The Fruits of "Redemptionis Sacramentum"?

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That Church looks very familiar to a photo I saw where the Tridentine Mass was being said in Germany.

It’s such a beautiful Church too… :mad:

Miguel.
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
Not much, apparently:

members16.clubphoto.com/marcel757172/2260638/guest.phtml

These shenanigans were going on hardly a week after the document was issued. Just as we all knew they would.

Sigh Just another usual day in the Catholic Church . . .

😦
Maybe they got their copy snail mail. 😦 As in will read it someday…maybe…or maybe not. :mad:
 
I have to wonder if, given the lack of enforcement of these documents, the only people who read them are the people who aren’t doing this stuff anyway. After all, the primary people who are concerned with what the Church has to say about the Mass are the people who were celebrating it properly to begin with. Maybe I’m just a crank, but I really wish that the Vatican would enforce the documents that are already written instead of responding to problems with new documents.

David
 
Amen to that, David.

I think most of these documents miss the larger picture when they single out all these particular abuses. In many parishes, the problem isn’t so much abuses, as it is just a lack of reverence. But the things that used to make up a “reverent” Mass were not always indicated in the rubrics. They were just common practice.

For example, when I was a postulant for the Society of Saint John Cantius, we altar boys were taught to always walk reverently, with our hands folded. All movements of the servers were supposed to be purposeful and ritualized. Now, in most parishes, the servers don’t have this demeanor at all. So you could theoretically have a non-abusive Mass, but one that still isn’t reverent, or conducive to an appreciation of the sacred.

I can’t stand the way that priests conduct themselves when they say Mass. Hands are down by their side, they’ll pick eye-crud or scratch their nose, play with their fingers or fidget when they sit, take off their glasses and put them on the altar, etc. From the same church:

a6.cpimg.com/image/A2/D3/31464866-55df-0226019D-.jpg

These are not specific things that can be addressed by a document. They’re a state-of-mind, a disposition, that a priest either has, or hasn’t.
That Church looks very familiar to a photo I saw where the Tridentine Mass was being said in Germany.
It’s such a beautiful Church too…
Here’s what the church looks like when *** isn’t been said there:

mypage.bluewin.ch/karl.baer/album/kirche/index.htm

I hate myself for having to say that.
 
I think in America, at least, we will have to wait a short while longer before we start to see the Fruits. In speaking with the bishop here recently he said that the Council of Bishops was meeting this summer and Redemptionis Sacramentum will be brought up. All we can do is pray and be thankful that something has finally been said on this matter. Just a few months ago it looked like these abuses would never be addressed. 👍
 
I have to agree wholeheartedly with Dominvs Vobisvm’s comments. I remember being at my confirmation in Sacramento, CA. I assisted at a Tridentine Mass celebrated by a member of the Fraternal Society of Saint Peter. I remember the reverence displayed by the altar server, in the way he walked and conducted himself. It made an indelible impression on me. I actually thought at the time that I should have him visit where I live (I was from out of town) and conduct classes on how to show proper reverence while altar serving.

Hence I must also agree that merely getting rid of abuses in the new liturgy, while good, does not necessarily address the issue of lack of reverence.
 
On the bright side, it got a far higher than normal number of people into church in Europe :rolleyes:
 
Okay, though guys-- we’re talking about an institution who took hundreds of years to pardon Galileo… change isn’t going to happen nationwide in a matter of a few short weeks. I see this as a momentum thing-- the fruits of this and other changes to increase reverence will probably not be seen for a few decades. A huge part of this equation, in my opinion, is priestly formation- which takes from 5-7 years… The seminarians need to be taught to be reverent and that the Eucharist is the Real Presence of our King of Kings and not just our pal and brother.

Many parishes are probably waiting for instruction from their Bishops and the most rebellious of all parishes probably don’t see this as a binding document, but merely as suggestions. Or there are pastors who have read some of the worst abuses as they’ve been reported, without reading the entire document and think “Well, that doesn’t apply to me.” And then there are those many poorly formed priests who actually think that it is permissible to add , change or omit things where it is not licit and read the document and think sincerely that they are not doing any of those things…

I just think it will be awhile before the changes and greater reverence are the norm…
 
The problem fostered by many bishops is that documents from Rome are treated as suggestions, instead of requirements.
 
I don’t know about all the parishes in this country and neither does anyone else, but April just finished and May is underway. It has been rather busy for bishops and priests this month no matter where they may be.

You want fruits the moment a document is released? You can’t be serious. You don’t even have the assurance it’s been read, never mind anything else.

My emphasis is on expecting instant grits as opposed to genuine concern that anything is to come from it.
You may consider my analogy to be wrong, but I couldn’t contact my immediate family members with necessary information in a medical emergency with the speed expected from RS - plus, get action on it.
Be reasonable.
Theresa
 
I would beg to differ tabithia, the church where I go were doing things wrong that we didn’t know were wrong such as having the precious blood in glass chalices, which is bad so I am told and now we have new correct containers on the way. I think that what Redemptionis Sacramentum not only provided a way for good churches to get better but also provided a list of things that those churches in question can do better. Peace
 
I wouldn’t compare these changes to other things slow in the Church. I think it is more like foot dragging on the part of some than anything else. Hopefully, the next few months will prove me wrong.
 
Tyler Smedley:
I would beg to differ tabithia, the church where I go were doing things wrong that we didn’t know were wrong such as having the precious blood in glass chalices, which is bad so I am told and now we have new correct containers on the way. I think that what Redemptionis Sacramentum not only provided a way for good churches to get better but also provided a list of things that those churches in question can do better. Peace
Tyler, not a problem at all! I am glad that someone read it and ordered the new chalice.
But before congratulations are being handed out, realize that an incorrect chalice is presently being seen. The thread started because something is not yet seen. Until that chalice shows up, the same thing will be said by someone visiting there.

In any case, my point was not about the specifics but about the expectation of SPEED when many marry, are confirmed, make First Communion, and more at this very time of year -not necessarily dealing with the sacraments.
Point: patience, and time.
 
Good call I didn’t think about that, we do need to give these others some time and hope that people visiting start calling these churches on their breaches of proper practice.
 
DominvsVobiscvm said:

I first saw one of these very pictures a week or two ago, on some web site, and was shocked. Gymnastics during Mass? Thank you for posting the URL for the full set of pictures.

From what I can see in the pictures, I do NOT see Mass being celebrated or Liturgy happening. I’ve read Redemptionis Sacramentum, and my understanding of it is that it addresses abuses during liturgy. I don’t see that happening here, although at first sight it seems appalling. Looking closer, it seems to be some religious servce for a gymnasics group or meet?

Translating the German text on the URL, it says “STV Menzingen - 75 years - festival religious service”. The German word for Mass is “Masse”, but I don’t see that on the page. Both these translations I got from freetranslation.com.

While I don’t think the gymnastics in the church is a good idea, or rather than it was probably a poor idea, I don’t think they are celebrating “Liturgy”. Take a look for yourselves at all the pictures.

I don’t know if it is ok to use the church space for stuff like that, according to the church, but it puts some caution into me the next time I see images like these. Sometimes a picture does not tell the whole story.

Thanks and God Bless
 
For some people, it may be possible to go to the original link above, and look for the thumbnail version. It’s labeled: “p4254522”
 
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