The future of traditional Catholicism?

[johnmann]

Don’t you and others see it as a good thing that “the OF is being celebrated increasingly in a traditional manner?”

Yes, but it’s not necessarily good for the EF which then may lose much of its unique appeal.

 

[johnmann]

According to the FSSP website (fssp.org/en/chiffres.htm), they ordained 11 priests last year. That’s 11 in the world. In 2003, they ordained 19. So in absolute numbers, they’re minuscule. While their cumulative numbers are still growing fast, they’re starting from a very low base. Doubling a penny still leaves you with only 2 cents.

They have 55 locations in North America so they have a higher rate of ordination than your local diocese but lets not forget selection bias. Those who seek out the FSSP tend to be very religious to begin with. You won’t find the thousands of Easter-Christmas Catholics there.

Now my conjecture: The EF has room to grow but there’s generally more optimism than is warranted. This is coming from someone who once was very optimistic, 5-10 years ago.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Yes, but it’s not necessarily good for the EF which then may lose much of its unique appeal.

Overall I doubt it. A well celebrated OF mass is still quite different from an EF, generally.

 

[zab]

I hate to disappoint but I’ve seen EF Masses disappear after the initial enthusiasm runs out. It also doesn’t help that the OF is being celebrated increasingly in a traditional manner. There’s probably growth in the EF but it’s not explosive and there’s a fairly low ceiling. One EF Mass for every 100 OF Masses seems to be roughly what the market can bare. And while you do see young families at the EF, you still can’t escape the fact that most are older.

Don’t you and others see it as a good thing that “the OF is being celebrated increasingly in a traditional manner?”

I’ve been on CAF since 2004, and one of the constant themes is a longing for a more traditional OF Mass.

Yes, but it’s not necessarily good for the EF which then may lose much of its unique appeal.

I try to understand the frustration of those who were not brought up with the Latin Mass. It’s true that some of us, the ones who followed along with the English in our St. Joseph’s Missal, did not have a problem with keeping up. There is also a certain mysteriousness about the Holy Mass in Latin which appeals to some of us. Others, I think, are drawn to the nostalgia of the Latin Mass that we remember from our youth. But Cat is right when it comes to those who have an appreciation for the Mass in the vernacular, those who want and need to better understand what is being prayed and sung. And if, as Johnmann says, that the EF is disappearing in places after the initial enthusiasm runs out, and saying that it doesn’t help that the OF is being celebrated in an increasing traditional manner, then there is merit in what Cat has been trying to say. Many people like the old traditions, Latin, incense, sacred hymns and chants, but they also appreciate the vernacular. What is so difficult to understand about that

 

[ProVobis]

I try to understand the frustration of those who were not brought up with the Latin Mass. It’s true that some of us, the ones who followed along with the English in our St. Joseph’s Missal, did not have a problem with keeping up. There is also a certain mysteriousness about the Holy Mass in Latin which appeals to some of us. Others, I think, are drawn to the nostalgia of the Latin Mass that we remember from our youth. But Cat is right when it comes to those who have an appreciation for the Mass in the vernacular, those who want and need to better understand what is being prayed and sung. And if, as Johnmann says, that the EF is disappearing in places after the initial enthusiasm runs out, and saying that it doesn’t help that the OF is being celebrated in an increasing traditional manner, then there is merit in what Cat has been trying to say. Many people like the old traditions, Latin, incense, sacred hymns and chants, but they also appreciate the vernacular. What is so difficult to understand about that

Do you think things would be different if the EF were changed to be said in 500 vernaculars and the OF said only in Latin? Why or why not? Just curious.

 

[JustaServant]

I’m glad you know what the future brings .

No one knows the future. Could you be right? Certainly, but maybe 25 or 50 years from now the EF will become the OF again or maybe the OF will change and become more of a hybrid between the OF and the EF. Or something else. None of us know.

I’m sure if you asked someone in 1920 what the Mass would look like in 50 years, they wouldn’t dream in a million years of what occurred in the 1970s.

I know that the TLM has been around for nearly 2000 years and itself has evolved over time. The OF has already gone through a similar evolution.
Maybe what I should have said was that LATIN will continue to be the language of the Church.

 

[Denise1957]

But I don’t think that’s going to happen. I think that young priests who try to add too many “traditions” to the OF will meet with resistance. JMO, and that’s what the OP was asking for.

I would agree. But maybe it depends on the parish. I attended one parish this last year where the young priest added Latin responses to the OF, as well as a least one Gregorian chant to the Mass. Then after a few months, it abruptly stopped, and it was back to all vernacular. I have to think the reason is that parishioners complained.

The priest never gave a reason why it changed back, but a few months previous to this, he gave a few homilies on sin and the need to go to confession, after which he did say that parishioners complained because they though he was too harsh with his homilies on sin and confession (I didn’t think so at all! I thought his homilies on these things were quite tame). So these parishioners, I think, didn’t like change. Maybe they wanted to maintain a certain comfort level at Mass, and not be challenged too much. We often have stressful lives, and Mass is one of those constants that doesn’t change, or shouldn’t, for some folks, and that’s okay.

So I found a parish with a younger crowd who don’t mind being challenged a bit, and they have a Sunday OF with some Latin responses and chant, and the altar is incensed. It’s a very reverently said OF Mass, and well-attended. The parish also has a Sunday Mass with more modern music and no Latin responses, and it’s well-attended, too. So maybe it depends on the parish, as to how open they are to something a little different.

 

[zab]

Do you think things would be different if the EF were changed to be said in 500 vernaculars and the OF said only in Latin? Why or why not? Just curious.

Interesting question. I really don’t know and don’t care to rack my brain about it.

 

[marthaferretti]

Lawrence178;11573411:

Very small numbers?

The Archdiocese of Philadelphia has 267 parishes. It’s seminary accepted eight men to study for it this year.

The FSSP’s seminary in Nebraska draws from way fewer apostolates, about 40-50 (but I’m struggling to find the exact number), it accepted 16 men to study for it.

I’m no prophet, but with numbers like that, it seems that Fr. Z might be right.

Is it your sense that seminarians are more open to the traditional aspects of the Faith than they were a generation ago?

What you’re failing to consider is that the FSSP admitted 16 first year seminarians in the US. The seminary in NE has a total of 80 - 85 seminarians. According to their website, they have a total of 153 seminarians at all their seminaries.

My understanding is there’s plans for them to open a seminary in S. America (Brazil?) in the future.

 

[BernadetteM]

I agree. I think there is a high correlation between lovers of the Latin Mass and classical music and fine arts in general. Pope Benedict did refer to it as the “treasure” of the church.

I recall a quote by Pope Benedict that (the Anglicans coming into the Church through the Ordinariate will be bringing “treasures”. Their new liturgy is beautiful, very traditional, done in the vernacular and the members I know are very diversified. Many probably like classical music and others don’t. However, they all believe the music for the Mass should be sacred. In many ways it is very close to the traditional Latin Mass, but it is in English and the congregation participates fully.

It might solve issues with some Catholics who want a more traditional Mass, but also want it in English and be allowed to participate much more than in an EF liturgy.

We Catholics should try to attend an Eastern Rite parish and an AU parish to more fully understand how the Church is universal to all. I have attended both and feel that it helps us to appreciate the Church more, it helps understand the history of the Catholic Church, than just reading about other rites or uses can.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[otjm]

Err, yes, yes it is. Again, proportionally. You really don’t think it is even a tiny, little bit remarkable that the FSSP drew 16 new aspirants to the priesthood this past year from 50 parishes when Philadelphia only drew 8 from 267? And Philadelphia is a healthy diocese as far as dioceses go when compared to ones like Vancouver, which doesn’t ordain any priests at all many years.

For the third time, I’m not arguing that FSSP seminarians are numerically greater, so please stop acting like that is what I am trying to say. I’m trying to say that trads like this are doing something very right, and in the future, it will continue to do things right and everything trad will grow, and at a greater rate than other parts of the Church. Fr. Z is at least in part right (though I think his prediction is very optimistic).

You have singled out the FSSP; but either you are saying that the FSSP obtained 16 from Philadelphia (which is not what I think you are saying) or that they obtained 16 nationwide.
How many in this last year joined the Trappist monasteries/abbeys this last year? How many the Benedictines? How many the various Franciscans? That list goes on and on for each order.

assuming that it is nationwide, then only 16 have entered into study? And what is their rate of entrance to ordination? and for those who are not ordained FSSP, how many are later ordained either as a secular priest or join an order?
From my college entrance class of 30 in the seminary in 1964, 6 were ordained. Given that we were 18 at entrance, and the likelihood is that at lest some of the 16 may be entering at a later age, their statistics of entrance to ordination would presumably be higher. But if you are assuming that out of that 16, 16 will be ordained, then you are lacking in world-experience.

Sorry, but it is miniscule. And Benedict 16, in his letter accompanying his rule changes to the EF, said that he anticipated that the EF would be small.

8 from Philadelphia alone, and 16 from the entire US? Philadelphia rocks.

 

[otjm]

Yes, but it’s not necessarily good for the EF which then may lose much of its unique appeal.

Well, Benedict 16 said that each form could learn from the other. Strange how that is proving true…

 

[otjm]

I try to understand the frustration of those who were not brought up with the Latin Mass. It’s true that some of us, the ones who followed along with the English in our St. Joseph’s Missal, did not have a problem with keeping up. There is also a certain mysteriousness about the Holy Mass in Latin which appeals to some of us. Others, I think, are drawn to the nostalgia of the Latin Mass that we remember from our youth. But Cat is right when it comes to those who have an appreciation for the Mass in the vernacular, those who want and need to better understand what is being prayed and sung. And if, as Johnmann says, that the EF is disappearing in places after the initial enthusiasm runs out, and saying that it doesn’t help that the OF is being celebrated in an increasing traditional manner, then there is merit in what Cat has been trying to say. Many people like the old traditions, Latin, incense, sacred hymns and chants, but they also appreciate the vernacular. What is so difficult to understand about that

I am not sure I can capture an exact answer to your question. What may be making it so difficult is that there is a mindset among so many people who, over the years, have expressed feelings from dislike to outright disgust for the OF, who can’t be fast enough to make sneering comments as to its origins, and who want to put the whole process of the creation of the OF on the borderline of heresy.

And by the way, if I want incense, I just take a 40 minute ride to my somewhat local Trappist abbey and attend Mass; incense every Sunday (which was never the case prior to Vatican 2 in the parish where I grew up). Incense then was used at funerals; and beyond that, at Benediction (weekly) and at Solemn High Masses (2 per year). My parish uses incense at solemn feasts (in the OF), so it would be incorrect to say we do not see its use. That is actually more frequent now, than during the Mass pre Vatican 2.

 

[johnmann]

Well, Benedict 16 said that each form could learn from the other. Strange how that is proving true…

The OF is certainly learning from the EF. There’s no doubt about that. But I wish Rome would allow some more freedom in the EF. Permit altar girls, the OF calendar, and English-only readings at High Mass.

 

[Lawrence178]

You have singled out the FSSP; but either you are saying that the FSSP obtained 16 from Philadelphia (which is not what I think you are saying) or that they obtained 16 nationwide.
How many in this last year joined the Trappist monasteries/abbeys this last year? How many the Benedictines? How many the various Franciscans? That list goes on and on for each order.

assuming that it is nationwide, then only 16 have entered into study? And what is their rate of entrance to ordination? and for those who are not ordained FSSP, how many are later ordained either as a secular priest or join an order?
From my college entrance class of 30 in the seminary in 1964, 6 were ordained. Given that we were 18 at entrance, and the likelihood is that at lest some of the 16 may be entering at a later age, their statistics of entrance to ordination would presumably be higher. But if you are assuming that out of that 16, 16 will be ordained, then you are lacking in world-experience.

Sorry, but it is miniscule. And Benedict 16, in his letter accompanying his rule changes to the EF, said that he anticipated that the EF would be small.

8 from Philadelphia alone, and 16 from the entire US? Philadelphia rocks.

It’s immaterial how much geographical area the FSSP draws from, can’t you see that? Why in the world would that matter!?! They only have 50 parishes to draw men from. Philadelphia has 267 parishes to draw from. Yet FSSP-16, Philadelphia-8. I am just dumbfounded at your denial here. What is giving you so much trouble?

Of course I’m not assuming that all 16 will be ordained, I don’t know where you got that from at all. I am just talking about the entrance of first year seminarians because I think that it might be an indicator of vigor and life. But for your information, the FSSP ordains something like 8 priests on average a year. So that is actually better than the traditional 1/3rd number I’ve heard from vocations directors.

What makes you so afraid to acknowledge that the FSSP is doing great work? Do they frighten you or something?

And no, I’m not trying to disparage Philadelphia in any way. As I said earlier, they are actually pretty healthy, especially if compared to some other dioceses. I’ve heard Saint Charles Borromeo praised by many priests and professors I respect a lot as a beacon of orthodoxy even in the craziest times of the Church. All I am saying is that the FSSP is doing a fantastic job, and your denial of that, your disparaging of the amazing feat of drawing vocations and forming awesome traditional priests, is really bothering me.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I agree with Lawrence that it is not geographical range that matters so much in this particular issue discussion as it is number of parishes, ministries, and apostolates. A major cardinalatial metropolitan See has vastly more institutions from which to potentially/possibly draw vocations than the FSSP. If the FSSP is drawing numbers like that, then they are doing very, very well, proportionally. Their influence in absolute terms right now is probably a tenth that of the Archdiocese of Philadelphia, probably even less.

 

[YoungTradCath]

The OF is certainly learning from the EF. There’s no doubt about that. But I wish Rome would allow some more freedom in the EF. Permit altar girls, the OF calendar, and English-only readings at High Mass.

shudder

I won’t address the first two aspects (since I think they don’t need to be addressed), but why does it bother you if the readings are sung in Latin if they are followed by pre-homily readings in English?

---

Now, the reason I think Rome does not allow these things is because it would entirely disaffect the vast majority of the EF community, and there really is no good reason for any of it.

 

[Lawrence178]

The OF is certainly learning from the EF. There’s no doubt about that. But I wish Rome would allow some more freedom in the EF. Permit altar girls, the OF calendar, and English-only readings at High Mass.

I don’t know what sort of TLM people you hang out with, but I am pretty sure that altar girls wouldn’t fly in any trad community. A girl in a cassock would make me extremely uncomfortable.

I think adopting new saints into the Old Calendar (which is what I think you meant) is definitely doable, though. I’ve heard an FSSP endorse it (that is NOT to say that it is the official stance of the FSSP or even the opinion of anyone beyond this one seminarian, I’m just saying).

I’ve spoken to people that tell me that even SSPX French priests say the readings in vernacular. So that wouldn’t be completely unheard of, though I don’t understand why someone would want that.

 

[ProVobis]

I recall a quote by Pope Benedict that (the Anglicans coming into the Church through the Ordinariate will be bringing “treasures”.

It was also the Anglicans who petitioned Pope Paul to reinstate the Latin Mass. When he read that Agatha Christie was among the petitioners, he granted the indult.

She kept things alive for the traditional movement at the very least.

Also, for what it’s worth, the mayor of London is fully supportive of Latin.

Mayor urges London state schools to teach Latin

The ancient language helps develop analytical thinking
London mayor Boris Johnson has urged more state schools to teach Latin to stop the language from being “the fodder of the independent sector”.

A study by Friends of Classics, unveiled at a meeting, found that 2% to 4% of state primary schools teach Latin compared to 40% of independent schools.

Head teachers of primary and secondary schools met the mayor, himself a classics student, at City Hall.

Mr Johnson said it was “absurd” for Latin to be left out of the curriculum.

There is no question that the demand is there for Latin

Dr Peter Jones, Friends of Classics
Mr Johnson, who studied the language at Eton and at Oxford, said: "I firmly believe that we must not starve the minds of students eager to embrace the great intellectual disciplines of Latin.

"And we must stop the classics being the fodder of the independent sector alone.

“There is simply no better way than to make young minds think in a logical and analytical way.”

Dr Peter Jones, co-founder of Friends of Classics, said: “There is no question that the demand is there for Latin.”

The study found that a big reason for not teaching the language was lack of funds and resources, with 40% of schools facing difficulty in recruiting staff trained in Latin.

TV presenter

Also, more than half the state schools found it hard to allocate slots for it on the timetable, the report found.

The event will also hear from the Barking Abbey state secondary school, in Barking and Dagenham, which introduced Latin in the curriculum a few years ago.

Anthony Moloney, head of classics and ancient studies at the school, said: “We currently have 50 students across all years studying Latin and I believe it has a place in every school.”

TV presenter Bettany Hughes, who is also President of the Joint Association of Classical Teachers, joined the mayor at the event.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/8571662.stm

(You might have to highlight it in order to read it. Invisible ink. )

 

[YoungTradCath]

shudder

I won’t address the first two aspects (since I think they don’t need to be addressed), but why does it bother you if the readings are sung in Latin if they are followed by pre-homily readings in English?

---

Now, the reason I think Rome does not allow these things is because it would entirely disaffect the vast majority of the EF community, and there really is no good reason for any of it.

I partially retract my comments regarding the calendar generally. I think it would be a major mistake to import the OF calendar wholesale for the EF, but I am not opposed to bringing in some of the modern saints to the calendar. In fact, I think this is a good thing.