The future of traditional Catholicism?

  • Thread starter Thread starter marthaferretti
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I’ve followed the growth of traditional Catholicism in the US over the last 20 years when there were approximately 20 weekly TLM in 1991 to over 400 today.

Fr. Zuhlsdorf has written several times on his blog that he expects a different attitude among the priesthood towards the TLM over the next 10-15 years as those ordained in the 60’s, 70’s & 80’s are replaced by new ordinands who seem more receptive to the TLM.

This happened at a parish in my hometown when a new pastor (convert) was named. He put the kibosh on the plans to build a church in the round even though the plans were finalized and paid for. He built a traditional Gothic style church instead.

He also:
  1. Reserved serving the altar to boys and young men only (cassocks only)
  2. Encouraged reception of Holy Communion while kneeling and on the tongue
  3. Instituted a weekly TLM on Wed. evenings
  4. Began Perpetual Adoration
  5. Replaced a Sun. Spanish Mass with a TLM
These are just a few of the things he did but you get the idea. In his short time as pastor, he’s had 3 young men enter the seminary from the parish.

Is it your sense that seminarians are more open to the traditional aspects of the Faith than they were a generation ago? Do you think Fr. Zuhlsdorf is correct in his opinion that younger priests will begin to introduce more traditional practices and TLMs at the parish level over the next few years?
Interesting observations.

Without wanting to give offense, I’ll state that:
  1. this is probably a US-specific phenomenon. Where I live (and in those parts of the world I’ve visited), this isn’t really happening - and in some cases, the opposite is happening.
  2. it depends largely on the formation priests are receiving - which, again, varies widely across the world, and…
  3. …the outcry for more “Traditional Latin Masses” really hasn’t occurred in any of the parishes I’ve attended. There’s actually an SSPX Mass in my hometown (I found it on the Internet), but all my fellow Catholics stare blankly when I ask them if they’ve heard of it. 🙂 Priests tend to be in tune with their congregations, and those I’ve known (both young and old) haven’t really pushed in this direction.
 
Actually, you need to stand that on its head - young priests are far more likely to be heavily invested in Vatican 2 than their predecessors, because they are following the lead of John Paul 2 and Benedict 16, both of whom were heavily invested in Vatican 2 and sought to implement it more fully.

It was many of the priests right after Vatican 2 who, instead of sitting down and reading the documents, went off on tangents which have been denoted as “the spirit of Vatican 2”.

Pope Francis talks much of the New Evangelization; both of his predecessors did also.
Well, there’s the true Vatican 2 and there’s the “spirit of Vatican 2” which is what led the Church down the road it was on for many years. True Vatican 2 is not liberal like it has been made to be. However, many people wrongly believe that “spirit of Vatican 2” = Vatican 2.
 
I hate to disappoint but I’ve seen EF Masses disappear after the initial enthusiasm runs out. It also doesn’t help that the OF is being celebrated increasingly in a traditional manner. There’s probably growth in the EF but it’s not explosive and there’s a fairly low ceiling. One EF Mass for every 100 OF Masses seems to be roughly what the market can bare. And while you do see young families at the EF, you still can’t escape the fact that most are older.
 
I hate to disappoint but I’ve seen EF Masses disappear after the initial enthusiasm runs out. It also doesn’t help that the OF is being celebrated increasingly in a traditional manner. There’s probably growth in the EF but it’s not explosive and there’s a fairly low ceiling. One EF Mass for every 100 OF Masses seems to be roughly what the market can bare. And while you do see young families at the EF, you still can’t escape the fact that most are older.
It really depends where you go. Where I live the closest EF is new, no more than 20 people typically show up and it’s mainly populated by older people. I see a younger person every now and then.

The one about 30 minutes away has been going for much longer and gets crowded. I’d say it’s a good mixture of young and old. I would say that I probably see more people in their 20s and 30s there than I typically do in an OF Mass. Also lots of kids, people in their 40s and 50s, as well as older people.

I went to an EF in Florence, but I can’t quite remember how the crowd was.

I went to one in San Diego, very diverse crowd. People of all ages, lots of large families with lots of kids all of whom were saying the responses and singing.
 
Interesting observations.

Without wanting to give offense, I’ll state that:
  1. this is probably a US-specific phenomenon. Where I live (and in those parts of the world I’ve visited), this isn’t really happening - and in some cases, the opposite is happening.
  2. it depends largely on the formation priests are receiving - which, again, varies widely across the world, and…
  3. …the outcry for more “Traditional Latin Masses” really hasn’t occurred in any of the parishes I’ve attended. There’s actually an SSPX Mass in my hometown (I found it on the Internet), but all my fellow Catholics stare blankly when I ask them if they’ve heard of it. 🙂 Priests tend to be in tune with their congregations, and those I’ve known (both young and old) haven’t really pushed in this direction.
This I wholly agree with. I live in the US, and I can tell you that 1, 2, and 3 is exactly my experience. The existing TLM communities will probably continue to grow, but I don’t think the growth will be as dramatic and exponential in the timeline Fr. Z proclaims. I take Fr. Z with a grain of salt because he has a tendency to be polemic, which is really unhelpful in the life of the Church.
 
This I wholly agree with. I live in the US, and I can tell you that 1, 2, and 3 is exactly my experience. The existing TLM communities will probably continue to grow, but I don’t think the growth will be as dramatic and exponential in the timeline Fr. Z proclaims. I take Fr. Z with a grain of salt because he has a tendency to be polemic, which is really unhelpful in the life of the Church.
I generally find his blog quite interesting and balanced, unlike a certain R***** C**** which shall go unnamed. 😃

But I agree with you that we shouldn’t confuse local enthusiasm with a nation-wide (or, much less, a world-wide) movement. Support for the Traditional Mass will grow (which is good), but I predict that it will find a way to co-exist peacefully with the Ordinary Form of the Mass, and that the “howls of outrage and protest” that gave us the SSPV, etc… will eventually be a thing of the past. 🙂

And in some countries, a vernacular liturgy actually helps, not only with people who are less educated, but in dispelling misconceptions among those of other faiths (especially when Catholics are a numerical minority.)
 
One thing I will say is that I was talking to a younger priest. He asked me, how did you even find out about the extraordinary form Mass? He said, I had never even heard of it until I was in the seminary.

I would tend to think that for most people the same would be true, just having no idea that it exists. The lay people who know about it? Those who hear about it through word of mouth, people who come onto a forum like this, people who were around when it was still the only Mass, who else?

You surely won’t see the church in the next town posting in its bulletin urging people to check out the EF Mass.

So, I would say that the potential for growth is there and I’m sure the percentage of Catholics, especially younger ones who have never seen/heard of any other type of Mass than the OF (or even know it’s called the OF for that matter), is extremely low. The more people who know and are interested in trying it, the more potential people who grow to love it and want to go to that Mass every week.
 
Actually, you need to stand that on its head - young priests are far more likely to be heavily invested in Vatican 2 than their predecessors, because they are following the lead of John Paul 2 and Benedict 16, both of whom were heavily invested in Vatican 2 and sought to implement it more fully.

It was many of the priests right after Vatican 2 who, instead of sitting down and reading the documents, went off on tangents which have been denoted as “the spirit of Vatican 2”.

Pope Francis talks much of the New Evangelization; both of his predecessors did also.
Perhaps, but in my own experience what I have witnessed are young men, in their 20’s, entering the Seminary. Of course it might be because they were of more Traditional backgrounds.
 
One thing I will say is that I was talking to a younger priest. He asked me, how did you even find out about the extraordinary form Mass? He said, I had never even heard of it until I was in the seminary.

I would tend to think that for most people the same would be true, just having no idea that it exists. The lay people who know about it? Those who hear about it through word of mouth, people who come onto a forum like this, people who were around when it was still the only Mass, who else?

You surely won’t see the church in the next town posting in its bulletin urging people to check out the EF Mass.

So, I would say that the potential for growth is there and I’m sure the percentage of Catholics, especially younger ones who have never seen/heard of any other type of Mass than the OF (or even know it’s called the OF for that matter), is extremely low. The more people who know and are interested in trying it, the more potential people who grow to love it and want to go to that Mass every week.
You are most certainly correct that no parish, for the most part, will be urging people to attend the TLM.
 
Two and three tenths percent is one one-hundredth of a percent more than 2.29%. And although I have seen no evidence anywhere that there are 500 parishes with the EF, assume for the minute that there are 500; that makes it two and nine tenths percent (actually, 2.87%).

The number of parishes is from CARA, and I have yet to see anyone give significant dispute to their findings.
I’m sure we could do a poll in off topic to see if more people prefer:

2.3%

or “two and three tenths perecent”

to be the annotation they use and read for percentages. Would you be interested in doing that, because I would.

Also, I searched the CARA website yesterday, and couldn’t find anything. Is it free? Or is it in a publication that I would have to buy? Could you please reference the page you got it from?
 
You have a good topic here, but you have to stick to the OP. I’ve cleaned up the thread. Remember what I have said in the past about sticking closely to the subject as presented in the original post. It makes it much easier for others to enter the conversation at any point and remain on track.

Thank You
 
It really depends where you go. Where I live the closest EF is new, no more than 20 people typically show up and it’s mainly populated by older people. I see a younger person every now and then.

The one about 30 minutes away has been going for much longer and gets crowded. I’d say it’s a good mixture of young and old. I would say that I probably see more people in their 20s and 30s there than I typically do in an OF Mass. Also lots of kids, people in their 40s and 50s, as well as older people.

I went to an EF in Florence, but I can’t quite remember how the crowd was.

I went to one in San Diego, very diverse crowd. People of all ages, lots of large families with lots of kids all of whom were saying the responses and singing.
San Diego was one of the first areas to have the Extraordinary Form of the Mass after the indult was issued. I truly believe that their experience is invaluable for areas trying to implement one. It truly proved the power of prayer and persistence AND working with the Archbishop. It wasn’t easy, and they had to prove themselves but in the end, the results are nothing short of miraculous.👍
 
I hate to disappoint but I’ve seen EF Masses disappear after the initial enthusiasm runs out. It also doesn’t help that the OF is being celebrated increasingly in a traditional manner. There’s probably growth in the EF but it’s not explosive and there’s a fairly low ceiling. One EF Mass for every 100 OF Masses seems to be roughly what the market can bare. And while you do see young families at the EF, you still can’t escape the fact that most are older.
Perhaps from what you have seen, but that is not so, in my own particular case.
 
Perhaps, but in my own experience what I have witnessed are young men, in their 20’s, entering the Seminary. Of course it might be because they were of more Traditional backgrounds.
Then it would appear, unless you are talking about the miniscule number entering SSPX seminary, or the very small numbers joining a group or order whose charism is the EF, that we are talking about the same people.

According to CARA. in 2013 there were 3,694 seminarians. And you can bet your bottom dollar, whether they style themselves as traditional, or Traditional, that they are studying and learning the proper implementation of the Vatican 2 documents. Any seminarian entering a seminary which follows the Magisterium will do so; those who think they are going to be part of a movement to take the parishes back to the good old times will wash out.
 
Then it would appear, unless you are talking about the miniscule number entering SSPX seminary, or the very small numbers joining a group or order whose charism is the EF, that we are talking about the same people.
Very small numbers?

The Archdiocese of Philadelphia has 267 parishes. It’s seminary accepted eight men to study for it this year.

The FSSP’s seminary in Nebraska draws from way fewer apostolates, about 40-50 (but I’m struggling to find the exact number), it accepted 16 men to study for it.

I’m no prophet, but with numbers like that, it seems that Fr. Z might be right.
Is it your sense that seminarians are more open to the traditional aspects of the Faith than they were a generation ago?

I know numerous seminarians, and with mine, I can say yes, a thousand times yes. But much more, they are really turned away by “liberal” things (sorry, but I don’t know a better term to use). Both them and I can’t stand when people try to make the Faith “cool” with rock bands on the altar and the gooey, feel-good, Ned Flanders type activities that happen at some parishes. When I was younger, I didn’t want to go to any Church functions because I knew there would be “ice-breaker activities” and someone would make us sing “Our God is an Awesome God” with our hands in the air. shudder
 
Very small numbers?

The Archdiocese of Philadelphia has 267 parishes. It’s seminary accepted eight men to study for it this year.

The FSSP’s seminary in Nebraska draws from way fewer apostolates, about 40-50 (but I’m struggling to find the exact number), it accepted 16 men to study for it.

I’m no prophet, but with numbers like that, it seems that Fr. Z might be right.
Is it your sense that seminarians are more open to the traditional aspects of the Faith than they were a generation ago?

16 people out of over 3600 - I would call that a very small number. As in, a little over 0.4%. And if they were not in theology (the numbers from CARA were those in theology, not in college classes), then it is even less. That does not say anything bad about them in the least; it only is a reference to Father Z’s enthusiasm. Which, when you look at real world numbers, appears a bit over the top.
 
I hate to disappoint but I’ve seen EF Masses disappear after the initial enthusiasm runs out. It also doesn’t help that the OF is being celebrated increasingly in a traditional manner. There’s probably growth in the EF but it’s not explosive and there’s a fairly low ceiling. One EF Mass for every 100 OF Masses seems to be roughly what the market can bare. And while you do see young families at the EF, you still can’t escape the fact that most are older.
Don’t you and others see it as a good thing that “the OF is being celebrated increasingly in a traditional manner?”

I’ve been on CAF since 2004, and one of the constant themes is a longing for a more traditional OF Mass.
 
Sorry for my fail quote job earlier.
16 people out of over 3600 - I would call that a very small number. As in, a little over 0.4%. And if they were not in theology (the numbers from CARA were those in theology, not in college classes), then it is even less. That does not say anything bad about them in the least; it only is a reference to Father Z’s enthusiasm. Which, when you look at real world numbers, appears a bit over the top.
:confused: My point wasn’t that I think FSSP seminarians outnumber diocesan seminarians, not sure how you came to that.

Numerically, yes it is small, but proportionally, that is ridiculously big. And if things continue on that course, then Fr. Z’s prediction absolutely will come true.

And it is not as if it is only FSSP seminarians that are interested in the TLM, I’ve been to my diocesan seminary, and there is a lot of interest in it there, as well. This is not to mention some anecdotes, like that New York priest that was the only one ordained in his class that year chose to say a TLM for his first Mass.
 
I generally find his blog quite interesting and balanced, unlike a certain R***** C**** which shall go unnamed. 😃

But I agree with you that we shouldn’t confuse local enthusiasm with a nation-wide (or, much less, a world-wide) movement. Support for the Traditional Mass will grow (which is good), but I predict that it will find a way to co-exist peacefully with the Ordinary Form of the Mass, and that the “howls of outrage and protest” that gave us the SSPV, etc… will eventually be a thing of the past. 🙂

And in some countries, a vernacular liturgy actually helps, not only with people who are less educated, but in dispelling misconceptions among those of other faiths (especially when Catholics are a numerical minority.)
I would say that the United States is one of those countries that benefits from a vernacular Mass.

Many of us continue fantasizing that we are the best-educated country in the world. But over and over, testing among young people demonstrates that we are actually pretty stupid.

Our average reading level is 6th grade (the average newspaper, but not the New York Times, which is too advanced for most of us). We still have a fairly-large segment of the population that is illiterate.

More importantly, even among educated people, there is a decided dearth of knowledge and lack of appreciation and respect for history, music, art, literature, culture outside of the U.S., and foreign languages.

Although citizens of many other countries are fluent in languages other than their own, most Americans know very little of any language other than English, and many of us have a hard time understanding the dialects of our own fellow citizens in different parts of this country!

To the frustration of intellectuals and those who are more advanced in their education, what all this means is that we must cater to the lowest common denominator, or we will lose them. They simply won’t comprehend and they will walk away. The music will be “above them”, and any references that require a knowledge of history, literature, culture, geography, etc. will go right over their heads, and possibly even be misinterpreted.

I don’t see this changing in the U.S. as long as the majority of the people attend public schools and as long as we allow our children to spend so much time playing online and video games. I think people in the U.S. will get even stupider.

Perhaps this will drive a return to the EF Mass, as it was used for centuries among peoples who were mostly illiterate.

But more than likely, the OF Mass will continue to be “simplified” for the sake of those who are victims of being born in the U.S. in this time and Age of Ignorance.

I think that “traditional Catholicism” requires more knowledge and understanding than most Americans possess. Also, I think that an EF Mass requires more “work” from people, and nowadays, most of us are too impatient (part of our stupidity!) to do that work. Even in the OF Mass, most people do not even bother to pick up the hymnal and do the “work” of following along, and singing–well, the number of those who actually sing the songs is getting smaller as more and more people graduate from school without knowing how to read a line of music.

It would be wonderful to see an intellectual revival beginning and continuing in the Catholic Church (or anywhere, for that matter). I do think that many Catholic primary and secondary schools provide a higher level of education than the public schools. Unfortunately, many Catholic parish schools do not have enough space for the children in their own parish, and certainly can’t admit non-Catholics who are seeking a better education. And with the cost of college going beyond the means of most American families, it is unlikely that a majority of them will choose private Catholic colleges over cheaper community colleges and state universities.

JMO, all.
 
I would say that the United States is one of those countries that benefits from a vernacular Mass.

Many of us continue fantasizing that we are the best-educated country in the world. But over and over, testing among young people demonstrates that we are actually pretty stupid.

Our average reading level is 6th grade (the average newspaper, but not the New York Times, which is too advanced for most of us). We still have a fairly-large segment of the population that is illiterate.

More importantly, even among educated people, there is a decided dearth of knowledge and lack of appreciation and respect for history, music, art, literature, culture outside of the U.S., and foreign languages.

Although citizens of many other countries are fluent in languages other than their own, most Americans know very little of any language other than English, and many of us have a hard time understanding the dialects of our own fellow citizens in different parts of this country!

To the frustration of intellectuals and those who are more advanced in their education, what all this means is that we must cater to the lowest common denominator, or we will lose them. They simply won’t comprehend and they will walk away. The music will be “above them”, and any references that require a knowledge of history, literature, culture, geography, etc. will go right over their heads, and possibly even be misinterpreted.

I don’t see this changing in the U.S. as long as the majority of the people attend public schools and as long as we allow our children to spend so much time playing online and video games. I think people in the U.S. will get even stupider.

Perhaps this will drive a return to the EF Mass, as it was used for centuries among peoples who were mostly illiterate.

But more than likely, the OF Mass will continue to be “simplified” for the sake of those who are victims of being born in the U.S. in this time and Age of Ignorance.

I think that “traditional Catholicism” requires more knowledge and understanding than most Americans possess. Also, I think that an EF Mass requires more “work” from people, and nowadays, most of us are too impatient (part of our stupidity!) to do that work. Even in the OF Mass, most people do not even bother to pick up the hymnal and do the “work” of following along, and singing–well, the number of those who actually sing the songs is getting smaller as more and more people graduate from school without knowing how to read a line of music.

It would be wonderful to see an intellectual revival beginning and continuing in the Catholic Church (or anywhere, for that matter). I do think that many Catholic primary and secondary schools provide a higher level of education than the public schools. Unfortunately, many Catholic parish schools do not have enough space for the children in their own parish, and certainly can’t admit non-Catholics who are seeking a better education. And with the cost of college going beyond the means of most American families, it is unlikely that a majority of them will choose private Catholic colleges over cheaper community colleges and state universities.

JMO, all.
These are very interesting points. I never thought of it that way, actually. 👍

(And for much the same reasons, vernacular Masses work very well here in India, where 99% of people are most comfortable in their mother tongue, and Government-based education is of a generally low standard.)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top