The four Marian dogmas

[Scottgun]

On another thread, a non-Catholic is trying to claim that Catholics are not required to believe things like the Assumption and perpetual virginity. Cobblers.

The four Marian dogmas are:

1. Mary conceived by the Holy Ghost without the cooperation of man. (De fide.)
2. Also after the Birth of Jesus Mary remained a Virgin. (De fide.)
3. Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven. (De fide.)
4. Mary was conceived without stain of original sin. (De fide.)

De fide teachings are formally defined teachings and as such Catholics must believe them both exteriorally and interiorly. Lips and hearts in a manner of speaking.

RED DISCLAIMER: This thread is NOT about arguing the truth of the dogmas themselves. Plenty of other threads do that. The purpose of this thread is see if anyone seriously denies that the Church teaches these as binding on the Catholic faithful and on what grounds.

Scott

 

[Blue_Serenity]

On another thread, a non-Catholic is trying to claim that Catholics are not required to believe things like the Assumption and perpetual virginity. Cobblers.

The four Marian dogmas are:

1. Mary conceived by the Holy Ghost without the cooperation of man. (De fide.)
2. Also after the Birth of Jesus Mary remained a Virgin. (De fide.)
3. Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven. (De fide.)
4. Mary was conceived without stain of original sin. (De fide.)

De fide teachings are formally defined teachings and as such Catholics must believe them both exteriorally and interiorly. Lips and hearts in a manner of speaking.

RED DISCLAIMER: This thread is NOT about arguing the truth of the dogmas themselves. Plenty of other threads do that. The purpose of this thread is see if anyone seriously denies that the Church teaches these as binding on the Catholic faithful and on what grounds.

Scott

The only one of those that I have a problem with is #4. The translations have pointed out the vagueness of that claim.
Other than that, I’m with the Catholics 100% on the rest of it.

 

[Scottgun]

The only one of those that I have a problem with is #4. The translations have pointed out the vagueness of that claim.
Other than that, I’m with the Catholics 100% on the rest of it.

Thanks, but that is not the question. The question is, does the Church teach these four things and does it teach them as binding on anyone calling themselves Catholic? My guess is that most, Catholic and non-Catholic, say yes.

Scott

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Thanks, but that is not the question. The question is, does the Church teach these four things and does it teach them as binding on anyone calling themselves Catholic? My guess is that most, Catholic and non-Catholic, say yes.

Scott

I don’t see why it would be necessary to believe them but just accept them as teaching.

 

[Scottgun]

I don’t see why it would be necessary to believe them but just accept them as teaching.

I’ll let others chime in, but just reiterate that if it is a formally defined dogma, a Catholic must believe it. He is not required to think it is the most important aspect of the faith, and he doesn’t necessarily have to understand it fully, but he must assent that the four above are true just as he must assent that God is one divine nature in three persons.

Scott

 

[Blue_Serenity]

I’ll let others chime in, but just reiterate that if it is a formally defined dogma, a Catholic must believe it. He is not required to think it is the most important aspect of the faith, and he doesn’t necessarily have to understand it fully, but he must assent that the four above are true just as he must assent that God is one divine nature in three persons.

Scott

So does that mean that Catholics must accept these in order to attain salvation?

 

[Scottgun]

So does that mean that Catholics must accept these in order to attain salvation?

Let me ask: Does someone have to believe God is one divine nature in three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) in order to attain salvation?

Scott

 

[Scottgun]

So does that mean that Catholics must accept these in order to attain salvation?

If you want to start a thread on how salvation relates to belief, go for it. Right now I’m trying to establish that the Church teaches these things and both requires and expects the faithful to believe them. The ramifications of not believing them is certainly a worthy topic, so I’m not trying to bust your chops, but to take one issue at a time.

Briefly: 1. The Church teaches these things–I think only a true space cadet would say otherwise. Done.

1. The Church binds the faithful to give assent to these teaches–that is what I am trying to establish.
2. What if one rejects the teachings?–step three. We ain’t there yet.

Scott

 

[Blue_Serenity]

If you want to start a thread on how salvation relates to belief, go for it. Right now I’m trying to establish that the Church teaches these things and both requires and expects the faithful to believe them. The ramifications of not believing them is certainly a worthy topic, so I’m not trying to bust your chops, but to take one issue at a time.

Scott

Ok. Gotcha!
Btw, I love your signature!!!

 

[calchiquita]

Well, I’m a convert. The way I understood it, if I didn’t believe these, I wasn’t ready to be a Catholic. I never ever heard that they were “pick and choose”.

 

[Scottgun]

Ok. Gotcha!
Btw, I love your signature!!!

Thanks!

 

[hoosierdaddy]

On another thread, a non-Catholic is trying to claim that Catholics are not required to believe things like the Assumption and perpetual virginity. Cobblers.

The four Marian dogmas are:

1. Mary conceived by the Holy Ghost without the cooperation of man. (De fide.)
2. Also after the Birth of Jesus Mary remained a Virgin. (De fide.)
3. Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven. (De fide.)
4. Mary was conceived without stain of original sin. (De fide.)

De fide teachings are formally defined teachings and as such Catholics must believe them both exteriorally and interiorly. Lips and hearts in a manner of speaking.

RED DISCLAIMER: This thread is NOT about arguing the truth of the dogmas themselves. Plenty of other threads do that. The purpose of this thread is see if anyone seriously denies that the Church teaches these as binding on the Catholic faithful and on what grounds.

Scott

I have a feeling you are talking about me although I never once denied all four of those “dogmas”. I ONLY agree with number 1. The rest I disagree with and so do many Catholics. In fact, many Catholics ON THIS SITE have said that they weren’t necessary to believe. So if you were calling “me” a “space cadet” you’d better apply that to your fellow Catholics.

Prove to me FROM SCRIPTURE points 2, 3, and 4. You can’t do it.

Signed,
space cadet HD (about to be promoted to Captain) (Moderator Note: That would be only Ensign:

 

[Pjs2ejs]

These are dogmas of the Catholic Church. They are to be believed. If you don’t, then you are not in union with the church. You, in essence, are your own Pope.

Now, no one says these are easy to understand. And noone is forcing you to pray rosaries, etc. That is not mandatory.

 

[Della]

1. Mary conceived by the Holy Ghost without the cooperation of man. (De fide.)

I just wanted to throw down a red flag on this one. What you mean to say is:

“Mary conceived Jesus in her womb by the Holy Ghost…”

Yes?

I can just see someone thinking you meant that Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost.

Sorry for being so picky, but I just thought it ought to be clarified for those who read it like I did at first–that you meant that Mary was conceived by the Holy Ghost.

 

[st_lucy]

These are dogmas of the Catholic Church. They are to be believed. If you don’t, then you are not in union with the church. You, in essence, are your own Pope.

Now, no one says these are easy to understand. And noone is forcing you to pray rosaries, etc. That is not mandatory.

I agree!
The CCC paragraph 87 states: Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles:“He who hears you, hears me,” the faithful receives with docility the teaching and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

I think that the key word is docility. In our world today we think that being docile means to be weak. If you are a true Catholic, you most know that Christ is the Head of His own Church, and that He works through His apostles(the magisterium) to teach His disciples (us).

Now does that mean that we are to believe that our understanding will come easy to us? No of course not, these are hard things for us mere humans to swallow. But as Christ asked His apostles, “Do you also want to leave?”

Now the CCC also has this to say about Dogmas in paragraph 89:… Dogmas are lights along the path of faith; they illuminate it and make it secure.

Isn’t God so good to give the magisterium to help us in our journey toward Him!

I know that this really doesn’t help in weather we are required to believe the dogmas as far as documents go. But I am sure someone will come around to point you to the correct documentation. But I believe that the CCC does state that we should believe them.

 

[joshua_b]

I think it is also important to add that, while it is required that these be accepted as Truth, “doubt” is not the same as “disbelief”, and furthermore ONLY the teaching AS INFALLIBLY DEFINED is required to be accepted. A good example is the Assumption of Mary.

It has been infallibly declared that Mary was assumed into heaven. It has never been declared whether or not Mary physically died first. Therefore we are free to hold differing opinions or conflicting theology on whether or not Mary died without being in opposition to Church teaching. Many times I see posters confuse theology (which we are allowed a certain latitude of opinion) with Dogma (which we are bound to believe).

 

[hoosierdaddy]

These are dogmas of the Catholic Church. They are to be believed. If you don’t, then you are not in union with the church. You, in essence, are your own Pope.

Now, no one says these are easy to understand. And noone is forcing you to pray rosaries, etc. That is not mandatory.

Show me in Scripture where it says this. You can’t.

You show yourself to be your own Pope when you make such comments about us. I may not be in union with the Catholic Church but that is your own fault. Until you change back to truth, we will remain separated.

 

[water]

Show me in Scripture where it says this. You can’t.

You show yourself to be your own Pope when you make such comments about us. I may not be in union with the Catholic Church but that is your own fault. Until you change back to truth, we will remain separated.

Sola Scriptura huh? give us a break.
You are separating from the Truth.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

**

Sola Scriptura huh? give us a break.
You are separating from the Truth.

**

You couldn’t be more wrong.

Sola Scriptura…you betcha.

(Edited by Modferator)

I am separating from the Truth? Who made you the Pope? Who made you God? I am not separating from the Truth. I love the Lord Jesus Christ very much. He’s my “Pope”.

 

[LSK]

I have a feeling you are talking about me although I never once denied all four of those “dogmas”. I ONLY agree with number 1. The rest I disagree with and so do many Catholics. In fact, many Catholics ON THIS SITE have said that they weren’t necessary to believe. So if you were calling “me” a “space cadet” you’d better apply that to your fellow Catholics.

Prove to me FROM SCRIPTURE points 2, 3, and 4. You can’t do it.

Signed,
space cadet HD (about to be promoted to Captain) (Moderator Note: That would be only Ensign:

If anyone on this site who claims to be Catholic has told you or anyone else that it is not necessary to accept as a matter of FAITH all four of the Marian Dogmas they have broken the 8th Commandment.

It is very sad that many Catholics today have been poorly catechized. That does not mean that they are allowed to disregard the Truth. They may not be held as culpable for the sins they commit if they have not been taught the Truth, but not knowing about it does not make it an un-Truth.

You may not have been aware of the Truth before visiting this site. However, once you have been told Truth your responsibility will skyrocket.

You need to also know that Catholics are NOT children of the Book…we are Children of the Word Incarnate. Therefore we do not ‘prove’ everything from Holy Scripture but from the FULLNESS of the Word…Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

We believe that Mary is a Perpetual Virgin. You cannot prove that she is NOT from Sacred Scripture.

We believe that Mary was Assumed Body and Soul into Heaven. You cannot prove that she was NOT from Sacred Scripture.

Ignorance is one thing - defiance and rejection are another. It is very sad when Catholics have to defend their faith to a Catholic. It makes me question whether or not you are telling the truth about yourself.