The Five Points of Calvinism or TULIP

[Catholic_Dude]

The Calvinist view of “Total Depravity” is actually based on the fact Calvinism is Pelagian at its very core:

Protestant Objections to the Catholic Doctrines of Original Justice and Original Sin | Called to Communion

 

[Catholic_Dude]

And Limited Atonement is based on a completely wrong view of the Cross and Atonement, which Protestants call “Penal Substitution”. This blog has many articles on Calvinism with unique looks at tough issues (e.g. Romans) that you wont see on most apologetics sites, including CatholicAnswers:

https://catholicnick.blogspot.com/search/label/Penal Substitution

 

[lagerald24]

Very cool! Thanks for posting it here @Catholic_Dude!

 

[Latin]

Latin:

Vico do you know, apart from the predestined of the elect to heaven, who is the one who predestined the rest of the human race not to go to heaven?

God bless

Catholics deny double predestination. God has given the angels and humans free will and sufficient grace such that God will not be responsible for damnation, for God generally wants the salvation of all.

Titus 2:11: "the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men "

When I was a Protestant (without protested anything) I believed double predestination.

Now as I’m a Catholic I don’t believe double predestination because I believe the fulfilment of God’s Universal Salvific Will.

As the whole Catholic Church (CCC 1058) praying for Universal Salvation I believe God designed and provides the salvation of the entire human race.
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Eph.1:11; In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will. – Which is God saves everyone.

So, how could I believe double predestination!!!

If I would believe double predestination, technically I would have to believe some people will end up in hell and I would also have to believe, the God who I believe in He is really not an Almighty God because He doesn’t have the power and enough efficacious grace to aide everyone to choose heaven and to make his Universal Salvific Will a reality.
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Makes no difference how we cut it, it is the Creator’s RESPONSIBILITY to take his creations home to heaven.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

…

Belief in double predestination is not necessary for the certainty that some will end in hell.

God gives free will that angels and mankind can each potentially be divinized, even though that freedom has the consequence of some certainly choosing damnation.

• Suffrages are of no profit to the damned in Hell as they do not belong to the Mystical Body of Christ. (Sent. communis.)

 

[Latin]

Latin:

…

God gives free will that angels and mankind can each potentially be divinized, even though that freedom has the consequence of some certainly choosing damnation.

Vico, our free wills are REGULATED by the will of God. – Only God has an absolute free will.

We not only CAN NOT choose damnation, we cannot even do a smallest act of sin without God’s permission and without his cooperation by providing the powers of operation for us which enables us to commit the act of sin and the sin preordained from all eternity.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.

His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
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He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
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God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.
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Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
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Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”
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Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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All things are created and governed with a view to man, to the development of his life and his intelligence, and to the satisfaction of his needs (Aristides; Apol. i, v,).
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That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm

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It is very important to understand Vico the crux of the reason God permits sin/ evil.

As it is follow this is the crux of the matter, the ONLY REASON God permits evil and sin to convert our PERMITTED sins into good. – Sins not permitted we cannot do.

His wisdom He orders all events within the universe, evil and sins are ministers to God’s design, no would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil.

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For Augustine says (De Civ. Dei v, 1) that the Divine will or power is called fate.

But the Divine will or power is not in creatures, but in God.
Therefore fate is not in creatures but in God.

The Divine will is cause of all things that happens, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 1 seqq.). Therefore all things are subject to fate.

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Vico, the greatest truth is; our fates/ destinies are not in us, our fates/ destinies are in God.

When we will learn the above truth, we will all know our salvation is not our business, it is God’s business and our business is to do the works of Jesus.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

…
When we will learn the above truth, we will all know our salvation is not our business, it is God’s business and our business is to do the works of Jesus. …

God allows mankind free will (not absolute freedom) such that an individual is responsible for damnation, for God provides sufficient grace that it is possible to avoid damnation if the angel or person chooses it.

Two dogmas are that:

• The human will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible.
• There is grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious.

 

[Latin]

Let’s see Vico mankind’s free wills which is not aided with efficacious graces.

The Council of Sens (1140) condemned the idea that free will is sufficient in itself for any good. Donez., 373.
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Council of Orange (529)
In canon 20, entitled hat Without God Man Can Do No Good. . . Denz., 193; quoting St. Prosper.

In canon 22, says, “ No one has anything of his own except lying and sin. Denz., 194; quoting St. Prosper.

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Catholic Encyclopedia Divine Providence says,
Life everlasting promised to us, but unaided we can do nothing to gain it.

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As we see above Vico, without God’s aids/ gifts of efficacious graces the free will we have we could choose ONLY lying and acts of sins and the pains of hell.

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But God has a silver bullet, called God’s special UNDESERVED efficacious grace The Gift of Final Perseverance.

According to the Infallible Teachings of the Trent and this is also a Formal Teachings of the Catholic Church; everyone who receives this special UNDESERVED grace The Gift of Final Perseverance (every elect receives it at baptism and no one else, without this special grace every elect would end up in hell) has everlasting happiness in heaven and those who don’t get this special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance all of them has everlasting life in the pains of hell.

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THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION by John Salza. Page 119;

Hence, a sufficient grace has an operating effect only (empowering the will to act),

whereas an efficacious grace has both an operating and cooperating effect (applying the will to act).

Sufficient grace remains an interior impulse, whereas an efficacious grace produces an exterior act.

When God wills a person to perform a salutary act (e.g., prayer, good works), He grants him the means (an efficacious grace) that infallibly produces the end (the act willed by God).

With efficacious grace, man is able to resist the grace but does not, because the grace causes him to freely choose the good. End quote.

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Phil.2:13; For it is God who works in you BOTH to WILL and to ACT in order to fulfil his good purpose.

St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.

2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man.

Acts.13:48; … all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

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Our salvation is UNDESERVED God’s gift of efficacious grace, not we are who appoint ourselves to eternal life/ heaven, God does the appointing. – If even one elect would reject it, God would instantly lose His omniscience (DE FIDE).

As you see above Vico, the greatest truth/ fullness of the truth is; our fates/ destinies are not in us, our fates/ destinies are in God.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

…

I stick with the dogma of the Church which holds that the one ending in hell is responsible for that condemnation through free will, and that man can do good naturally without grace, but that good is not salvific, rather it is through grace that we are either saved or given the potential to choose freely. God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection. (De fide.)

 

[Latin]

Lutheran doctrine similarly denies that “free will” exists, for good reason. When we speak of “free will” this is specifically in the context of salvation and our ability to effect salvation.
We would say that as creatures, man does not have free will, we have contingent will.
This means our will is contingent upon God’s will for us.

It is a clear and excellent explanation of the crux of the matter of the will.
I would not want to change it, I only like add to it.

Our unaided wills with efficacious graces is in bondage of corruption, useful ONLY for lying and to do acts of sins and choose the pains of hell.
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Our wills need to be liberated with God’s gifts of efficacious graces which enables our wills to infallible produces the good act willed by God.

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OUR UNAIDED WILLS ARE IN BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION

Our unaided wills = Useful ONLY for lying and to do acts of sins and to choose the pains of hell.

Some people call this unaided will “free will” which is not free at all but this called “free will” is in bondage to sin and death.

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THE LIBERATION OF OUR WILLS WITH EFFICACIOUS GRACES

Our unaided wills + God’s efficacious graces. = Our liberated wills, now free wills which enables our free wills to infallible choose and produces the good willed by God.

When our wills combined with God’s gifts of efficacious graces, we can say we have free wills and in fact this free wills theologically contingent or aided free wills, which infallible choose and produces the good.
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At the point when our wills combined together with God’s efficacious graces, Phil.2:13; CCC 2022; etc. fulfilled in us, our wills are liberated and by our contingent/ aided free wills infallible choose and produce the good willed by God.
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Phil.2:13; For it is God who works in you BOTH to WILL and to ACT in order to fulfil his good purpose.

Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.

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Catholic Encyclopedia Divine Providence says;
God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities. – As we see, God is not only acts in and with us but He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.
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2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. – With other words, our wills are liberated and by our free wills infallible choose and produce the good.

(Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3). God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. … – After the liberation of our wills, because we freely choose the good willed by God, we can call our wills free wills or contingent/ aided free wills.

Because God effects/ causes our willing and achievement, theologically more correct to call our wills contingent/ aided free wills.
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God bless

 

[Marp]

Does God get the final judgement. What if he judges different than the Catholic Church? There is scripture to back up Gods final judgement. [James 4:12)
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor? Will he follow the theology and all teachings of the Catholic Church? Is our theology absolute truth? Whether Cavanists or Roman Catholic do the points of being right ever seem to trivial to God. For me you have to have a great memory or a theologian. As faithful servants do we have authority to call out the unsaved. Or do we debate the two according to our different rules. Actually it sounds like we both take salvation seriously.

 

[lagerald24]

Does God get the final judgement. What if he judges different than the Catholic Church? There is scripture to back up Gods final judgement. [James 4:12)

Of course, all Catholics believe that God is the final Judge and He will render every man according to his works as Romans 2:6 tells us. Since Christ established One Church and since we know the Catholic Church to be that Church, God’s Revelation is made known to us through that One True Church.

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor? Will he follow the theology and all teachings of the Catholic Church?

Since the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ, it’s teachings are correct and convey God’s plan for our lives. We are told in the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit will guide us all into Truth. That Truth (Capital ‘T’) is the man Jesus Christ who has delivered God’s Revelation once and for all to the Holy Catholic Church. We have confidence in the promises of Christ that “the gates of Hell will not prevail against the Church” as we read in Matt. Chapter 16:18. Through the Church, God’s plan of Salvation is made manifest and teaches us everything we need to know in order that we may live with Christ forever in Heaven. We should be very grateful for this guide which God has given us to lead us on this Earth.

As faithful servants do we have authority to call out the unsaved. Or do we debate the two according to our different rules. Actually it sounds like we both take salvation seriously.

For sure. However, Christ established One, visible Church, not two. There is but One Gospel and One Truth. We know that the Catholic Church has the promise of Christ’s authoritative power to guide its flock to Heaven.

 

[lagerald24]

Ultimately, @marp, as Christians, we need a guide. The ship of our Church needs a captain who acts on behalf of the Ultimate and Sovereign Kingship of Jesus Christ. When He ascended into Heaven, Jesus did not intend to leave us as orphans, separated from Him and left to trailblaze the path of Christian truths by ourselves. In other words, Jesus did not teach or intend us to follow sola scriptura, for we are told in 2nd Peter 3:16 that there are confusing parts of Scripture which people twist to their own destruction. Like the Ethiopian servant in the book of Acts, we can be puzzled when we approach the Bible. Like the servant, we need an authority to help us understand the truths of the faith that was revealed by God through the Word Made Flesh, Jesus Christ. Instead of competing denominations who each present their own various versions of the Gospel, Jesus gave us One, authoritative Church which is the “pillar and foundation of truth” as 1st Tim. 3:15 tells us.

Please note, however, that other members of the Body of Christ in other denominations are our brothers and sisters in Christ. We have communion with them, though an imperfect and lacking communion. In the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, we find that complete union with Christ and we are truly one in Christ: Our communion is at its fullest. As a Catholic, I desire for all Christians to be One in Christ. Jesus Himself desires and indeed prayed for it in John 17:11 when He desired for all His followers might be One, as He and the Father are One.

 

[lagerald24]

Ultimately, in regards to complex questions and teachings like predestination, free will, and others, we should trust in the teachings of the One True Church as guided by the Holy Spirit. Augustine himself subscribed to this as shown in his letter to the heretic Mani. He says, “The succession of priests, from the very see of the apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after his resurrection, gave the charge of feeding his sheep (John 21:15-17), up to the present episcopate, keeps me here.”

 

[Marp]

My question now is how can we be so bold to deny Christ followers their salvation because they are not Catholic? The church in the Bible is so much simpler 2:42-47. and followers were noted as their lives were changed by the Holy Spirit. John 3,6-8. Was it more about being saved than mans judgement or vice versa?

 

[lagerald24]

My question now is how can we be so bold to deny Christ followers their salvation because they are not Catholic?

Actually, it is not Catholic teaching that only card-carrying Catholics can be saved. All of us Christians are brethren in Christ Jesus. I find the fullness of my relationship with Christ in the One True Church that He established in the fullness of time.

The church in the Bible is so much simpler 2:42-47.

I get your question and it is a valid point to bring up. However, though, it’s sort of like saying, “How can that colossal oak tree once have been that little acorn years ago?” We must remember that the acorn, as time moved on, grew in size and maturity, much also like us humans. So is the One Church that Christ established. Rather than complicating simple teachings, the Church is like a vibrant garden coming to life from humble seeds. The Early Church is undoubtedly the same Church we have now, but, life the acorn, it has grown in knowledge and understanding of the Revelation revealed once and for all by Christ. It really makes sense if you think about it. God is immeasurable and incomprehensibly awe-inspiring and beyond us in His grandeur and magnificence. It only makes sense that the One Church He has given us should share in His greatness and beauty but never losing its love, humility, and roots.

 

[lagerald24]

followers were noted as their lives were changed by the Holy Spirit. John 3,6-8. Was it more about being saved than mans judgement or vice versa?

Ultimately, our life is about our membership in the Body of Christ and our relationship with the all-loving God who so desires for us to be happy with Him forever in Heaven. Some can be bogged down by all the seemingly complex teachings of Catholicism. However, rather than being man-made or super strict and bossy, I find that through the One Church established by Christ, we may have the best possible relationship with Jesus, especially through the Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, which is the source and summit of our faith for it truly is a partaking in the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ. The Catholic Church isn’t here to boss everyone around. Rather, it speaks and teaches on behalf of Christ, preaching the fullness of Truth, leading us in the end to eternal life with God in Heaven.

 

[Marp]

One true church because of the rock?

 

[lagerald24]

Yes. Jesus changed Peter’s name from Simon to Peter or literally “Rock”. In the Bible, when people’s names are changed, it signifies to us that something really important is going on, like with Abraham or other Old Testament figures. The fact that Simon’s name is changed to Peter or “Rock” gives us the idea that he is to be a foundation of a sorts. We read in Matthew 16:17-19, " 17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.”

Peter and those men to whom he would hand on his mission, have a unique calling given to them by Christ to lead the One True Church on this battlefield of Earth. We trust in the authority given to these men by Jesus. Like the Perfect Shepard Jesus is, the Pope has been given the great task of leading the Church to Jesus.

 

[Marp]

Does it matter if reference to Christ being our rock is plentiful. Could the reference to building the church on this rock actually be on the teachings of Christ alone? Did not the apostles spread out to all areas, all directions sharing the promises of Christ. Why would Rome think they were the correct church. What would be beneficial from the other apostles spreading the word an creating new churches in territory covered?