The Garden of Eden

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What would the world+humanity be like if Adam and Eve were not tempted by Satan in Eden, and therefore “thrown out?” There would be no sinning, right?
 
If we were never tempted… that is an excellent question. Human nature tends toward sin on its own. As Hobbes said when asked if he believes in a devil who tempts us to evil, “I don’t think mankind needs the help.” (Not that Hobbes, Calvin and Hobbes. Come on, that’s a good theological source.) But that is because we are fallen in the first place, is it not? So, maybe we wouldn’t?
 
Pound_Coolish said:
If we were never tempted… that is an excellent question. Human nature tends toward sin on its own. As Hobbes said when asked if he believes in a devil who tempts us to evil, “I don’t think mankind needs the help.” (Not that Hobbes, Calvin and Hobbes. Come on, that’s a good theological source.) But that is because we are fallen in the first place, is it not? So, maybe we wouldn’t?
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Correct… we need no help from the Devil or anyone else for that matter…
Humans are Predisposed to do bad if not just Mischievous deeds.
 
I wonder the same thing from time to time.
Complete peace on earth.
Imagine that.
 
Pound_Coolish said:
If we were never tempted… that is an excellent question. Human nature tends toward sin on its own. As Hobbes said when asked if he believes in a devil who tempts us to evil, “I don’t think mankind needs the help.” (Not that Hobbes, Calvin and Hobbes. Come on, that’s a good theological source.) But that is because we are fallen in the first place, is it not? So, maybe we wouldn’t?
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Human nature tends toward sin only because it has been wounded by Original Sin. If this Original Sin had not occurred sin would still be possible because human beings would have free wills, but there would be no tendency or predisposition to sin, no weakness of the sort that makes sin virtually inevitable. The fact that Mary was preserved from Original Sin in part explains how she could remain personally sinless her entire life.

By the way I like Calvin and Hobbes for many reasons including that it treats such questions seriously, but the answers, or more often hints, that it gives to theological questions are rarely good ones.
 
Does this mean that if Adam and Eve were never tempted in the Garden there would have been no need for Jesus?
 
Tous_Logous said:
Does this mean that if Adam and Eve were never tempted in the Garden there would have been no need for Jesus?
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God became man specifically in order to die for our sins. If there had been no sins, there would have been no need for this divine redemptive sacrifice. That does not necessarily mean there would not have been an incarnation, just that any incarnation would not have happened for the same purpose as that for which it actually occurred.
 
Tous_Logous said:
What would the world+humanity be like if Adam and Eve were not tempted by Satan in Eden, and therefore “thrown out?” There would be no sinning, right?
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Theologians have maintained that Christ would be present in any case. I think A&E had to make a positive choice either way. Disobey God, eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, or opt for another tree, the Tree of Life which was Jesus Christ Himself, which we can all opt to partake in now via the Eucharist, our positive choice for communing with the Lord, sharing in His life. Unless and until a choice was made, either way, Adam & Eve were in a sort of neutral state, “walking with” God but not yet having come to recognize their need for Him, let alone to love Him.
 
I don’t think i’ll ever get my head around the idea that if o.s had never happened we would still be inclined to sin.
A&E had grace, justice and self mastery…so they would never have even thought about killing, stealing, lying. Their spirits were perfectly in tune with God.
Some how the angel satan disrupted this good relationship hence causing them to choose to go against God.

If they had never sinned, wouldn’t we all be in heaven now? That was the plan was it not, to live with God? But then would there have been any need for God to create an earth for his human creatures to live upon?
 
Phil_Marinus said:
Correct… we need no help from the Devil or anyone else for that matter…
Humans are Predisposed to do bad if not just Mischievous deeds.
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This is true, but makes me wonder why humans were even created like this in the first place?

Why would an omnipotent, all powerful, all knowing God design and create a ‘species’ that is literally ‘hard-wired’ to have sinful natures? Mankind was created BEFORE satans fall, I realize God knows the future, but strange to think he created man with this disability.
 
simpleas said:
I don’t think i’ll ever get my head around the idea that if o.s had never happened we would still be inclined to sin.
A&E had grace, justice and self mastery…so they would never have even thought about killing, stealing, lying. Their spirits were perfectly in tune with God.
Some how the angel satan disrupted this good relationship hence causing them to choose to go against God.

If they had never sinned, wouldn’t we all be in heaven now? That was the plan was it not, to live with God? But then would there have been any need for God to create an earth for his human creatures to live upon?
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No, we would not necessarily be in Heaven.

Heaven is eternal, it is the goal. Earth is time bound, and arguably exists for human life to take part in creation via the natural process (which does not occur in Heaven).

ICXC NIKA
 
mikekle said:
This is true, but makes me wonder why humans were even created like this in the first place?

**Why would an omnipotent, all powerful, all knowing God design and create a ‘species’ that is literally ‘hard-wired’ to have sinful natures? **Mankind was created BEFORE satans fall, I realize God knows the future, but strange to think he created man with this disability.
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If you believe in the Christian God, it could be as base as entertainment or experimentation.
 
Tous_Logous said:
What would the world+humanity be like if Adam and Eve were not tempted by Satan in Eden, and therefore “thrown out?” There would be no sinning, right?
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A very good question would be this. Why would God permitted the devil to tempt man and woman in the first place? The discussion between God and Adam referred to no description of the devil at all. Don’t you think that Adam and Eve should have known about this? It seems through what all God had given to Adam and Eve was not this more complete catechism that we have inherited now in the Church. It was if God allowed all of this to happen so as to give us this catechism especially through our own experiences. These experiences seemingly would involve sin in our lives. Perhaps this is why God created us much different than the angels because in man and woman is this possibility to repent and change unlike the angels who have sinned who cannot repent. I really do not think about what would have happened to Adam and Eve if they did not sinned since it seems they would have anyway. I see no possibility of them for instance of not sinning because I suspect this was not in the mind of God for them to specifically resist the devil. If for instance God did not want them to sin at all then God needs to up His ante in teaching them more this catechism. Since the foreknowledge of God knew they would sin it seems to me He had given to them only limited knowledge to start with. I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian whose Church Fathers would not give a high verdict of guilt to our first parents. The Eastern Church seemingly would agree that our first parent’s sin changed much but would not acknowledge a severe guilt towards them from God. Surprisingly the Eastern Saints have a much lower verdict towards their sin than what the Western Church Father’s had speculated about this. I tend to agree more with the Eastern view as I sense growing up now in the East that views God more as a merciful God. The sin of Adam and Eve in the opinion of many of the Church Fathers of the East did not deserve any kind of “wrath” from God since we are taught He is a merciful God. In fact the more we sin greatly the more God wants to help and heal us.
 
chimo said:
A very good question would be this. Why would God permitted the devil to tempt man and woman in the first place? The discussion between God and Adam referred to no description of the devil at all. Don’t you think that Adam and Eve should have known about this? It seems through what all God had given to Adam and Eve was not this more complete catechism that we have inherited now in the Church. It was if God allowed all of this to happen so as to give us this catechism especially through our own experiences. These experiences seemingly would involve sin in our lives. Perhaps this is why God created us much different than the angels because in man and woman is this possibility to repent and change unlike the angels who have sinned who cannot repent. I really do not think about what would have happened to Adam and Eve if they did not sinned since it seems they would have anyway. I see no possibility of them for instance of not sinning because I suspect this was not in the mind of God for them to specifically resist the devil. If for instance God did not want them to sin at all then God needs to up His ante in teaching them more this catechism. Since the foreknowledge of God knew they would sin it seems to me He had given to them only limited knowledge to start with. I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian whose Church Fathers would not give a high verdict of guilt to our first parents. The Eastern Church seemingly would agree that our first parent’s sin changed much but would not acknowledge a severe guilt towards them from God. Surprisingly the Eastern Saints have a much lower verdict towards their sin than what the Western Church Father’s had speculated about this. I tend to agree more with the Eastern view as I sense growing up now in the East that views God more as a merciful God. The sin of Adam and Eve in the opinion of many of the Church Fathers of the East did not deserve any kind of “wrath” from God since we are taught He is a merciful God. In fact the more we sin greatly the more God wants to help and heal us.
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It is impossible for us not to be tempted if we are genuinely free. Our power alone is a source of temptation even on a desert island!
 
oldcelt said:
If you believe in the Christian God, it could be as base as entertainment or experimentation.
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If this is true, then is really should make people wonder why we worship such a deity, as if our entire existence is simply for Gods entertainment or experimentation, and that results in a whole lot of human suffering along the way…whats the point? so at some point far into the future, God can create a better race of beings, based off the results of our lives? LOL
 
mikekle said:
If this is true, then is really should make people wonder why we worship such a deity, as if our entire existence is simply for Gods entertainment or experimentation, and that results in a whole lot of human suffering along the way…whats the point? so at some point far into the future, God can create a better race of beings, based off the results of our lives? LOL
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You should ask people who are into Scientism, since this is precisely the god they worship.
 
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