The future of traditional Catholicism?

[sebastian1213]

It was also the Anglicans who petitioned Pope Paul to reinstate the Latin Mass. When he read that Agatha Christie was among the petitioners, he granted the indult.

She kept things alive for the traditional movement at the very least.

Also, for what it’s worth, the mayor of London is fully supportive of Latin.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/8571662.stm

(You might have to highlight it in order to read it. Invisible ink. )

If I am correct, the Tridentine Mass was never abrogated; and that is to say it did not need “re-instatement”.

 

[m134e5]

I agree with you on the vocations thing. I’ve spoken to a lot of people that believe that the priesthood, even religion in general is for feminine men. That is an extreme deterrent for teenage boys. Using altar boys whenever possible would go a ways to reverse that image.

It doesn’t help when the music is emotion-based and of low-quality, religion class is nothing but discussion of each others’ feelings, and Jesus- the King of Kings- is portrayed as an effeminate naive cartoon hippie who walks around with a dumb smile on his face. It especially doesn’t help that when the kids who recognize this are ridiculed by teachers, DRE’s, parents, and even priests at times for not participating or for doing so reluctantly, Although it is not meant to be, religion can be a very emasculating experience for many boys (and certainly doesn’t help out the girls either).

Using altar boys can help, but even if it’s all boys it’s not necessarily the “cool” thing to do (the movie “Going My Way” illustrates this well). They need more than that. They need priests who are good father figures- priests *are *fathers- it’s more than just a title. They need catechists who are good teachers both by the content they present and by the way they live and interact with the young. They need strong families, and for priests and lay catechists to be especially strong for those who do not have strong families and heavily depend on them for personal affirmation and faith formation.

 

[Lawrence178]

It doesn’t help when the music is emotion-based and of low-quality, religion class is nothing but discussion of each others’ feelings, and Jesus- the King of Kings- is portrayed as an effeminate naive cartoon hippie who walks around with a dumb smile on his face. It especially doesn’t help that when the kids who recognize this are ridiculed by teachers, DRE’s, parents, and even priests at times for not participating or for doing so reluctantly, Although it is not meant to be, religion can be a very emasculating experience for many boys (and certainly doesn’t help out the girls either).

Using altar boys can help, but even if it’s all boys it’s not necessarily the “cool” thing to do (the movie “Going My Way” illustrates this well). They need more than that. They need priests who are good father figures- priests *are *fathers- it’s more than just a title. They need catechists who are good teachers both by the content they present and by the way they live and interact with the young. They need strong families, and for priests and lay catechists to be especially strong for those who do not have strong families and heavily depend on them for personal affirmation and faith formation.

Lol, agreed 100%!

When I was a bit younger (as I’ve already said on this thread, I think), I dreaded going to Church activities because I knew we would be forced to put our hands in the air and sing “Our God is an Awesome God” whilst playing some rousing ice-breaker games.

I think going 100% altar boys (bonus if they are in cassock and surplice) would go further than you think to get rid of the effeminate man image, though. Of course all of those other things you mention would be golden, too!

 

[otjm]

It’s immaterial how much geographical area the FSSP draws from, can’t you see that? Why in the world would that matter!?! They only have 50 parishes to draw men from.

No, you don’t get it. The Benedictines don’t have any parishes. The Trappists don’t have any parishes. It isn’t a matter that they have 50 parishes; young men can come from any parish in the Untied States. The FSSP have enough connections out there that they can draw from anywhere. It is just your assumption that they are all from FSSP parishes.

Philadelphia has 267 parishes to draw from. Yet FSSP-16, Philadelphia-8. I am just dumbfounded at your denial here. What is giving you so much trouble?

I am not having any trouble at all. You are 19; I am 67 and have been in seminary when I was young. I have a bit more world experience than you and see things a bit differently. I have seen the enthusiasm since Benedict 16 released the EF, and the enthusiasm is great; but the perspective tends to be extremely narrow.

Of course I’m not assuming that all 16 will be ordained, I don’t know where you got that from at all. I am just talking about the entrance of first year seminarians because I think that it might be an indicator of vigor and life. But for your information, the FSSP ordains something like 8 priests on average a year. So that is actually better than the traditional 1/3rd number I’ve heard from vocations directors.

It is easy to quote statistics when you don’t know what they cover.

What makes you so afraid to acknowledge that the FSSP is doing great work? Do they frighten you or something?

Try going back through my posts and reading what I say without your emotions attached. I am not afraid of anything, nor am I disparaging the work of the FSSP. For that matter, I don’t disparage the work of St John Cantius. If you want to deal with fact, we can talk facts. If you want to make comments like that innuendo, you are not going to get very far.

And no, I’m not trying to disparage Philadelphia in any way. As I said earlier, they are actually pretty healthy, especially if compared to some other dioceses. I’ve heard Saint Charles Borromeo praised by many priests and professors I respect a lot as a beacon of orthodoxy even in the craziest times of the Church. All I am saying is that the FSSP is doing a fantastic job, and your denial of that, your disparaging of the amazing feat of drawing vocations and forming awesome traditional priests, is really bothering me.

You need to learn to read without having your emotions on your sleeve. I have not disparaged anyone, nor have I ever denied the work of the FSSP.

You obviously did not get the drift of my prior post. It is not disparaging to say that the FSSP got 16 young men from the entire United States. The Benedictines draw from across the United States; the Trappists do likewise. Obviously you did not get the point.

 

[otjm]

Speaking as a seminarian…YES! Many of us would love to be able to institute this kind of change upon ordination as well!

If you are suggesting that many seminarians would like to say the EF in their parishes, that is one thing very positive, as it would fast bring to the surface how many people with to attend.

However, if you are saying that you wish to go into parishes and convert them to EF parishes, then either they are not teaching you what Benedict had to say, or you are not paying attention. Just as those who wish to have the EF should have it made available to them, so also those who wish the OF. And so far, the greater majority of parishioners prefer the OF.

 

[TimothyH]

Who says things are *supposed *to be that way?

The action was praised by Pope Benedict XVI.

***“I was very surprised in what the Pope said to me, in terms of how happy he was that the sacraments of initiation have been restored to their proper order of baptism, confirmation then first Eucharist,” said Bishop Aquila, after meeting Pope Benedict on March 8. ***

Reference catholicnewsagency.com/news/bishop-aquila-receives-popes-praise-for-reordering-sacraments/

-Tim-

 

[otjm]

Changing these things are fine, but I am wary of changing things because it is “the way it was done in the early Church.” From my experience, the people who cite this reason are mostly either over 50 and want to be as different as possible from the “oppressive,” “rigid” Church of their childhood or they were taught by those people and never questioned them.

You are a bit confused. It was people like John Paul 2 and Benedict 16.It is a shame that people don’t know what was going on prior to Vatican 2, with the approval of the Church in Vatican 2.

 

[TimothyH]

Who says things are *supposed *to be that way? It’s fine if a bishop wants to change the order of the sacraments of initiation to an order that was used long ago, but at one time someone saw a need to change that order. Maybe at least in some places that need is no longer an issue so some bishops have seen fit to change it back.

Changing these things are fine, but I am wary of changing things because it is “the way it was done in the early Church.” From my experience, the people who cite this reason are mostly either over 50 and want to be as different as possible from the “oppressive,” “rigid” Church of their childhood or they were taught by those people and never questioned them. They do wacky, unnecessary things. Some, like installing big tubs for baptismal fonts, are just strange. Others, such as using leavened bread for the Eucharist (in a Latin-Rite church), are illicit. Still others, such as using altar bread that has honey in it, invalidate the Mass.

Restoration of the order of the sacraments of initiation was praised by Pope Benedict XVI.

***“I was very surprised in what the Pope said to me, in terms of how happy he was that the sacraments of initiation have been restored to their proper order of baptism, confirmation then first Eucharist,” said Bishop Aquila, after meeting Pope Benedict on March 8. ***

Reference catholicnewsagency.com/news/bishop-aquila-receives-popes-praise-for-reordering-sacraments/

Immersion is not strange. It was the norm in the Church for 1200 years. It is a fuller sign than is sprinkling because it is closer to the original baptisma/mikveh which Jesus underwent in the Jordan River at the hands of his cousin John. You should read the early Baptism liturgies. They are beautiful. Like it or not, the Church is slowly moving back towards that fuller sign.

I am over 50. I too generalized much in my youth.

-Tim-

 

[ProVobis]

If I am correct, the Tridentine Mass was never abrogated; and that is to say it did not need “re-instatement”.

It probably didn’t need to be indulted either, but what’s done is done.

 

[m134e5]

The action was praised by Pope Benedict XVI.
***“I was very surprised in what the Pope said to me, in terms of how happy he was that the sacraments of initiation have been restored to their proper order of baptism, confirmation then first Eucharist,” said Bishop Aquila, after meeting Pope Benedict on March 8. ***Reference catholicnewsagency.com/news/bishop-aquila-receives-popes-praise-for-reordering-sacraments/

Justification can be made for this issue, however I have seen a number of unnecessary (installing hot-tub like baptismal fonts) or illicit things (using leavened altar bread in a Roman Rite liturgy) done with the claim of wanting to be like the early Church. I have seen these things promoted by people who who want to get away from the “old-church” model that they view as “rigid.” Because of the damage I have seen caused by their vision for the Church, I am very cautious when a new idea is proposed and defended by a supposed desire to more closely model the early Church.

It reminds me a lot of people from the western world who join far eastern religions and praise them for how ancient they are when in reality they just want a religion which requires no faith and does not require that we take up our cross.

 

[kim_zef]

I am a convert (2003) and didn’t know anything about
TLM until recently. I attended a TLM and found it
kind of long and boring, but, hey, at least you don’t run
into any pro-abortion,pro-gay marriage Catholics
there.

The recent persecution of the FFI religious prompted
me to begin researching how the Novus Ordo came
into being. I read from a lot of different sources
and most of the information is verifiable. It’s
shocking and frightening. Call them conspiracy
theories if you’d like.

As a result of my research, I have decided to
affiliate with a parish that has TLM.

 

[Cat]

Justification can be made for this issue, however I have seen a number of unnecessary (installing hot-tub like baptismal fonts) or illicit things (using leavened altar bread in a Roman Rite liturgy) done with the claim of wanting to be like the early Church. I have seen these things promoted by people who who want to get away from the “old-church” model that they view as “rigid.” Because of the damage I have seen caused by their vision for the Church, I am very cautious when a new idea is proposed and defended by a supposed desire to more closely model the early Church.

It reminds me a lot of people from the western world who join far eastern religions and praise them for how ancient they are when in reality they just want a religion which requires no faith and does not require that we take up our cross.

What is the alternative to “hot-tub-like baptismal fonts” for those being baptized by immersion in the Catholic Church?

What I’ve seen is that those catechumens or candidates who desire to be baptized by immersion before their Confirmation have to borrow baptismals from nearby Evangelical Protestant churches. Is that the alternative?

 

[ProVobis]

Justification can be made for this issue, however I have seen a number of unnecessary (installing hot-tub like baptismal fonts) or illicit things (using leavened altar bread in a Roman Rite liturgy) done with the claim of wanting to be like the early Church. I have seen these things promoted by people who who want to get away from the “old-church” model that they view as “rigid.” Because of the damage I have seen caused by their vision for the Church, I am very cautious when a new idea is proposed and defended by a supposed desire to more closely model the early Church.

It reminds me a lot of people from the western world who join far eastern religions and praise them for how ancient they are when in reality they just want a religion which requires no faith and does not require that we take up our cross.

Good points.

It’s interesting how some have no problem with going back to the practices of the early church (which we have very vague recollections of) but they ridicule those who want to “turn back the clock” just 50 years. Is there an ideal period which we can all be comfortable with?

 

[Lawrence178]

No, you don’t get it. The Benedictines don’t have any parishes. The Trappists don’t have any parishes. It isn’t a matter that they have 50 parishes; young men can come from any parish in the Untied States. The FSSP have enough connections out there that they can draw from anywhere. It is just your assumption that they are all from FSSP parishes. I am not having any trouble at all. You are 19; I am 67 and have been in seminary when I was young. I have a bit more world experience than you and see things a bit differently. I have seen the enthusiasm since Benedict 16 released the EF, and the enthusiasm is great; but the perspective tends to be extremely narrow.

It is easy to quote statistics when you don’t know what they cover.

Try going back through my posts and reading what I say without your emotions attached. I am not afraid of anything, nor am I disparaging the work of the FSSP. For that matter, I don’t disparage the work of St John Cantius. If you want to deal with fact, we can talk facts. If you want to make comments like that innuendo, you are not going to get very far.

You need to learn to read without having your emotions on your sleeve. I have not disparaged anyone, nor have I ever denied the work of the FSSP.

You obviously did not get the drift of my prior post. It is not disparaging to say that the FSSP got 16 young men from the entire United States. The Benedictines draw from across the United States; the Trappists do likewise. Obviously you did not get the point.

You really don’t see any difference, any at all, between the Trappists and the FSSP? They draw very different men in very different ways. The FSSP is an institution of apostolic life that just trains parish priests. It draws from the same type of men in the same type of way that diocesan seminaries do, Trappists do not.

Men can come and study for Philadelphia from anywhere too. In fact, when I visited, I met one who was doing just that, and I seriously doubt he was the first. I’m sure there are also FSSP men who didn’t go to FSSP parishes. But the norm is obviously that they do come from respective parishes in both cases.

And yes, you were disparaging the FSSP. I was saying it was amazing that they drew 16 men and you just said something like “Psssht, they cover the entire US, easy peasy! Philadelphia only has Philadelphia to draw from, so it rocks that they got eight guys!” But that is not true, the FSSP is doing AMAZING work, it is doing a FANTASTIC job at forming many traditional and orthodox priests, especially considering its extremely limited resources and pool of men to draw from in its parishes (because again, no it doesn’t matter how many square miles of land a seminary has men to draw from, landmass doesn’t give you seminarians, parishes do).

But I think it is pretty obvious this conversation is going in circles now, so bye.

 

[ServusHumilis]

…the FSSP is doing AMAZING work, it is doing a FANTASTIC job at forming many traditional and orthodox priests…

Agreed! I’m lucky to have an FSSP parish near me and there’s no doubt in my mind you’ll hear the best sung mass (and arguably homiles too) in town at that church! Also my diocesan parish was lucky recently to have a recently ordained FSSP priest visit and was subdeacon for a high mass. The young man was very learned and chanted the epistle beautifully.

 

[TimothyH]

Justification can be made for this issue, however I have seen a number of unnecessary (installing hot-tub like baptismal fonts) or illicit things (using leavened altar bread in a Roman Rite liturgy) done with the claim of wanting to be like the early Church. I have seen these things promoted by people who who want to get away from the “old-church” model that they view as “rigid.” Because of the damage I have seen caused by their vision for the Church, I am very cautious when a new idea is proposed and defended by a supposed desire to more closely model the early Church.

It reminds me a lot of people from the western world who join far eastern religions and praise them for how ancient they are when in reality they just want a religion which requires no faith and does not require that we take up our cross.

Traditionalists often complain that the Extraordinary Form of the Mass is fuller expression and more correctly signifies the reality of what is actually taking place at the Eucharistic sacrifice.

Exactly the same thing is true baptism by immersion. Baptism by immersion is a fuller sign of what is actually taking place. Actually tripple immersion is the fullest sign.

It is just like receiving the Eucharist under both species rather than just one. You can receive the Eucharist under just bread or just wine but receiving both species “reflects more fully the sacred realities that the Liturgy signifies.”

This is about a fuller expression of the realities which are taking place in these rites - traditionalism has always argued in favor of this and in that regard I agree with traditionalists.

This has nothing to do with unleavened bread or people who want to get away from a rigid Church. You seem to be stuck on those issues.

-Tim-

 

[babochka]

What is the alternative to “hot-tub-like baptismal fonts” for those being baptized by immersion in the Catholic Church?

What I’ve seen is that those catechumens or candidates who desire to be baptized by immersion before their Confirmation have to borrow baptismals from nearby Evangelical Protestant churches. Is that the alternative?

Well, there’s always the local river.

 

[Church_Militant]

I am a convert (2003) and didn’t know anything about
TLM until recently. I attended a TLM and found it
kind of long and boring, but, hey, at least you don’t run
into any pro-abortion,pro-gay marriage Catholics
there.

You don’t? How do you know?

Admit it, That is just a rash generalization in which you seem to assert that you know the hearts of all those there with you, which is ridiculous, isn’t it?

We are all sinners. St. Peter was. (See Luke 5:8) So what you’ve said is inaccurate at best.

The recent persecution of the FFI religious

I know something about this and you have just made a statement that is precisely what the FFI do not want. They have not been “persecuted”, They are a religious order, Franciscans, no less, and if you actually knew anything about Franciscans, then you’d know that they are more traditional than most non religious trads are and that they were never there to provide the TLM for others. They, just like every other diocese has to have permission to celebrate the EF and when so many trads started making their EF an issue, they withdrew it in obedience to Rome because that is not what Franciscans are all about. Ask Br. Jay on here; he can explain it more concisely than I can.

I do know one thing. One way to get yourself in hot water with Franciscans is to try to tell them to do anything from outside their community. They are obedient servants of the Church and telling people that they are being persecuted by the Holy See is unwise because no one…repeat no one, gets between Franciscans and their obedience to the Pope. It’s one of the things that St. Francis of Assisi made part of their rules that can never change. So making statements like you have here makes you no friend of the FFI. There is no “persecution”, they are faithful to their order’s rules and to Rome. Something that some trads have got all wrong. Most all of us could take a good lesson from the FFI and all the other Franciscans around us. Franciscan obedience and loyalty to the Pope is about as traditional as one can get.

prompted
me to begin researching how the Novus Ordo came
into being. I read from a lot of different sources
and most of the information is verifiable. It’s
shocking and frightening. Call them conspiracy
theories if you’d like.

Or hogwash from people who push an agenda and/or may not be in full communion with the Church. It doesn’t matter where the OF developed. I grew up under the Latin Mass and remember it well. Sadly, it meant little to me because I could never follow it, even with a missal in hand. Today my Latin is better, but the OF where I am is reverent and holy and always draws me closer to Our Blessed Lord Jesus Christ. The sins in the lives of others around me (if any) are not my business. They are literally above my pay grade and I refuse to be judgmental of people whom I maybe don’t know that well. God knows 'em. They are His and He knows how to help and deal with His children. I’m pretty sure he sometimes has His hands full with me. (See Luke 17:10)

As a result of my research, I have decided to
affiliate with a parish that has TLM

Your choice of course, but I suggest that you may be doing so for many of the wrong reasons and making assumptions about the folks around that are unfair and judgmental.

Sadly, you seem to be looking for a church that is a hotel or museum for saints and not the field hospital for sinners that Pope Francis has said we should be. Tradition is about humility and obedience, not what language your Mass is in.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Church_Militant]

What is the alternative to “hot-tub-like baptismal fonts” for those being baptized by immersion in the Catholic Church?

What I’ve seen is that those catechumens or candidates who desire to be baptized by immersion before their Confirmation have to borrow baptismals from nearby Evangelical Protestant churches. Is that the alternative?

Well…unless you want to start building all our churches where rivers run through them. Indoor plumbing is pretty handy… Besides there’s nothing sacramental about the baptismal font or whatever way the church uses to facilitate baptisms. The sacrament itself is what counts, right?

See the The Didache and see what the early church says about it.

 

[ProVobis]

Today my Latin is better,

That’s good but how did you manage that, if I may ask? Most simply want nothing to do with it at Mass. Buy then many of them don’t want anything to do with other than English either, so they experience a little problem when faced with a Spanish Mass or nothing.