The future of traditional Catholicism?

[marthaferretti]

I’ve followed the growth of traditional Catholicism in the US over the last 20 years when there were approximately 20 weekly TLM in 1991 to over 400 today.

Fr. Zuhlsdorf has written several times on his blog that he expects a different attitude among the priesthood towards the TLM over the next 10-15 years as those ordained in the 60’s, 70’s & 80’s are replaced by new ordinands who seem more receptive to the TLM.

This happened at a parish in my hometown when a new pastor (convert) was named. He put the kibosh on the plans to build a church in the round even though the plans were finalized and paid for. He built a traditional Gothic style church instead.

He also:

1. Reserved serving the altar to boys and young men only (cassocks only)
2. Encouraged reception of Holy Communion while kneeling and on the tongue
3. Instituted a weekly TLM on Wed. evenings
4. Began Perpetual Adoration
5. Replaced a Sun. Spanish Mass with a TLM

These are just a few of the things he did but you get the idea. In his short time as pastor, he’s had 3 young men enter the seminary from the parish.

Is it your sense that seminarians are more open to the traditional aspects of the Faith than they were a generation ago? Do you think Fr. Zuhlsdorf is correct in his opinion that younger priests will begin to introduce more traditional practices and TLMs at the parish level over the next few years?

 

[SuperLuigi]

I’ve followed the growth of traditional Catholicism in the US over the last 20 years when there were approximately 20 weekly TLM in 1991 to over 400 today.

Fr. Zuhlsdorf has written several times on his blog that he expects a different attitude among the priesthood towards the TLM over the next 10-15 years as those ordained in the 60’s, 70’s & 80’s are replaced by new ordinands who seem more receptive to the TLM.

This happened at a parish in my hometown when a new pastor (convert) was named. He put the kibosh on the plans to build a church in the round even though the plans were finalized and paid for. He built a traditional Gothic style church instead.

He also:

1. Reserved serving the altar to boys and young men only (cassocks only)
2. Encouraged reception of Holy Communion while kneeling and on the tongue
3. Instituted a weekly TLM on Wed. evenings
4. Began Perpetual Adoration
5. Replaced a Sun. Spanish Mass with a TLM

These are just a few of the things he did but you get the idea. In his short time as pastor, he’s had 3 young men enter the seminary from the parish.

Is it your sense that seminarians are more open to the traditional aspects of the Faith than they were a generation ago? Do you think Fr. Zuhlsdorf is correct in his opinion that younger priests will begin to introduce more traditional practices and TLMs at the parish level over the next few years?

I think so. There seems to be a conservative (ie orthodox) movement about some of the newer priests.

 

[otjm]

I think that the change in attitude has already occurred; the priests are often called the John Paul 2 priests. The goofiness of those ordained prior to his pontificate is already being toned down as the priests who have been ordained in the last 15 to 20 or more years simply do not have the agendas the older priests did.

Your question pops up periodically in this forum in different forms. As has been occurring over the last 20 years, the EF will see wider acceptance. How much wider, only time will tell, but the expectations that are often voiced do not seem, at times, to have as much perspective as they have enthusiasm. To wit: there are 17,413 parishes listed in the United States as of the last count (2013) by CARA. 400 parishes out of the total puts the % of parishes having an EF Mass at just less than two and three tenths percent of all parishes with an EF. That is without doubt far better than 20 years ago, but also seems to prove the comment by Benedict 16 that he expected that the EF would remain a minority.

The other side of the coin is that the new priests are far more aware of “saying the black and doing the red” as Father Zuhlsdorf has said, than some of the older priests. In short, the sense of the sacred is far more evident.

 

[sirach2v4]

I can’t answer your most pressing questions. Do I take it that you like TLM ("the latin Mass’)?

I used to be an altar boy, over 50 years ago, and the solemn high masses that I see on EWTN never happened in my church, that’s for sure. There were never so many nitpicking details like I see on EWTN, to the point of near absurdity.

I never saw so many nitpicking details even in pontifical masses that were broadcast from the Vatican on Christmas.

To me, the chief characteristic of the Latin Mass is that they were in Latin. The solemn Masses did not have such pointless nitpicking details as I see today.

The Latin Masses also had virtually no congregational participation, except for singing. And, there were about 6 to 10 different melodies that I heard. It wasn’t the same dreary melody that you hear daily on EWTN. There were Masses for the dead with downright sorrowful melodies, and there were joyous Mass compositions which were highly artistic.

With a Latin Mass before, I could meditate for a long time until the epistle and gospel were read in English.

But, I liked the change to English. I expected an explosion of new music in the Mass – which has never been realized.

I really only like the organ, and not guitars and pianos, for Mass. What’s holy about pianos? Pipe organs were made for grand musical compositions. Pianos just don’t cut it, for me.

What was your question? the future of traditional Catholicism? That’s an odd question. Catholicism won’t change much. If you’re really talking about the liturgy, There’s got to be a great future for the English Mass, because there’s not much tradition to worry about.

 

[McCall1981]

I’ve followed the growth of traditional Catholicism in the US over the last 20 years when there were approximately 20 weekly TLM in 1991 to over 400 today.

Fr. Zuhlsdorf has written several times on his blog that he expects a different attitude among the priesthood towards the TLM over the next 10-15 years as those ordained in the 60’s, 70’s & 80’s are replaced by new ordinands who seem more receptive to the TLM.

This happened at a parish in my hometown when a new pastor (convert) was named. He put the kibosh on the plans to build a church in the round even though the plans were finalized and paid for. He built a traditional Gothic style church instead.

He also:

1. Reserved serving the altar to boys and young men only (cassocks only)
2. Encouraged reception of Holy Communion while kneeling and on the tongue
3. Instituted a weekly TLM on Wed. evenings
4. Began Perpetual Adoration
5. Replaced a Sun. Spanish Mass with a TLM

These are just a few of the things he did but you get the idea. In his short time as pastor, he’s had 3 young men enter the seminary from the parish.

Is it your sense that seminarians are more open to the traditional aspects of the Faith than they were a generation ago? Do you think Fr. Zuhlsdorf is correct in his opinion that younger priests will begin to introduce more traditional practices and TLMs at the parish level over the next few years?

This is definitely the trend I have observed and read about as well.

 

[GangGreen]

The younger priests that I’ve met all seem to be more orthodox/conservative. I know one in a nearby parish who said he’s in the progress of learning the EF. I think it’s something that we’ll continue to see growing as this new generation of priests comes up and the old generation dwindles.

 

[angell1]

I’ve followed the growth of traditional Catholicism in the US over the last 20 years when there were approximately 20 weekly TLM in 1991 to over 400 today.

Fr. Zuhlsdorf has written several times on his blog that he expects a different attitude among the priesthood towards the TLM over the next 10-15 years as those ordained in the 60’s, 70’s & 80’s are replaced by new ordinands who seem more receptive to the TLM.

This happened at a parish in my hometown when a new pastor (convert) was named. He put the kibosh on the plans to build a church in the round even though the plans were finalized and paid for. He built a traditional Gothic style church instead.

He also:

1. Reserved serving the altar to boys and young men only (cassocks only)
2. Encouraged reception of Holy Communion while kneeling and on the tongue
3. Instituted a weekly TLM on Wed. evenings
4. Began Perpetual Adoration
5. Replaced a Sun. Spanish Mass with a TLM

These are just a few of the things he did but you get the idea. In his short time as pastor, he’s had 3 young men enter the seminary from the parish.

Is it your sense that seminarians are more open to the traditional aspects of the Faith than they were a generation ago? Do you think Fr. Zuhlsdorf is correct in his opinion that younger priests will begin to introduce more traditional practices and TLMs at the parish level over the next few years?

i’m sorry guys, i don’t agree. blaming the decline of priests on certain changes after vatican II is just not cutting it for me. ther’es only one latin parish in the whole city where i live and i know plenty of people who are seminarians who are not from there. has it occurred to anyone that vaitcan II happened because tere were already problems in the church? if God is truly calling someone to be a priest, do you thik a silly little thing like altar girls is going to stop him?

don’t get me wrong, i am in no way saying that the older traditions are wrong. they are not, and i have great respect for them. it’s just seems to be a tendency for people who prefer the tlm to not extend this respect to change aas well. change is not always a bad thing and Jesus did warn us not to get too attached to our human traditions.

 

[universityprof]

I’ve followed the growth of traditional Catholicism in the US over the last 20 years when there were approximately 20 weekly TLM in 1991 to over 400 today.

Fr. Zuhlsdorf has written several times on his blog that he expects a different attitude among the priesthood towards the TLM over the next 10-15 years as those ordained in the 60’s, 70’s & 80’s are replaced by new ordinands who seem more receptive to the TLM.

This happened at a parish in my hometown when a new pastor (convert) was named. He put the kibosh on the plans to build a church in the round even though the plans were finalized and paid for. He built a traditional Gothic style church instead.

He also:

1. Reserved serving the altar to boys and young men only (cassocks only)
2. Encouraged reception of Holy Communion while kneeling and on the tongue
3. Instituted a weekly TLM on Wed. evenings
4. Began Perpetual Adoration
5. Replaced a Sun. Spanish Mass with a TLM

These are just a few of the things he did but you get the idea. In his short time as pastor, he’s had 3 young men enter the seminary from the parish.

Is it your sense that seminarians are more open to the traditional aspects of the Faith than they were a generation ago? Do you think Fr. Zuhlsdorf is correct in his opinion that younger priests will begin to introduce more traditional practices and TLMs at the parish level over the next few years?

I don’t believe Fr. Zuhlsdorf guess is correct, at least I hope he is not. That certainly has not been the case in a few dioceses I observed over the past few years. Only time will tell but I don’t see it happening. If it does, in my opinion, it will further alienate many of the faithful and they will continue to leave the church in large numbers.

 

[TimothyH]

I think that the change in attitude has already occurred; the priests are often called the John Paul 2 priests. The goofiness of those ordained prior to his pontificate is already being toned down as the priests who have been ordained in the last 15 to 20 or more years simply do not have the agendas the older priests did…

Not three posts into this thread and we have already managed to insult an entire generation of clergy.

If the traditionalist movement dies it will be because it has ostracized itself from the mainstream. The condescension exhibited in this post will cause the mainstream to want to disassociate - that’s already happening in a big way. People are already scared away by the militant language as well. The anger of some in the movement will rot it from the inside.

It will be a shame too because there is much good in the movement. I hope the movement doesn’t die, just that it softens a bit.

-Tim-

 

[Razanir]

I can’t answer your most pressing questions. Do I take it that you like TLM ("the latin Mass’)?

TLM is actually “traditional Latin Mass”, hence why everyone calls it the TLM.

My actually constructive comments:
*What do you mean by “a church in the round”? When I hear that, I initially imagine the theatrical definition of “in the round”, where the altar is dead center. But then again, I also image a round church (like my home parish), which I don’t see much wrong with. (But then again, I’m used to having a round church).
*I agree about newer priests. My home parish’s younger priest seems a lot more “traditional” than our older one.

 

[Neofight]

Not three posts into this thread and we have already managed to insult an entire generation of clergy.

If the traditionalist movement dies it will be because it has ostracized itself from the mainstream. The condescension exhibited in this post will cause the mainstream to want to disassociate - that’s already happening in a big way. People are already scared away by the militant language as well. The anger of some in the movement will rot it from the inside.

It will be a shame too because there is much good in the movement. I hope the movement doesn’t die, just that it softens a bit.

-Tim-

Dittos:thumbsup:

More emphasis should be placed on how we live our lives than just how we dress for mass, follow which missal, or the architecture of our churches.

 

[GangGreen]

Not three posts into this thread and we have already managed to insult an entire generation of clergy.

If the traditionalist movement dies it will be because it has ostracized itself from the mainstream. The condescension exhibited in this post will cause the mainstream to want to disassociate - that’s already happening in a big way. People are already scared away by the militant language as well. The anger of some in the movement will rot it from the inside.

It will be a shame too because there is much good in the movement. I hope the movement doesn’t die, just that it softens a bit.

-Tim-

I can agree that there are too many extreme traditionalists. I think the way they go about constantly attacking the Pope and every little thing that’s not traditional enough is the wrong way to go about it.

However, one cannot deny that many priests of the 60s, 70s, and 80s generation are quite liberal. That’s not to say there aren’t traditional priests in that group, but I tend to find that the most traditional priests are the pre-vatican II priests who still desire a return to the older ways (not all are like this) and this newer generation who seem to be drawn to the old ways.

 

[adawgj]

The younger priests that I’ve met all seem to be more orthodox/conservative. I know one in a nearby parish who said he’s in the progress of learning the EF. I think it’s something that we’ll continue to see growing as this new generation of priests comes up and the old generation dwindles.

I think so too. out of all the people I’ve contacted who are discerning priesthood (myself included) tend to be more in favor of tradition. I think once someone does the research and reads up on the traditions that he never knew about before, tends to want to be more traditional. I know that’s how I was.

 

[marthaferretti]

@TimH

I think I failed to make my point.

The priest I referenced in my OP made the changes he did not because of a huge ground swell from parishioners. My understanding is that he made the changes because he thought it was the proper thing to do.

My question was if the many/most seminarians of today are like minded as this priest in their vocation, then can we expect future priests introducing similar changes in their parishes? As the younger priests assume positions of authority as pastors and bishops, will this trend become more common even if there are no requests from parishioners?

From the magazines and websites I’ve read, many of those Catholics who were uncomfortable with the changes of the late 60’s were treated rather uncharitably by those you term the mainstream. Many stopped practicing their Faith. Are you familiar with Mass attendance figures for the last 40 years? So to be fair, the objections you raise cut both ways.

 

[MorEphrem]

More emphasis should be placed on how we live our lives than just how we dress for mass, follow which missal, or the architecture of our churches.

Certainly values are extremely important in living the life of a Christian, but that’s irrelevant since no one denies that. However, if one would simply like to be an atheistic humanist with values and lacking proper worship an Apostolic faith is not for them.

Far too often I hear people advocate a certain strain of Protestantism approach of minimizing the worship of God and focus on “how we live our lives” exclusively. We must remember that religion is about glorifying God. We must conduct ourselves properly in all ways - in liturgy and deed outside the church. The vague dichotomy that I hear people occasionally make between proper liturgy and being a good person is quite atrocious in my opinion because we’re called to both. We must worship at all moments of our lives, inclusive of the actions. A revival of proper, stricter liturgy, I feel, will translate over in the non-liturgical lives of people - I certainly know with myself the more I pray on something the more I’m prepared for it, the more I’ll demonstrate patience with another person, etc. But it must be noted orthopraxis comes only from first having a basis in orthodoxy - the other way around does not work and hence why it’s also not sufficient for us Christians.

That being said, I think the traditional movement will be stunted in growth. Under Benedict I think there was a particular burst of enthusiasm but there is a less friendly environment for traditionalists since those who misunderstand Tradition think that it is a balancing act between orthopraxis and orthodoxy and that orthopraxis can precede orthodoxy.

 

[RC_Sojourner]

Your question pops up periodically in this forum in different forms. As has been occurring over the last 20 years, the EF will see wider acceptance. How much wider, only time will tell, but the expectations that are often voiced do not seem, at times, to have as much perspective as they have enthusiasm. To wit: there are 17,413 parishes listed in the United States as of the last count (2013) by CARA. 400 parishes out of the total puts the % of parishes having an EF Mass at** just less than two and three tenths percent** of all parishes with an EF. That is without doubt far better than 20 years ago, but also seems to prove the comment by Benedict 16 that he expected that the EF would remain a minority. .

Sorry, but you did your math wrong. 10% of 17,000 is 1,700 and 1% of 17,000 is 170. Therefore, 400 Latin Masses could never equal only a few tenths of a percent. 2-3 percent of parishes have the EF. [Exactly 2.29%, if we’re to assume that the 17,413 figure is accurate to how many parishes there are in the U.S., and if 400 is accurate as to how many Latin masses there are].

I imagine both numbers are incorrect. For instance, there is a Latin Mass that I know of, that is not in a parish, but a monastery. The lay faithful go. So, are Churches like that counted, that is: where TLMs are taking place, but not under a Diocese, through a religious order?

I may comment on the substance of the thread eventually… but Catholic statistics interest me far too greatly.

 

[ProVobis]

Sorry, but you did your math wrong. 10% of 17,000 is 1,700 and 1% of 17,000 is 170. Therefore, 400 Latin Masses could never equal only a few tenths of a percent. 2-3 percent of parishes have the EF. [Exactly 2.29%, if we’re to assume that the 17,413 figure is accurate to how many parishes there are in the U.S., and if 400 is accurate as to how many Latin masses there are].

What are not counted are the infrequent TLMs at some parishes or at chapels or even in people’s homes. Yes, some are illicit so I won’t talk about them. But someone mentioned that in the Arlington diocese half the priests there have celebrated the EF at one time or another. And the study of Latin has increased in the U.K. so…

I would also bet that there is a correlation between love of classical music/fine arts and love for the Latin in the liturgy (either OF or EF) but I don’t have hard evidence for this.

 

[godisgood77]

I think so. There seems to be a conservative (ie orthodox) movement about some of the newer priests.

Agree with everything in this read up to making orthodox synonymous with conservative. Otherwise, yes, I think there will continue to be an increase in the availability of TLM and a balancing between the two forms of mass.

 

[TimothyH]

@TimH

I think I failed to make my point.

The priest I referenced in my OP made the changes he did not because of a huge ground swell from parishioners. My understanding is that he made the changes because he thought it was the proper thing to do.

My question was if the many/most seminarians of today are like minded as this priest in their vocation, then can we expect future priests introducing similar changes in their parishes? As the younger priests assume positions of authority as pastors and bishops, will this trend become more common even if there are no requests from parishioners?

From the magazines and websites I’ve read, many of those Catholics who were uncomfortable with the changes of the late 60’s were treated rather uncharitably by those you term the mainstream. Many stopped practicing their Faith. Are you familiar with Mass attendance figures for the last 40 years? So to be fair, the objections you raise cut both ways.

I raised objections to condescension, militancy, anger and insult. I’ll add fanaticism to that list. The most casual observer of Christianity understands that these are universally condemned. There is therefor no “both ways” but only one way, and these are not it.

Your exact question was:

Is it your sense that seminarians are more open to the traditional aspects of the Faith than they were a generation ago? Do you think Fr. Zuhlsdorf is correct in his opinion that younger priests will begin to introduce more traditional practices and TLMs at the parish level over the next few years?

I’ll answer yes. That is my sense. As an example, I recently saw a chalice veil for the first time at a young priest’s first Mass. The communion song was Ave Verum Corpus sung acapella by a young soprano deacon standing next to the tabernacle. Torch bearers too. Those are just two examples of what was a sublime Mass. Most people had never seen a Mass like it and and were blown away.

But I think there are things more traditional than chalice veils, boy altar servers and reception on the tongue. Restoration of the permanent diaconate after 1000 years of disuse is one. Restoring the order of reception of the sacraments of institution to the way it is supposed to be - baptism, then confirmation then first Eucharist and lowering the confirmation age to second grade is another. This is the way it was done in the early Church. The Bishops of Fargo ND and Phoenix AZ restored the order of the sacraments and were praised by the Pope for it.

The subject of your post asks about the future so I don’t think that I am off topic when I suggest that any traditional practices or traditionalism movement, when accompanied by condescension, militancy, anger, fanaticism and insult cannot possibly be authentic actions of the Holy Spirit within the Church. Such a movement will die. I say good riddance.

If any traditionalism movement is authentic then it will produce a spirit of peace. That peace will draw people like moths to a flame. It will be unstoppable.

-Tim-

 

[CrossofChrist]

I think there will be somewhat of a return to more traditional practices both in and outside of the Mass, but I’m doubtful as to whether or not the EF will be come much more mainstream.