The Fruits of Vatican II

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The Mass being said in the vernacular, so the congregation can understand those parts that used to be said in Latin.

The engagement and participation of the congregation to a much greater extent.

The priest facing the congregation instead of having his back turned toward them.
 
Emphasis on pastoral care per Gaudium et Spes. I think one of the saddest things I learned about the pre VII Church was that after WWII, affected veterans had to have faked medical records if they committed suicide due to the (then unknown) effects of PTSD, to be able to have a Catholic funeral and burial. Gaudium et Spes allowed for Priests to exercise pastoral discernment in such cases so that official records didn’t need to reflect a lie.
Just curious if you have a source where you read about this? The faked medical records of WWII vet’s?
 
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Emphasis on pastoral care per Gaudium et Spes. I think one of the saddest things I learned about the pre VII Church was that after WWII, affected veterans had to have faked medical records if they committed suicide due to the (then unknown) effects of PTSD, to be able to have a Catholic funeral and burial. Gaudium et Spes allowed for Priests to exercise pastoral discernment in such cases so that official records didn’t need to reflect a lie.
Just curious if you have a source where you read about this? The faked medical records of WWII vet’s?
I wish I could produce an official link but it’s anecdotal, originating with my uncle who’s an old time Priest here in Australia.
 
Uh, no. It sounds like you have been spending a lot of time on sedvacantist and conspiracy websites.
Nope. Actually from a broad spectrum of Catholic sites. I stay away from the Sedavacantists–too culty for me. 😉 And all I did was summarize in rhetorical form the problems with Vatican II that @Genesis315 mentioned above (with a little bit of extra from the Catholic news cycle from the past few months). 😊
 
What are the fruits of Vatican II throughout time? Have not schisms abounded, confusions multiplied, liturgy lost its reverence, religious and priestly vocations withered, worldliness, corruption and scandal shaken the foundations of the Catholic faith? Has not Sacred Tradition been displaced with modernity’s cold, arrogant cynicism, resulting in an anemic piety amongst the faithful? Has not the spirit of Catholic Church changed infecting not merely the clergy and faithful, but also the Vatican, even unto the Papacy itself, in the form of idolatry (i.e. pachamama), sacrilege, relativism, and subjugation to the powers of this world?
Do you also think Trent failed? All of these questions could have been asked in 1620 except for the pachamama. And there were probably plenty of similar issues in Latin America and Asia that would have seen accusations of idolatry hurled at the Church.
 
Do you also think Trent failed? All of these questions could have been asked in 1620 except for the pachamama. And there were probably plenty of similar issues in Latin America and Asia that would have seen accusations of idolatry hurled at the Church.
Same for Vatican I, which resulted in some serious schisms, so I guess that council “failed” also.
 
While no one doubts my love for the EF, and probably few here have ever suffered more, or for longer periods, of absolutely horrific OF liturgies, in the interest of fairness I have heard of, and thankfully have also been to, incredibly reverent and lovely OF liturgies.

And while the EF was, for 99% plus of Catholics, unavailable for nearly 40 years, it is not lost.

I don’t know if this will be taken in the right spirit, but I’m not thinking that we need to comment on or list possible ‘fruits’ of Vatican II (unless somebody wants to make a mad rush to start a thread on ‘the three greatest fruits of Vatican I). Vatican II was a pastoral council. Furthermore, while we are 50 years plus ‘out’, when it comes to the Church, that is a pretty small fraction of time. It is possible that it might take at least another 50 years, or even 500 years, for there to be a clear and distinct ‘fruits’ to be seen. There are probably still kinks aplenty to be worked out. It will probably be my grandchildren and great-grandchildren who will reap any benefits. And those benefits may turn out to be incredibly different from what are seen today by many as ‘fruits’.

As others have also noted, many ‘benefits’ put forward might have just as easily happened if the council had never been called. It is possible too that many things that are not so beneficial came along (one ponders the gospel story of the man who sowed good seed but whose enemy came at night and sowed weeds; when it was seen that weeds were growing, and the servants asked, “should we tear out the weeds’, the man replied, “No, for you might destroy the wheat. Let them grow together and at harvest, gather the wheat into my barn, but the weeds you shall take and burn”); God has a way of bringing good out of evil, and He does it in His own good time.

I think we are still both too close in time, and still struggling to work out ‘kinks’, to make any kind of judgment of the ‘three best fruits’.
 
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Thanks to all of you for your suggestions and for not getting preachy about it.

Now, I have a further question. Do you think that the fruits of Vatican II are so good that any attempt to return to pre-vatican Ii practices should be suppressed?
 
Thanks to all of you for your suggestions and for not getting preachy about it.

Now, I have a further question. Do you think that the fruits of Vatican II are so good that any attempt to return to pre-vatican Ii practices should be suppressed?
I don’t think there’s any reason why niche groups can’t recreate the past if the Church is ok for them to do that. But the majority of Catholics have no interest in fussing about medieval practices in today’s world.
 
OK. So why are obstacles always placed in the way of any return to traditional ways?
 
People saying Trent failed in a similar way as Vatican II miss the point. The Church will never eliminate evil from the world, the whole of which is seated in wickedness, according to the scriptures. The point of Trent was to strengthen the Church’s ecclesiastical discipline and unity of faith in the face of Protestantism and other evils. And it did. It helped the Church flourish despite the rise of Protestantism. It helped purify the Church of abuses.

The whole point of Vatican II was to read “the signs of the times”–the circumstances of the world–and give the Church a pastoral approach that would make her more effective in those circumstances. There, it clearly and utterly failed. Not only did it not lessen evils in the world, but they increased in the Church. The Church became less effective, not more.

As others have posted, the Church after the Council was completely unprepared and ill equipped to actually deal with the issues it would face.
 
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Just to add to my post above, Vatican II was out of date pretty much immediately–not those points of perennial doctrine it repeats that are never out of date, but its pastoral outlook and approach (its predominate concern).

Pope St. John XXIII in his opening speech orients the Council’s approach in light of specific circumstances. For example, he says “the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians…is presumed to be well known and familiar to all.” This presumption proved to ultimately be invalid immediately, if it were even accurate when he said it (hindsight is of course 20/20).

Likewise, with regard to the errors in the world, he says
But all such error is so manifestly contrary to rightness and goodness, and produces such fatal results, that our contemporaries show every inclination to condemn it of their own accord—especially that way of life which repudiates God and His law, and which places excessive confidence in technical progress and an exclusively material prosperity. It is more and more widely understood that personal dignity and true self-realization are of vital importance and worth every effort to achieve. More important still, experience has at long last taught men that physical violence, armed might, and political domination are no help at all in providing a happy solution to the serious problems which affect them.
Again, with hindsight, this proved to be not the case at all almost immediately. If those presumptions remained true, Vatican II’s approach might have been more fruitful (or it might not have, we’ll never know).

In any event, the contingent nature of the Council’s approach is noted by the Council itself in its acts, and in the explanations of the relators to the bishops. For one example, Gaudium et spes, in its first footnote, says:
Some elements have a permanent value; others, only a transitory one…Interpreters must bear in mind—especially in part two—the changeable circumstances which the subject matter, by its very nature, involves.
It is time to simply leave Vatican II behind in the era it was intended for and move on. It’s “transitory” approach and analysis of the circumstances of the world needs to be re-evaluated. We need to look both to prior approaches that consistently bore fruit in many different circumstances, including those like ours (and which continue to do so today in the few places they are adopted) as well as other approaches more suited to a world growing more and more hostile to the faith and a Church more and more willing to go along with it. And yet, despite its general fruitlessness, our leadership seems to stick to these out-of date views rigidly and intransigently, sometimes even seeming more open to re-evaluating those things in the Church which are immutable…
 
I think k it is really hard to say what changes in Catholics in the last 50 years are due to Vatican II and which came out of something else. The Greek Orthodox didn’t have a Vatican II and they have some of the same advances and challenges Roman Catholics do. What’s due to two World Wars, what’s due to greater assimilation between ethnic groups, what’s due to greater individualism, what’s due to much higher cross-cultural fusion in everything from music to food to language?
Would the universal call to holiness be “a thing” with or without Vatican II?
How would the experience of the march of the Lectionary be if we had stayed on a one-year cycle?
How would the Church have changed due to the dropping number of clergy and the higher number of college-educated and intermarried Catholics, with or without Vatican II? What about the world fascination with Eastern thought (or what some in the West imagined was Eastern thought, at any rate?) What about the modern love affair with novelty and informality? Greater access to…everything?
I don’t know.
 
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I’ve heard it takes 100 years to have an idea what a Church Council wrought. Maybe we won’t live to know?
Maybe a better question is what service to holiness Vatican II is set to make but yet to make, and ask ourselves what work that leaves to each of us?
 
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What is the refutation for the first quote? Are you referring to the atomic bomb? There are other methods of war, and other wars, which certainly don’t bring happiness.

Likewise, the first part of the quote is true and is a clear criticism of the technocracy and positivism of the Cold War, which wasn’t temporal but extended to our current secular capitalist society.

Your posts “seem right” because you quote the Council itself, but if you read them carefully, the arguments aren’t well explained.
 
What is an example of this?
See my post just after your above for some background. Post-WWII Catholicism was on top of its game and actually had more credibility than ever. It had full monasteries, seminaries, rectories, and pews and actually could influence social mores and popular media, which it did. Schools and parishes were being built, not closed. The time during Pius XII’s pontificate saw dramatic increases in every positive indicator. Our stance against communism saw us no longer as “other” amongst non-Catholic believers in God. Just look at the popular image of priests in media: always respectable and wise, always good.

This was the backdrop for Pope John convoking the Council and in fact the reason he did. It’s entire approach is built on those circumstances. The Church finally, since the French revolution, had the kind of relationship with society where it could more positively engage and shape the new emerging post-war order. Even the move to embrace ecumenism was founded on the positive view Protestants had developed of the Church during and after the war. They actually seemed open to real unity.

As Pope John’s opening speech demonstrates, these were the circumstances for which “aggiornamento” was geared. He chided the “prophets of doom” who saw these things changing rapidly and thought the kind of Council he wanted to call would be a bad idea.

But before the Council even ended, all of these things had changed and continued to do so right after. Protestantism moved farther away from unity, the societal revolutions against authority, patriarchy, sexual mores, and religion in general made the Church an enemy again and something standing in the way of “progress”. Where the Church might have helped gently guide the prior affairs with its new, more open approach, it was dragged down and wounded because it kept this approach with the new order that actually emerged.

To extend Pope John’s analogy, we threw open the windows when the weather was nice, but refused to close them again when the storm blew in, and it wrecked the interior of our house.
 
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