well I am a Protestant a Southern Baptist Protestant to be more precise, and I have heard a lot of anti Roman Catholic talk; however, Christ prayed that his chruch would be one and constaintly harping on our minor differences pushes us appart it does not bring us together. but I am sure you have heard a lot of anti Protestant talk as well.
Hi again. I’ve never heard much anti-Protestant talk and fact is, as a Roman Catholic social worker, I’ve never heard a single word said against the Baprists.
well thats refeshing, let me know if you can recommend any books to me.
I’ve been a Roman Catholic all of my life (more than 60 yrs).Baptized in my infancy, Confirmed at age 12 yrs.For reading, maybe take a look at Church teachings by locating a copy of the Documents of Vatican II. The document called Constitution of the Church in the Modern World might be a good introductory overview for you. Published in around 1965. I’ll keep on thinking about readings for you.
I will look into that, thank you.
Good morning and guess what? I found it online.Click on this link. rc.net/rcchurch/vatican2/
wow that is a lot of info, it will take me sometime to look at it. Thanks
I know! Kind of daunting, huh?It’s an easier read in book form but if you only read the Church in the Modern World for starters, it might help you come up to date with an overview. Actually, as a single section, that’s not too long.
And thus the problem in the time bound group this appears true, however in the group not bound by time they see all at once so to God Bob’s birth, choices, and death all occur free of time and are all visible at once. While Bob is on earth his birth, choices, and death are separated by time and revealed as time passes.
Not necessarily. The future is in fact determined, but not always by God. We determine a large degree of the future by our exercise of free will. God allows us to write much of the future by our free will, but he knows, being outside of time, what we will write. This writing cannot change, but it is not always written by God. We can only know what has previously been written, being within created time, but God can see the unchanging work in its entirety.
This is a very good analysis.
Here we differ, probably because of the usage of the word “knowledge”.
Unicorns are horses with a horn growing out of their head. Is this knowledge? Could you put this in an encyclopedia?
From the human perspective, either would be possible. Catholics believe in free will, so it would be no. 1 for us. This question cannot be applied to God, for it is still framed from the perspective of time. For example, if the future had already happened, this would mean that it has already gone from potentiality to actuality. It seems to me that this would require time, so it would not apply to God’s perspective.
God can have knowledge about things that have not yet come into existence in creation. Being made in the image of God, people have this ability to some degree. For example, I can have the plans for a house in my head and then make it exist. However, we are unable to create primary existence like God can, and anything we can create derives from God’s creation.
Again, this is from our perspective. For those inside of time, the future has not yet been decided. For those outside of time, the question is irrelevent because God can see His creation in its totality, all at once.
This would not be omniscience, for this means being all-knowing. If we did not know the end, we would not be all-knowing. If you know everything that can be known about a movie and then watch it, you can know what will happen without it having “happened” yet. This is not a perfect analogy, as God can view creation in its totality. This would be kind of like viewing all the frames from the movie simultaneously and being able to process all the sensory (name removed by moderator)ut from them at the same instant.
do Catholics believe that God can change his plans? using your example : if I have house plans in my head and a problem comes up I can adapt so that my ultimate goal is reached.
if the future is decided from any perspective, then the future is decided. the perspective is irrelevent.
It is merely a supposition. In an encyclopedia it woul appear under the title of imaginary creatures.
Agreed so far.
No it would not. Whether something happened or not is an absolute “event”, it is not contingent upon the observer.
That entails “knowledge” of something that does not exist, in other words information about nonexistent objects or events. If you wish to assert that, then you deny the concept of “knowledge” - in any sense we can conceive. To call it “knowledge” is the fallacy of the stolen concept.
If it happened, yes. If it did not happen, then no. You can’t have it both ways. Existence is not contingent upon the “observer”. Something either exists or not.
And that is the absurdity. Having information about nonexistence is nonsensical.
It is objective knowledge about imaginary things. Can I know anything about these imaginary creatures? Can I know anything about mythology? I learned in literature class that Achilles killed Hektor. Did this really happen? Of course not. This doesn’t change the fact that I know that Hektor was killed and not Achilles. Would you assert that I cannot know this?
I’m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. I agree with your second statement, however, God is not just an observer. Anything that happens is ultimately contingent on God because God keeps everything in existence.
I disagree with your concept of knowledge. I can know some things before they exist, (which I do whenever I plan something) and God can do so to a vastly higher ability. Why do you hold this theory of knowledge? Every time someone plans something they have knowledge of what it will be. Of course, they do not always decide (or are unable to) to make their knowledge correspond to something material.
Yes, you can. “Happened” and “not happened” are relational words. They describe the relationship in time between the present and what has come to pass and what has not come to pass. God is outside of time, so these relational words do not apply to God.
You know that God does not exist. Is this sensical?
In the example, would you argue that the frames you have not yet seen do not exist?
No, God cannot change. Change assumes that something can go up or down in terms of perfection or complexity, while God is already infinitely perfect and simple. However, God is not just an inanimate object like a rock. He is Love and has a will. We can’t really comprehend how these faculties are exercised, because we have no experience using them outside of time.
Those within time cannot know it without revelation, but God can due to being outside of time. God can view creation in its totality, like viewing all the frames in a movie simultaneously and processing the (name removed by moderator)ut from them simultaneously. This does not mean you decided how the movie would go.
Catholicism does not teach this.
Yes. He knew whether or not we would choose or reject Him. This remains our decision. This is a measure of God’s love for us in that He was willing to create us and give us free will even though many would abuse these gifts and go against Him.
Actually you can know about the books and other form of literary communication channels -because they exist. You can also know how the authors imagine the objects and events. No problem there.
I heard that kind of interpretation before, and cannot accept it.
That is your right and prerogative.
And I contend that it does not qualify as “knowledge”. Imagination, sure. Wishing something, you bet. Knowledge, no.
Existence and nonexistence are not relational. Neither is “happened” and “did not happen yet”. These are absolute categories.
I know that the Christian concept of God does not exist as reality, just like I know that no married bachelors can not exist in reality - though they both can exist as concepts. Both are logically contradictory concepts. But I do not know whether a vastly superior being does or does not exist, who might have played a pivotal role in the universe. I find this an uncessary idea, but I could be wrong.
All I can know that they may or may not exist. The film might end abruptly because someone cut the film and destroyed the second half.
Yet again, omniscience - if such a thing were possible - would not control reality. I maintain that if omniscience would be possible, it would only be possible at the expense of freedom of choices.
I see what you are saying. This is certainly true for us. What makes you think it is true for God? I don’t understand why you deny the ability of a being transcendant of time to be able to see time in its entirety.
God has designed natural laws to govern the universe physically. The way you described it is not what I mean. Rather, the existence of creation itself is contingent on God, kind of like how triangles are dependent on lines for their existence. The physical universe runs according the the laws which God has programmed, but such a situation would be impossible if created existence ceased to exist. I’ve heard that since God is outside of time, His act of creation is the same as His act of maintanance of creation.
It gets more complex when wishing something actually brings it into existence.
God knows all of existence, in its totality. Every person, every human action, every species that ever existed, every event in history, every segment of time, all that has existed, exists, or will exist (from our perspective) in the same instance.
According to newadvent.org, (a reliable Catholic source), knowledge cannot be strictly defined. They take it at its broader meaning however, like knowing somthing’s up with a friend. In the sense you mean it, I would say that it is knowing truth. Truth is what is. Unlike you, I consider spiritual things like grace to be as objectively real as the laws of physics
The relate in that the tell the subject how certain things relate in time. Something that has happened tells the subject that something has already occured, while “not happened yet” says that it has not come to pass. They are certainly absolute- America was founded in 1776, which cannot change, Since God is not bound by time, these words have no meaning to God Himself.
You say we can only know what exists. You also say that our God does not exist. Do you hold that something that is not physcial, like the non-existence of God, can exist in a materialistic world?
If you were omnipotent this would not happen. Nothing except yourself could destroy the film.
Because you view things from the perspective of time. God knows all the choices we will make, because God views creation as a totality . All at once
then who has decided how the “movie” of my life would go, if God made the choice then I have no free will and I am simply playing my part, much like Macbeth , and if I free will then I decide atleast some measure of how my scenes are played out.
what then does Catholicism teach?