t answer the assertion that James White makes that when Jesus says:

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

James claims this verse means because you have been forgiven you will forgive. Which would be descriptive. But it clearly says if you don’t forgive you will not be forgiven. The passage is prescriptive.

So what happens if you wake up one morning and find yourself to be bitter, unable to forgive.

Don’t get me wrong here I like the answer you give…

To answer your question - I hope I’m being pruned:

HOPE being the highlight of that statement. At the present time, seeing the fruits of the spirit flowing from us, we can say that in these times of troubles we HOPE we are being pruned. But the question still has to be asked. What if we aren’t being pruned, what if we are cutting ourselves off from Christ? Then what? Can we still claim that our future self still can say they have assurance of salvation?

God Bless

 

[TULIPed]

Matthew 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; 15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

The question here is - when we actually DO forgive somebody (which is what our Father requires of us) - who’s responsible for that? A Calvinist would say that the only way I could forgive somebody - really forgive them - is thanks to Christ working in us. Without Him, it’s impossible for us to forgive someone in a way pleasing to our Father.

Soli Deo Gloria. (Which I know was coined by Catholics - just because I’m a Reformed Protestant doesn’t mean I can’t rip off all of y’all’s really good stuff!)

Look MT - what we’re talking about here is a cultural divide. I’ve been born and bred - literally from the cradle - to believe that anything good I do is because of and only because of Christ. You’ve probably been brought up - literally from the cradle - to believe that you do good works in cooperation with Christ. Maybe one day I’ll convince you otherwise. Maybe one day you’ll convince me. I doubt it either way

What I’m sure of though - is that we will both continue to worship and love our shared King. Now I have to go to a Christmas party. Merry Christmas to you and yours MT.

 

[MT1926]

The question here is - when we actually DO forgive somebody (which is what our Father requires of us) - who’s responsible for that? A Calvinist would say that the only way I could forgive somebody - really forgive them - is thanks to Christ working in us. Without Him, it’s impossible for us to forgive someone in a way pleasing to our Father.

Actually that isn’t the question I am asking. Although I do agree with your answer to the question you post.

The question I ask is when we actually DO NOT forgive somebody… who’s responsible for that? and is there any consequences for not forgiving? or is it like James says that Jesus isn’t really teaching us anything here He is just giving us a description of what Christians do?

Look MT - what we’re talking about here is a cultural divide.

I don’t see why it needs to be. Sure our theology might be a cultural divide but I don’t see how a straight forward answer to the meaning of Matthew 6:14 should be based on division.

You’ve probably been brought up - literally from the cradle - to believe that you do good works in cooperation with Christ.

Nope not really, 5 years ago I was one of them there uninformed Catholics. I didn’t know much about my Catholic faith. About the only thing I did know really well is business and what 25 years of owning my own business taught me was without an authority your business is doomed to division, being bought out or failure. When I was challenged on why on earth I would want to be a doomed to hell Catholic it brought me to the books. From their it was easy, if Jesus gave me the ability to understand and succeed in business for 25 years why on earth would I believe that he wouldn’t set up his Church the same way. Jesus gave me so many gifts in my life, not bragging (because I know it is a gift from God) but I am one of those people who can look at something and pretty much figure it out on my own. This gift also made it pretty easy to see that Jesus didn’t want me to figure out Christianity on my own.

So basically, I’m not unable to be convinced because I was born and bred a Catholic I am unable to be convinced because the Catholic Church is the only one willing to answer the hard questions I ask, and doesn’t just keep telling me this is the way it is. I’ve talked to guys in the past who have actually said to me well I don’t know what that verse means but I do know it can’t mean what you say it means because of this verse over here. I look at them like seriously that’s what you were taught and you were willing to accept that answer. That’s why I am Catholic She is the only one willing to answer me when I ask WHY and not just say concentrate on this one and ignore that one.

What I’m sure of though - is that we will both continue to worship and love our shared King. Now I have to go to a Christmas party. Merry Christmas to you and yours MT.

AMEN to that

God Bless

 

[guanophore]

We are spiritually dead in our sin (Ephesians 2:1). The Biblical witness is that apart from Christ we will die in our sin.

We are in agreement on this point, of course. The New Testament was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic.

However, this does not answer my question. Clearly Adam and Eve were still “alive” and could function as human beings, and seek God, despite the fact that they were “dead in their sins”. Sin separates us from God. I think you are saying that being “dead in sin” = not seeking after God and desiring to find Him"?

It is God who justifies (Romans 8:33). Sure a person can seek and search for God all they like, but it is God who justifies (Augustine), not God and man (Pelagius).

Humans only seek after God because He created us with the desire to do so. This is one of the major differences between Catholicism and some Reformed positions I have been told. Many Calvanists have told me that regeneration must occur before a soul will seek for God.

On the contrary, what we have received from Apostles is that the Image of God in which we are created was wounded by sin, but not destroyed. For that reason, we still seek after God to find Him, but we are unable do so without His grace (unmerited favor). Yet, not all those who are drawn to Him by grace will choose to receive his unmerited favor, and thus be justified.

That is essentially what Total Depravity teaches. And again, Akins article affirms this is consistent with the Catholic faith. I hope that helps.

Some, but there are some critical areas where we differ on the state of the unregenerated man.

A Calvinist starts the day asking the question - IS the Spirit of God IN FACT dwelling within me? If yes, then I should see fruit of the Spirit. The active agent though is the Spirit - really in spite of me. Any good thing I do is because of, and by the Holy Spirit.

• nothing in or out of creation can affect his choice. His choice always trumps ours.

This is one of the areas where what we received from the Apostles differs from Calvanism. We are taught that part of being made in His likeness and image is freedom of choice, therefore in His sovereignty He allows us to decide if we want to walk with Him in this life, and share His presence in the next.

 

[guanophore]

"?:

All of Jesus statements about good works are descriptive of what a Christian does not prescriptive of what a Christian must do.

I’ve never got a good explanation of how he comes up with this

I have also been told by Calvanists that these teachings were given to the Jews, and therefore don’t apply to Christians. They were given to set the standard of what God desires, but the Jews, since they were unregenerate, would never be able to fulfill them, just as they could not keep the Law of Moses. Thus, it was a “teaching tool” to make them aware of their need for Christ.

Well, I’m not a Calvinist. I was raised a Southern Baptist

There is a hefty dose of Calvanism among Southern Baptists, because their faith tradition goes back to early Calvanism.

The question that I was asked is… If the choice to follow Christ is mine to make then isn’t that choice “of my own doing”. Am I not saving myself by making that choice?

And if we are really “Dead in our trespasses and sins” then how do we make a decision? Can dead people decide to be alive?

Obviously this was a blow to the “Choose Christ” teaching and preaching I was raised to believe.

These are good questions. Catholics believe that it is not possible for us to choose Christ “by our own doing”. We must be drawn to Him by grace, and it is grace that enables us to make the choice. We cannot emerge from being “dead in sin” by our own power.

“Can dead people decide to be alive” is the critical question, and which begs an answer to what does it mean to be “dead in your sins”.

The apostles taught that people who are dead in their sins can still seek God, and make a choice to respond to His grace. Catholics call it prevenient (before coming) grace, or “drawing grace” that is given to every human being and enables one to choose God.

 

[MichaelP3]

And a very fine job of lawyering, if I may say so!

If you meant a fine job of incorporating the counter arguments as expected then I agree.

If you meant anything else, well then I would ask that you take some time to check it out. I read it in my younger days and found it quite intense. It is not as easy as the Catechism. Remember this was put together by am academic.

Currently I have it on audio and listen it as I drive to work. For some reason I find it more friendly and easier. Yet I am probably not “there yet”.

Regards

 

[guanophore]

By sin we understand that innate corruption of man which has been derived or propagated in us all from our first parents, by which we, immersed in perverse desires and averse to all good, are inclined to all evil.

This seems to fly in the face of common sense, since we all agree that those who are outside of Christ can still do good, and not all are averse to “all good” nor are they all inclined to 'all evil".

Full of all wickedness, distrust, contempt and hatred of God, we are unable to do or even to think anything good of ourselves .

I think the reason what we received from the Apostles is different is that we believe when God created humans and called it “good”, sin (though it separates us from Him) does not destroy this basic Good. For this reason, there are many non-Christians who do bring forth good fruit.

being subject to the wrath of God,

The “wrath of God” is a major element of Calvin’s ideas, maybe because he was a lawyer? It is another aspect of some fundamental differences, though perhaps beyond the scope of this thread?

a good example of this would be Paul in Acts Chapter 22. Moved by the grace of God on the road to Emmaus (hope I spelled that right ), Paul was able to accept Christ and be baptized for the forgiveness of his sins. The bottom line is this: We are spiritually dead but not physically dead, i.e. we have the ability to make decisions still.

It was the road to Damascus, but Paul is a great example of a “Jew among Jews” who was zealous for his faith, but “dead in sins”. He meant well, but until he encountered Christ, did not understand the nature of salvation apart from works.

Please keep in mind that every just action we do is sola gratia.

I think this is not a helpful term in this context. Primarily because it is a farce to have “5 Solas” which are all supposed to be “alone”. If you have more than one “Sola”, then it is not alone anymore! But also because Catholics understand that we move together with the Holy Spirit, as noted in the verse from Ephesians posted above, He has created us for good works, that we should “walk in them”. He enables us, but we must choose to do the walking, so it is no monergistic, as our Reformed siblings claim, but sunergistic(working with Him).