The Future of Marriage

[JimG]

This is not a problem in the West. The women are eager to pin paternity so they can start getting that child support check. If you suspect cuckolding, then you’ll have to fight and pay to prove (non)paternity…and then the court might might make you pay child support anyway.

SWolf is correct. Marriage is declining because of the perverse no-fault divorce laws that make it a horrible proposition for men. Besides, why marry when women will freely offer sex, bear children, etc without “putting a ring on it”? It leaves the small subset of Catholics - men & women - who are truly interested in living by the authentic teaching of the Church in a terrible situation. You can try to say it doesn’t matter if you marry well, but the constant barrage of secular hedonism we are all exposed to may have the devout 21 year old you married asking you for a frivorce a decade later.

Yes, I think that we have all been brainwashed by the sexual revolution for several generations now. It has so diluted the common understanding of marriage that I believe the culture itself makes it nearly impossible to give proper marriage vows. Maybe that’s why there are so many decrees of nullity. Find the old “exhortation before marriage” that used to be given by the priest just before the marriage vows. It is never used anymore because no one believes it any more. And that’s a shame.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

This is what we have come to as a society: marriage as a basis for family formation is simply not honored anymore by the majority of those outside of the UMC or higher. Not even within the Church. It’s not just the divorce rate itself, not just the ease of no fault divorce, not just the current state of family courts, not just the prevalence of nullity decrees, it’s also that almost everyone around divorcing couples excuses their breakups and that excusing is heavily supported by popular media. Too few people want to do the hard work to stay married themselves, let alone support loved ones experiencing marriage difficulties. There is so much pretension in courtship that it shouldn’t surprise anyone that it’s difficult for genuinely good candidates of both sexes to find each other because we have become suspicious and very much on our guard.

I vet prospective candidates very strongly because I know now that the only force compelling a woman to hold to her vows is in her head. I must do this because I am not in that demographic with the best odds of marriages that last. I would like to be a father, but first I have to do well at picking my children’s mother, a task for which secular society has stacked the odds against me. Scared? No, I’m being pragmatic on behalf of the children I hope to have someday because I owe it to them to get it right.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

This is not a problem in the West. The women are eager to pin paternity so they can start getting that child support check. If you suspect cuckolding, then you’ll have to fight and pay to prove (non)paternity…and then the court might might make you pay child support anyway.

You’re very lucky if you don’t know anyone who has been hit with the situation that I described. I’ve seen it many times, both personally and professionally. If you get a woman pregnant, she decides that someone else would be a “better” father, and she puts his name on the birth certificate, you can find yourself in a very expensive fight trying to even get a paternity test ordered. And in all likelihood, if it is ordered, that test will be at your expense. Men lose their kids forever because they can’t afford to take on the fight and someone else is able to establish that relationship before they can get the money together. Out of everything I’ve seen people do to each other in family court, this is the most cruel. It robs the father, the child, and the extended family of so much.

If you suspect that you are not the father, my advice is to get a lawyer ASAP. You won’t be ordered to pay child support if you deal with it from the start. But, if you decide to raise the child even if there are questions, you can’t go back in a few years and decide to undo the commitment. It’s a really bad situation to be in either way, but personally, I’d rather have to prove that I’m not the father of my wife’s child than prove I am the father of a child who’s mother denies that it could even be possible. The latter is more expensive, much harder to win, and there’s so much more than just money on the line.

 

[Rosebud77]

You are missing the point. I’m obviously talking about people who want to be married, not those who wish to remain single.

With respect I think it i you who are missing the point. OUR desires set against what? Do we live totally to please ourselves, for self fulfilment, or for others? There were years when I felt left out when all my contemporaries were married with babies, or vice versa in some cases…but then we adapt to what is and mature and leave societys ideals behind. Surely not what we are meant to be but that we choose the way that opens to us and for us and stop hankering after any one thing, eg marriage. ie we grow up more and more. scuse bad grammar, bad time for my illness… was remembering when I was 21. coming of age, and an uncle gave a gift tied in long lengths of string, telling me that that was to catch a man… it was to be an oddity you see…conforming can be a dangerous way

 

[Rosebud77]

Rosebud made a wonderful observation - namely Marriage is not mandatory. Not everyone is suited for parenting and family. Singles have great purposes too!

amen to that!

 

[Rosebud77]

I agree with pretty much everything Jim G. has said, but I would also like to add that there are less and less young people in the church these days in North America. There was a study (Which I can’t find since I am strapped for time at the moment as lunch is nearly over) that said something like 20% of adults once they hit 18 actually stay in the Church.

It’s also been my personally experience that only about 50% of that 20% truly believe what the church says.

And I say this as one of three young people in my Parish. It’s gotten so bad here with the marriage rate dropping our Bishop recently stated there was a problem and that we had to do something about young people not getting married.

So basically OP, it’s a numbers game. Just pray and be patient. When you are ready to meet said spouse, you will.

and if you do no then no great tragedy… life is a varied and wonderful journey

 

[ZellieFan]

This is what we have come to as a society: marriage as a basis for family formation is simply not honored anymore by the majority of those outside of the UMC or higher. Not even within the Church. It’s not just the divorce rate itself, not just the ease of no fault divorce, not just the current state of family courts, not just the prevalence of nullity decrees, it’s also that almost everyone around divorcing couples excuses their breakups and that excusing is heavily supported by popular media. Too few people want to do the hard work to stay married themselves, let alone support loved ones experiencing marriage difficulties. There is so much pretension in courtship that it shouldn’t surprise anyone that it’s difficult for genuinely good candidates of both sexes to find each other because we have become suspicious and very much on our guard.

I vet prospective candidates very strongly because I know now that the only force compelling a woman to hold to her vows is in her head. I must do this because I am not in that demographic with the best odds of marriages that last. I would like to be a father, but first I have to do well at picking my children’s mother, a task for which secular society has stacked the odds against me. Scared? No, I’m being pragmatic on behalf of the children I hope to have someday because I owe it to them to get it right.

Yes, I think men are particularly damaged in this regard. Christian women often have high ideals and we are sometimes influenced by the wrong thing (fairy tales, Hollywood romance). It’s a lot for men to live up to. Then there’s the women who chase men…who make it easy for men to not take initiative. We have to pray for each other–for women to feel safe enought to be vulnerable and for men to feel emboldened to pursue.

 

[Xantippe]

As opposed to having children out of wedlock, where not only will you have to fight for custody/visitation, you’ll have to fight (and pay) to prove paternity first.

Right.

 

[Xantippe]

This is not a problem in the West. The women are eager to pin paternity so they can start getting that child support check. If you suspect cuckolding, then you’ll have to fight and pay to prove (non)paternity…and then the court might might make you pay child support anyway.

Actually, no, and particularly not among the poor and the never-married.

You’ll note that poor unmarried women often do not pursue child support. There’s often a sort of implied agreement that the mother will not pursue child support and the father will not seek contact with the child, which the mother may view as a good deal.

“In April 2008, the Census Bureau’s Current Population Survey (CPS) obtained reports by custodial parents (usually custodial mothers) about the contributions of the noncustodial parents (usually fathers) of their children.26 Although more than 60 percent of divorced custodial mothers had a formal agreement concerning child support payments, 56 percent of the 3.8 million unwed custodial mothers had no formal agreement. Of the 1.4 million unwed mothers with an award and a payment due in 2007, 558,000 received their full payment and 478,000 received a partial payment. The average payments received by never-married mothers amounted to about $250 a month ($3,040 a year).”

princeton.edu/futureofchildren/publications/journals/article/index.xml?journalid=73&articleid=531&sectionid=3655

“Lenna Nepomnyaschy and Garfinkel provide a detailed look at the unwed fathers’ contributions using data from interviews with 1,326 unwed mothers who were not cohabiting with the father of a child born three years earlier.30 Only 24 percent of the mothers reported receiving any formal support, but another 29 percent received some informal cash support. Although these figures are somewhat lower than reported in the CPS for a broader group of unwed mothers, they reinforce the importance of informal payments by many fathers. Fathers who have once lived with their children provide more informal cash support. Perhaps such men feel more closely linked to their children than do fathers who have never cohabited. In this sample, informal support often substitutes for formal support: mothers without a formal support order receive much more informal cash support than do mothers with an order. Indeed, mothers with no formal support order received almost $150 a month in informal support.”

So, to recap:

–unwed mothers often don’t have formal child support set up
–unwed mothers get $250 a month on average when there is a formal child support agreement
–when there is an informal child support arrangement, support averages $150 a month.

 

[Xantippe]

I once overheard a fragment of a conversation between two female cafeteria workers. One was telling the other that her mother had told her not to go for child support and the speaker figured that that was the best way to go, presumably because not going for child support would mean being better positioned to avoid unwanted legal entanglements with the father of her child. I didn’t get a chance to hear the whole conversation, but it is interesting in light of the statistics on child support for unmarried mothers–their (on average) lack of eagerness to go after child support money, coupled with the fact that unmarried mothers that do go after child support get tiny amounts of money.

“According to the federal Office of Child Support Enforcement, $108 billion in total back payments was owed to parents with custody of children in 2009.”

money.cnn.com/2012/11/05/news/economy/unpaid-child-support/

 

[alphawoman]

OP:

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I DEFINITELY don’t blame God for the current situation. But why won’t He fix it?

Because we have free will.

Although numbers of young people in the pews are declining, this should be, paradoxically, one of the easiest eras in which to find a compatible spouse. The rise of the Internet has allowed communities to form and people to find each other more easily than in the past across a larger base. So, while the proportion of eligible Catholic suitors in the population may have declined, you have access to a much larger population base with current technology than any of our forebears had. Higher levels of human capital have empowered workers to be mobile across regions, which means you are no longer constrained to local options.

If you aren’t happy with your local options, create a solution! Start a social group in your community, organize a regional, state-wide or national event to draw in like-minded people. If you’ve exhausted your local options and feel very strongly that you want the right spouse, consider relocating to an area with a more vibrant opportunity set. If it’s that important to you, you’ll make it happen. I’m not saying it will be easy, but it is doable with hard work.

I hope this came across as a shot in the arm and not a criticism, because it was intended to be the former!

God bless you. You’re in my prayers.

 

[Demetra2]

Zelliefan, I have to whole heartedly agree that finding a suitable spouse is a problem for practicing Catholics in our culture now. I have two daughters who are struggling with this problem and although they are attractive nice people they don’t sleep around so that prevents them from meeting many people. Of course they don’t want those men but still the dating pool for them is small. They have been on Catholic Match and even there the guys are hesitant to ask a girl out. What is a girl to do? I think meeting people in person is the best way so it would be a good idea to be a “joiner”. Go to meet up groups and take classes, volunteer. One of my daughters met her boyfriend while performing in a musical. He is not Catholic but Eastern Orthodox. Widen your search beyond Catholic men although I would stay with someone of the Christian faith.

I think that each Archdiocese in this country needs to wake up and start addressing this issue. If they don’t we will be looking at more church closings. This problem is huge but our Cardinals are ignoring it! I have addressed this many times with our Boston Archdiocese but they never have an answer or solution. They don’t even acknowledge it! So we the lay people have to insist that it is attended to.

 

[ZellieFan]

Because we have free will.

Although numbers of young people in the pews are declining, this should be, paradoxically, one of the easiest eras in which to find a compatible spouse. The rise of the Internet has allowed communities to form and people to find each other more easily than in the past across a larger base. So, while the proportion of eligible Catholic suitors in the population may have declined, you have access to a much larger population base with current technology than any of our forebears had. Higher levels of human capital have empowered workers to be mobile across regions, which means you are no longer constrained to local options.

If you aren’t happy with your local options, create a solution! Start a social group in your community, organize a regional, state-wide or national event to draw in like-minded people. If you’ve exhausted your local options and feel very strongly that you want the right spouse, consider relocating to an area with a more vibrant opportunity set. If it’s that important to you, you’ll make it happen. I’m not saying it will be easy, but it is doable with hard work.

I hope this came across as a shot in the arm and not a criticism, because it was intended to be the former!

God bless you. You’re in my prayers.

The Internet has theoretically created a wider base, but in actuality it has led to the objectification of humans. We no longer see people as people, but like objects for possible purchase. How easy is it to dismiss people over seemingly minor things? We don’t even give people a chance anymore. So the internet is not panacea for this. That being said, I do think it’s an option that needs to be exhausted because God can work through that medium.

As far as activities, I will be moving to a city with a very active young professionals ministry. So I am very much looking forward to opportunities to get out there.

 

[chevalier]

With the rapid degradation of traditional values and MANY Catholic and Christian singles who are LONGING to live God’s plan for human sexuality, why do so many languish in the state of singleness? Is it God’s will? Is it a spiritual attack from Satan that God allows? Why doesn’t He bring more couples together who will raise devout children? sigh

There are other things to do in life than being married and having children, even if that’s what one’s desire is (and whose isn’t?). It’s possible to be giving and give to others in other ways, too.

The Internet has theoretically created a wider base, but in actuality it has led to the objectification of humans. We no longer see people as people, but like objects for possible purchase. How easy is it to dismiss people over seemingly minor things? We don’t even give people a chance anymore. So the internet is not panacea for this. That being said, I do think it’s an option that needs to be exhausted because God can work through that medium.

There are two ways of choosing: 1. give the chance to the first somewhat acceptable person to show up; 2. look around and pick whom you like best. Nothing inherently bad or objectifying in #2.

 

[ZellieFan]

There are other things to do in life than being married and having children, even if that’s what one’s desire is (and whose isn’t?). It’s possible to be giving and give to others in other ways, too.

Obviously. However, my post never implied there wasn’t and this isn’t a topic about that.

There are two ways of choosing: 1. give the chance to the first somewhat acceptable person to show up; 2. look around and pick whom you like best. Nothing inherently bad or objectifying in #2.

Treating people like an option in a catalogue is objectification, whether it happens online or in real life. Let’s not pretend that technology has not negatively impacted our ability to interact with one another.

 

[Xantippe]

It’s not just the divorce rate itself, not just the ease of no fault divorce, not just the current state of family courts, not just the prevalence of nullity decrees, it’s also that almost everyone around divorcing couples excuses their breakups and that excusing is heavily supported by popular media. Too few people want to do the hard work to stay married themselves, let alone support loved ones experiencing marriage difficulties.

I think people tend to be aware that by the time outsiders know there is a problem in a marriage, there has usually been some spectacular misbehavior. When there are just little problems, people tend not to share them with others.

I just heard from a long-time Protestant friend with two small children. She is crying out for help because her husband has been drinking heavily for years and verbally mistreating her years (constantly calling her fatty and wishing out loud that she would die as well as blaming her for everything). She says he’s quite charming outside their family, so other people they know don’t understand what she’s talking about. Years ago, when I knew her, she was a bright, ambitious, hard-working young woman. I haven’t had a chance to talk to her at length but from what I’ve heard from others, it may also be the case that he is not actually working or is marginally employed. Up until very recently, we hadn’t been in touch, but I had thought they were doing fine–she’d visited my family with her kids, and everybody had said how beautifully behaved her little kids were.

What should I tell her? She is being mistreated every day.

 

[tifischer]

I think people tend to be aware that by the time outsiders know there is a problem in a marriage, there has usually been some spectacular misbehavior. When there are just little problems, people tend not to share them with others.

I just heard from a long-time Protestant friend with two small children. She is crying out for help because her husband has been drinking heavily for years and verbally mistreating her years (constantly calling her fatty and wishing out loud that she would die as well as blaming her for everything). She says he’s quite charming outside their family, so other people they know don’t understand what she’s talking about. Years ago, when I knew her, she was a bright, ambitious, hard-working young woman. I haven’t had a chance to talk to her at length but from what I’ve heard from others, it may also be the case that he is not actually working or is marginally employed. Up until very recently, we hadn’t been in touch, but I had thought they were doing fine–she’d visited my family with her kids, and everybody had said how beautifully behaved her little kids were.

What should I tell her? She is being mistreated every day.

She should talk to a priest : ) and ask the Holy Spirit our Wonderful Counselor for His assistance. Seek prayer support, lots of it…parish wide. If the husband is Christian have him talk to a priest too, have them attend marriage encounter together. Please have her pray about what the Holy Spirit wants for her to do.

Please let her know that if her or the children’s life is threatened or physically abused that she needs to contact CPS and call the police IMMEDIATELY. If she does not call immediately, they may not help her…although it is good to call anyways (even if late) so that it is documented…supposedly that is suppose to help.

I would lovingly tell him that I want to separate if my husband told me he wanted me to die and request that he seek help (that is not emotionally or spiritually good for you or your children to hear). She could also call a woman’s support line. Separation does mean that he may divorce her or he may get help and change for the better. Divorcing an angry man can be very difficult for the children, especially young ones. That is why it is so important to pray so that even in a divorce by no fault of her own (meaning she truly loves him as a husband and acts accordingly) her children may not continue to suffer through his hate.

Something very important for her is to not react to his hate except with love, don’t let him suck her in to his hate…she needs to pray during those times and if she cannot think of anything loving to say be prepared with scripture or saying I will need to pray about this then do not say anything at all…if he gets mad at her for the silent treatment tell her to have a response ready like I am praying about how to help this situation. My ex got worse with this…again if he is threatening or physically abusive call the police (especially while intoxicated). I have heard in some cases the police help abused women. If they do not, then she needs to go to the Municipal Court and file a citizen’s complaint against her husband (and good luck about complaining to the police about the police not helping…In my experience the head or complaint hotline may defend each other to the point of absurdity…like the police refuse that the contact was offensive even when the assailant admitted that it was offensive in court, God help us), however the Municipal Court has been helpful sometimes.

I will pray for her and her family!

God bless,
Tiffany

 

[InigoMontoya]

The Internet has theoretically created a wider base, but in actuality it has led to the objectification of humans. We no longer see people as people, but like objects for possible purchase. How easy is it to dismiss people over seemingly minor things? We don’t even give people a chance anymore. So the internet is not panacea for this. That being said, I do think it’s an option that needs to be exhausted because God can work through that medium.

As far as activities, I will be moving to a city with a very active young professionals ministry. So I am very much looking forward to opportunities to get out there.

When it comes to dating, I’m not sure if there has ever been a lack of objectification. With arranged marriages, the object was often family advancement. With pre-internet dating, asking someone out at a coffee shop was based on appearance and perhaps 4 minutes of witty banter. With meeting others online, one can at least view a glimpse of the others lifestyle, interests, etc. and actually engage in some long drawn out conversations, which is better than simply going with appearances, no? If you’re limiting yourself to people you frequently contact and can develop a friendship with before pursuing a possible romantic interest, you’re severely limiting yourself.

Prayers and best wishes with your move and meeting someone.

 

[Xantippe]

When it comes to dating, I’m not sure if there has ever been a lack of objectification. With arranged marriages, the object was often family advancement. With pre-internet dating, asking someone out at a coffee shop was based on appearance and perhaps 4 minutes of witty banter. With meeting others online, one can at least view a glimpse of the others lifestyle, interests, etc. and actually engage in some long drawn out conversations, which is better than simply going with appearances, no? If you’re limiting yourself to people you frequently contact and can develop a friendship with before pursuing a possible romantic interest, you’re severely limiting yourself.

Prayers and best wishes with your move and meeting someone.

Right.

And with a good profile, it’s possible to discover unusual shared interests that would normally never come up in casual conversation. “You’re a miniature poodle fancier, a board game enthusiast, AND love the traditional Latin Mass! I thought I was the only one!”

 

[AnneElizabeth]

Maybe it’s time for a return to formal introductions, arranged introductions, arranged dates, discreet parental inquires about possible mates. Leaving things to just happen on their own doesn’t seem to work. As Zelie noted, men can’t be counted on anymore to make the first move. I know of several recent marriages in which there was a certain interest and friendship, but nothing happened until the woman took the initiative to show some interest, and in which it turned out the man had been interested for some time but never made a move!

WHY are these men not making the first move? Its not the woman’s place to do this.