The Five Points of Calvinism or TULIP

[TULIPed]

Wakes up one morning and is no longer able to forgive, which as you say places him outside of the boat, like some of Noah’s friends.

To be clear, what puts us in the boat is not our ability to forgive (thank God), it’s our faith in Christ. Our ability to forgive should improve as we are sanctified by the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. A Calvinist would say that anything and everything we do that is pleasing to God is thanks to Christ and only to Him.

Either we can say this guy lost his salvation, which According to James White Calvinist believe this can’t happen or the guy was never saved to begin with. Which leaves us asking why he claimed to be saved for the first 50 years of his life?

Exactly. Was he never saved to begin with. As you guys would say (and I agree with), only God knows.

 

[Latin]

Romans 9-11 covers this ground fairly extensively - but for brevity’s sake, I believe that we are both entirely reliant on God’s sovereign choice in our election, and I believe we are entirely responsible for our rejection of His grace. As Tim Keller puts it in his commentary on Romans “Romans 8-16 for You”:

“…the Bible holds both of these truths together:

1. The complete sovereignty of God over all history
2. The complete responsibility of every human being for his or her behavior.”

Martyn Lloyd-Jones says it this way:

“…We are responsible for our rejection of the gospel, be we are not responsible for our acceptance of it.”

You said TULIPed;
We are not responsible for our acceptance of the Gospel. I agree with your statement.

I’m sure we both agree God is responsible for our acceptance of the Gospel.

I mostly familiar and reasonably well with Catholic teachings on salvation and I partly know John Calvin’s teachings on salvation (I’m not a Calvinist).
.

1. Please explain the way you believe, God made/ aided his elect to believe the Gospel.
2. Do you believe TULIPed God predestined his elect to heaven?
3. Do you believe TULIPed, is it a possibility that God’s elect predestined to heaven end up in hell?
4. Do you believe TULIPed, someone who is not elected by God, not counted among the predestined to heaven, end up in heaven?

Thank you for your answers in advance.

God bless

 

[TULIPed]

Have a look at the Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed, the 2nd Helvetica Confession and/or the Westminster Confession. That’s a pretty good summary of what I believe. If you really want at deep dive, go do a quick read of Calvin’s Institutes

(Oh, and I believe a whole lot of what’s in the Catholic Catechism as well.)

 

[MT1926]

To be clear, what puts us in the boat is not our ability to forgive (thank God), it’s our faith in Christ. Our ability to forgive should improve as we are sanctified by the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. A Calvinist would say that anything and everything we do that is pleasing to God is thanks to Christ and only to Him.

Totally, agree was not trying to say we are saved by forgiving others. Was just trying to understand the Calvinist point because many tend to skirt the issue.

From the Catholic point of view we can’t earn our salvation by forgiving others, however we can lose our salvation if we don’t, as you say, improve our ability to forgive.

Exactly. Was he never saved to begin with. As you guys would say (and I agree with), only God knows.

Amen to that, only God knows if this guy is saved and only God knows why he claimed to be among the elect the first 50 years of his life.

I wonder if perseverance of the elect just tends to comes across as seeming the person claims to know that they are saved when in actuality we both pretty much mean the same thing.

We fight the good fight and run the race not just having great hope that we will persever til the end and be saved, but actually living our lives (running the race) as if the finish line is within our grasps.

Good discussion.

God Bless

 

[Latin]

Martyn Lloyd-Jones says it this way:

“…We are responsible for our rejection of the gospel, be we are not responsible for our acceptance of it.”

I believe and I can prove the above statement is a Theological and logical fallacy.

The above statement practically means;
We are responsible for our rejection of the gospel, and God is responsible for our acceptance of the Gospel.

.
We are CAN NOT be responsible for our rejection of the gospel because without God’s recreation and without His efficacious graces we could not be able to believe/ accept the Gospel and to say yes to God’s call us to heaven.
.
Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH to WILL and to ACT for His good pleasure.”

St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.

.
For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the Divine will or power is called fate.

But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God.
Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.

The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.

.
John 6:44; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.

While St. Thomas says that man turns to God by his own free will, he explains that free-will can only be turn to God, when God turns it.

.
John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.

Jesus is very clear, our fates are not in us but our fates are in God and in His Universal Salvific Will, I also believe He has chosen and predestined everyone of us.

.
This is the way God prepares us to say YES to His gift of salvation.

CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
.
CCCS 1996-1998; Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will. End quote.
.
We are not puppets because with His efficacious graces God enlightens our minds end we freely choose the good.

.
Our salvation and our predestination is God’s gifts, it is SOLELY God’s decision without regard to any future supernatural merits (prævisa merita), our life in this side of eternity plays big role on our glories and our positions in heaven but plays ZERO role on our predestination.
.
God bless

 

[prayerrider]

" * Limited atonement (Catholic: the atonement was limited in that God only intended it to be efficacious for the elect, but sufficient for all),"
Exactly. And the elect are those who God knows will persevere until the end. They will sin, but they will seek the Sacraments of Reconciliation and the Eucharist, again and again, no matter how many times they fall from grace, into sin. Christ gave us these holy Sacraments that we might be restored to and remain in His grace and be spiritually nourished by them.

 

[Latin]

Yes God knows every elect persevere until the end.

How could they not persevere to the end when at their Initial Justification every elect receives God’s special efficacious grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, without this special efficacious grace every elect would end up in hell. – Infallible teachings of the Trent. + Formal teachings of the Catholic Church.

So, God does not looking who will persevere to the end because without His special efficacious grace The Gift of Final Perseverance every elect would end up in hell.

God bless

 

[SFJoseph]

Can I just say as a person that was raised Methodist and confirmed Presbyterian . In the Presbyterian faith we know that John Calvin took most of his teaching from St. Augustine? I am sure you were you aware of that?

 

[straykat]

TULIP must’ve been the beginning of Protestants’ proclivity for goofy slogans, “branding”, and Bumper Sticker Christianity … even before they knew what to call it.

 

[TULIPed]

Yep. I loves me some City of God!!

 

[Vico]

…

And sufficient grace because God does not cause his children to fall, but they do so through their own free will.

 

[MT1926]

In the Presbyterian faith we know that John Calvin took most of his teaching from St. Augustine? I am sure you were you aware of that?

Yes he did, but Calvin formed his teachings on what he thought St. Augustine meant and not what St. Augustine actually taught.

Here’s a good article…

https://www.catholic.com/index.php/qa/augustine-had-it-right-calvin-did-not

God Bless

 

[Latin]

prayerrider:

…

And sufficient grace because God does not cause his children to fall, but they do so through their own free will.

Vico do you know, apart from the predestined of the elect to heaven, who is the one who predestined the rest of the human race not to go to heaven?

God bless

 

[lagerald24]

Hey there Latin!

So, am I correct to say that you believe that everyone who is initially justified will persevere to the end? Or that it is possible, aside from revelation, to know that you are in the elect in this life? You see, the Catholic Church is totally okay with using the word ‘elect’ as meaning those who will persevere to the end by the grace of God. We cannot, however, have an absolute assurance, except by revelation, that we will have final perseverance and be among the elect in Heaven. Augustine believed this, as shown in his work, “On the Gift of Perseverance.” Anyhow, these clarifications/definitions may be useful:

1. Perseverance of the Elect: All of the elect of God (those who’ve been predestined by God for salvation) are recipients of the grace of final perseverance – all will be justified, grow in sanctification, persevere to the end and be saved.
2. Perseverance of the Saints: Any person who has at any time been justified will ever remain justified, will grow in sanctification, and will persevere to the end and be saved.

Thanks and God Bless your day!

 

[TULIPed]

Totally, agree was not trying to say we are saved by forgiving others. Was just trying to understand the Calvinist point because many tend to skirt the issue.

Yep - I know you do. That was more “for the record” given the open forum nature of our discussion.

From the Catholic point of view we can’t earn our salvation by forgiving others, however we can lose our salvation if we don’t, as you say, improve our ability to forgive.

TULIPed:

And our view is that “if in fact” you are in relationship with Christ, his gift of grace is “irrevocable” (Romans 11:29). If you’ll permit me, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that you guys would argue that Romans 11:22 is operative:

"See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. "

It’s a good argument. I’d be curious to hear @Hodos interpretation here. I would say though that, for me, the Reformed analysis of the thrust of the entire NT would support the Calvinistic interpretation. But I see your side too.

I wonder if perseverance of the elect just tends to comes across as seeming the person claims to know that they are saved when in actuality we both pretty much mean the same thing.

We fight the good fight and run the race not just having great hope that we will persever til the end and be saved, but actually living our lives (running the race) as if the finish line is within our grasps.

I think you’re right on here. There’s a difference between the gift of the “Assurance of Pardon” and the P in TULIP. Personally I think the AoP is pretty rare. I must say though that as I look back at my life and the ways that I’ve changed, it would be strange if Christ weren’t involved somehow.

Good discussion.

Agreed. Merry Christmas MT.

 

[lagerald24]

without His efficacious graces we could not be able to believe/ accept the Gospel and to say yes to God’s call us to heaven.

Amen to that!

While St. Thomas says that man turns to God by his own free will, he explains that free-will can only be turn to God, when God turns it.

Righto!

I think I get what your saying and I am in agreement with you. As a Thomist, I believe that God predestines us out of His good will and not because of foreseen actions. So, I agree with Calvinists in that sense but not in the sense of double-predestination.

“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace (CCC 600).”

So, all who are predestined for heaven are thus because of God’s good will, the primary causality which is followed by our secondary causality. However, I don’t deny that God offers to all the real possibility of salvation. He does. Whether or not we will finally be counted among the elect depends first of all upon the call and “election” of God; but, secondarily, it relies upon our free response to his call and our persevering in the grace of his call until the end.

Hope this is helpful and makes sense!

 

[Hodos]

I am sorry, I am not sure what you would like me to comment on. Can you clarify? I would be glad to give my take.

 

[TULIPed]

Have a look at Romans 11:29. I think our Catholic friends would argue (and perhaps many Protestants as well - I haven’t had a moment to dust off a commentary or 2 on this) that this passage would support the ability for us to lose our faith. Said another way, it’s an argument against the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints. On the other hand, Romans 11:22 states that God’s gift of grace (and election) is irrevocable. What say you?

 

[MT1926]

And our view is that “if in fact” you are in relationship with Christ, his gift of grace is “irrevocable” (Romans 11:29).

I think you know us Catholics pretty well. Yep we would definitely look at verse 22 to come to an understanding of the word “irrevocable”.

The word irrevocable is often used in a legal context. It basically means that the person who makes the promise guarantees they will not break their promise. So when we read verse 29 we understand the word irrevocable as a promise from God that He will not, for any reason no longer provide us with the gift of grace and the call to Love Him. He promises, in a legal sense, that He will not take back that which He gave us even before we came to Him. However, from verse 22 it makes it clear that if we don’t remain in His kindness we will be cut off. God’s kindness is the irrevocable part not us remaining.

That’s the Catholic understanding here sure God won’t revoke His kindness but we are free to no longer accept it, at which point we are cut off.

Merry Christmas MT.

Marry Christmas to you and your family as well.

God Bless

 

[Hodos]

I see a little of both here. While I don’t subscribe to it, I don’t have a huge issue with Calvin’s doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints, because to me, it tends to be a semantics issue. Calvin’s view seems to be, the elect receive God’s grace, therefore God will ensure that the Holy Spirit works faith in the elect so that they will persevere in their faith. The Small Catechism says something similar in its explanation of the Third Article of the Apostle’s Creed: “I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith…”

That being said, while Lutherans believe we cannot come to faith apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, we can reject God’s grace. This would explain why we have the number of books and passages (Hebrews and Revelation for example) that exhort the Church to remain steadfast in their faith.

That being said, we need to back up to Romans 11:2 to discuss Romans 11:22. The question here is whether the “people whom God foreknew” that God has not rejected refers to Israel or to individuals. I believe that this applies to Israel as a nation, not necessarily individuals. I agree that God has maintained a remnant, but I think that the warning in verses 20-22 is that we stand by faith, not by virtue of a lineage or any other means. This makes sense in light of Romans 1:17, which states that the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith (ek pistews eis pistiv). The best translation I have seen is given by the NIV, stating that the righteousness of God is revealed that is by faith from first to last.

Not sure if that clarifies.