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Kliska
Guest
Thank you! Very interesting observations.
I haven’t been here long myself, but welcome!
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I haven’t been here long myself, but welcome!
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pablope
Guest
calledtocommunion.com/2009/07/ecclesial-deism/
The indefectibility of the Church is a gift from Christ to the Church by which she is preserved to the end of the age as the “institution of salvation.” She can neither perish from the world nor depart from “her teaching, her constitution and her liturgy.”39 The gift of indefectibility does not imply that the members of the Church, even members of the Magisterium, cannot sin or err. But it does entail that the Magisterium of the Church can never lose or corrupt any part of the revelation of Christ, which includes both matters theological and moral. This gift of indefectibility is essential to Christ’s purpose in establishing His Church as the means of continuing His saving work to all the nations and peoples of the world until the end of the age. Regarding this purpose, Pope Leo XIII wrote, “What did Christ the Lord achieve by the foundation of the Church; what did He wish? This: He wished to delegate to the Church the same office and the same mandate which He had Himself received from the Father in order to continue them.”40
The commission Christ gave to the Apostles in Matthew 28:19 did not end with the death of the last Apostle, because this commission was given not only to the Apostles, but to their successors and the whole Church. The task of taking the Gospel to all nations and the ends of the earth goes beyond what the Apostles could accomplish in their own lifetime. In the same way, the promises of Christ do not extend only to the Apostles, but to their successors and all in union with them. This understanding of Christ’s promise to the Church provided a basis of assurance for the Fathers that Christ would preserve and guide the Church through apostolic succession. The pattern revealed through Christ’s relation to the Father is the pattern that is to endure until Christ returns.
St. Clement of Rome (d. circa AD 100) wrote:
The apostles have been dispatched to us by the Lord Jesus Christ like the bearers of good-tidings. Jesus Christ was sent by God. Christ, therefore, comes from God, and the apostles from Christ; these two acts result fittingly from God’s will.41
St. Ignatius (d. 107 AD) wrote:
As therefore the Lord did nothing without the Father, being united to Him, neither by Himself nor by the apostles, so neither do ye anything without the bishop and presbyters. Neither endeavor that anything appear reasonable and proper to yourselves apart; but being come together into the same place, let there be one prayer, one supplication, one mind, one hope, in love and in joy undefiled.42
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wmscott
Guest
The below is from the Haydocks Catholic Bible Commentary. it has that old english flare to it that at times i like to read. I hope it is of value to you. haydock1859.tripod.com/id34.html
Ver. 18. Kago. And I say to thee, and tell thee why I before declared, (John i. 42.) that thou shouldst be called Peter, for thou art constituted the rock upon which, as a foundation, I will build my Church, and that so firmly, as not to suffer the gates (i.e. the powers) of hell to prevail against its foundation; because if they overturn its foundation, (i.e. thee and thy successors) they will overturn also the Church that rests upon it. Christ therefore here promises to Peter, that he and his successors should be to the end, as long as the Church should last, its supreme pastors and princes. (Tirinus) — In the Syriac tongue, which is that which Jesus Christ spoke, there is no difference of genders, as there is in Latin, between petra, a rock, and Petrus, Peter; hence, in the original language, the allusion was both more natural and more simple. (Bible de Vence) — Thou art Peter;[2] and upon this (i.e. upon thee, according to the literal and general exposition of the ancient Fathers) I will build my church. It is true St. Augustine, in one or two places, thus expounds these words, and upon this rock, (i.e. upon myself) or upon this rock, which Peter hath confessed: yet he owns that he had also given the other interpretation, by which Peter himself was the rock. Some Fathers have also expounded it, upon the faith, which Peter confessed; but then they take not faith, as separated from the person of Peter, but on Peter, as holding the true faith. No one questions but that Christ himself is the great foundation-stone, the chief corner-stone, as St. Paul tells the Ephesians; (Chap. ii, ver. 20.) but it is also certain, that all the apostles may be called foundation-stones of the Church, as represented Apocalypse xxi. 14. In the mean time, St. Peter (called therefore Cephas, a rock) was the first and chief foundation-stone among the apostles, on whom Christ promised to build his Church. (Witham) — Thou art Peter, &c. As St. Peter, by divine revelation, here made a solemn profession of his faith of the divinity of Christ, so in recompense of this faith and profession, our Lord here declares to him the dignity to which he is pleased to raise him: viz. that he, to whom he had already given the name of Peter, signifying a rock, (John i. 42.) should be a rock indeed, of invincible strength, for the support of the building of the church; in which building he should be next to Christ himself, the chief foundation-stone, in quality of chief pastor, ruler, and governor; and should have accordingly all fulness of ecclesiastical power, signified by the keys of the kingdom of heaven. — Upon this rock, &c. The words of Christ to Peter, spoken in the vulgar language of the Jews, which our Lord made use of, were the same as if he had said in English, Thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my church. So that, by the plain course of the words, Peter is here declared to be the rock, upon which the church was to be built; Christ himself being both the principal foundation and founder of the same. Where also note, that Christ by building his house, that is, his Church, upon a rock, has thereby secured it against all storms and floods, like the wise builder. (Matthew vii. 24, 25.) — The gates of hell, &c. That is, the powers of darkness, and whatever Satan can do, either by himself or his agents. For as the Church is here likened to a house, or fortress, built on a rock; so the adverse powers are likened to a contrary house or fortress, the gates of which, i.e. the whole strength, and all the efforts it can make, will never be able to prevail over the city or Church of Christ. By this promise we are fully assured, that neither idolatry, heresy, nor any pernicious error whatsoever shall at any time prevail over the Church of Christ. (Challoner) — The gates, in the Oriental style, signify the powers; thus, to this day, we designate the Ottoman or Turkish empire by the Ottoman port. The princes were wont to hold their courts at the gates of the city. (Bible de Vence)
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SoMissCatholic
Guest
The problem is that the Bible wasn’t written in “plain English.” Specifically, this passage is from the Gospel of Matthew, which was written in koine Greek. So we can’t attach a modern English meaning to the word “gates” and assume we know what it means. We have to look to how the word was used and understood at the time it was written.
catholicexchange.com/the-gates-of-hell-shall-not-prevail
So, while in modern English we may think of “gates” as purely a defensive structure, that is not necessarily what it meant in ancient Israel.
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Kliska
Guest
Just a quick summary;
So a literal view would be “Gates” as a defensive force, and the Gates here are the Gates of Hell/Hades. Gates would be a defensive idea, as a place surrounded with protective structure and they won’t stand up to the Church and/or Christ. Gates in context can also be the entrance to a stronghold and a place of importance to a city representing ideals
Also, time frame wise, in a literal sense at the end of time Hell/Hades is thrown in the lake of fire. Another literalistic view would be the gates of Hades not keeping out Jesus after He was crucified, but He entered in to free the OT righteous.
Here was a bit from Origen which was quoted:
So a literal view would be “Gates” as a defensive force, and the Gates here are the Gates of Hell/Hades. Gates would be a defensive idea, as a place surrounded with protective structure and they won’t stand up to the Church and/or Christ. Gates in context can also be the entrance to a stronghold and a place of importance to a city representing ideals
Also, time frame wise, in a literal sense at the end of time Hell/Hades is thrown in the lake of fire. Another literalistic view would be the gates of Hades not keeping out Jesus after He was crucified, but He entered in to free the OT righteous.
Here was a bit from Origen which was quoted:
So, he seems to think that every sin is a gate; therefore, every sin will fail in a sense. That would put this idea in the lives of every believer in an “everyday” sense, in our fight against sinful activity.
These two represent two categorically different view. The view that the people of God as the church are kept from teaching anything incorrect OR that it is a future understanding that in the end, Christ and His church reigns ultimately victorious.
Anyone else care to weigh in?
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wmscott
Guest
I have to ask, did you even read post 23
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Techno2000
Guest
From the Catholic point of view it just means that, in the end Satan will not be able to Destroy the Catholic Church.
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Kliska
Guest
Yes, I am trying to get newer posters caught up and summarize the different perspectives to see if anyone has any other perspectives to add.I have to ask, did you even read post 23
ETA, the idea in post 23 was already summed up, but here is the relevant bit from the excerpt.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
A gate is either an entrance or an exit and also a path. In this case its plural to mean “all” Gates thus all hades/hell city and in offense thus exiting, or better is offensive. The Church is also offensive and in a spiritual battle of good and evil. The Church “prevails” which indicates to defeat an opponent especially in a long or difficult contest which would ring true to Christ’s words. So its past, present and future, just as Jesus Christ/Church.
Isaiah 54:17 …no weapon forged against you will prevail.
Greek translates -4439 pýlē (a feminine noun) – a large door; an entrance-gate to a city or fortress; a door-gate. 4439 /pýlē (“a door-gate”) typically refers to the exit people go out, i.e. focusing on what proceeds out of it.
Gate is also used in Matthew 7:13 which indicates a path.
So hades is understood through Matthew as in the Nicene Creed, in this way the gates prevent communion with God=Heaven. So the existing evil is in conflict and it escalates…
Revelation- I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
If you cross reference Revelation,
biblehub.com/revelation/6-8.htm
Jesus Christ the Truth “prevails”
Valley of the shadow, we are in it. Psalms usage of Gate is interesting also. Also Revelation cross referenced from Jeremiah and again to Revelation…
Jeremiah 15:2 And if they ask you, ‘Where shall we go?’ tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: "‘Those destined for death, to death; those for the sword, to the sword; those for starvation, to starvation; those for captivity, to captivity.’
back to Revelation here…
Revelation 13:10 If any one is eager to lead others into captivity, he must himself go into captivity. If any one is bent on killing with the sword, he must himself be killed by the sword. Here is an opportunity for endurance, and for the exercise of faith, on the part of God’s Holy people.
Such is the faithful endurance of Gods Holy People!
Psalm 107:15-18 - Let them thank the LORD for his mercy, such wondrous deeds for the children of Adam. For he broke down the gates of bronze and snapped the bars of iron. Some fell sick from their wicked ways, afflicted because of their sins. They loathed all manner of food;
“they were at the gates of death.”
Isaiah 54:17 …no weapon forged against you will prevail.
Greek translates -4439 pýlē (a feminine noun) – a large door; an entrance-gate to a city or fortress; a door-gate. 4439 /pýlē (“a door-gate”) typically refers to the exit people go out, i.e. focusing on what proceeds out of it.
Gate is also used in Matthew 7:13 which indicates a path.
So hades is understood through Matthew as in the Nicene Creed, in this way the gates prevent communion with God=Heaven. So the existing evil is in conflict and it escalates…
Revelation- I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
If you cross reference Revelation,
biblehub.com/revelation/6-8.htm
Jesus Christ the Truth “prevails”
Valley of the shadow, we are in it. Psalms usage of Gate is interesting also. Also Revelation cross referenced from Jeremiah and again to Revelation…
Jeremiah 15:2 And if they ask you, ‘Where shall we go?’ tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: "‘Those destined for death, to death; those for the sword, to the sword; those for starvation, to starvation; those for captivity, to captivity.’
back to Revelation here…
Revelation 13:10 If any one is eager to lead others into captivity, he must himself go into captivity. If any one is bent on killing with the sword, he must himself be killed by the sword. Here is an opportunity for endurance, and for the exercise of faith, on the part of God’s Holy people.
Such is the faithful endurance of Gods Holy People!
Psalm 107:15-18 - Let them thank the LORD for his mercy, such wondrous deeds for the children of Adam. For he broke down the gates of bronze and snapped the bars of iron. Some fell sick from their wicked ways, afflicted because of their sins. They loathed all manner of food;
“they were at the gates of death.”
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Kliska
Guest
It’s interesting that you bring that up now, as I’ve also just found commentary underscoring the idea that the “Gates of Hell/Hades” would be death. This would fit very well, as Jesus is just about ready (in the context of timing) to show His mastery over the very Gates of Hell, if we could understand that to be death. So, literally death cannot and will not prevail, neither for Jesus nor His church, nor in the future when death is permanently defeated.
Further, it would allow all of us, as the church, to overcome death as well, by being baptized into Him, and His death. And underscores the teaching of Jesus descending after the crucifixion and “setting the captives free.”
Further, it would allow all of us, as the church, to overcome death as well, by being baptized into Him, and His death. And underscores the teaching of Jesus descending after the crucifixion and “setting the captives free.”
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Amo_a_Jesus
Guest
I’m going to put it very simple
For a Protestant does not really mean nothing Important, at the end Peter is not the rock or if he was, it was just a little rock, and Jesus never meant to Build His Church on Him… or where in the Bible you find the word POPE?
I don’t think I need to give you the Catholic explanation again…
For a Protestant does not really mean nothing Important, at the end Peter is not the rock or if he was, it was just a little rock, and Jesus never meant to Build His Church on Him… or where in the Bible you find the word POPE?
I don’t think I need to give you the Catholic explanation again…
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Kliska
Guest
I’m attempting to make sure that we are answering the questions as I’ve asked because the focus IS usually on the rock statements and the “fights” over the meaning there. I’m interested in the idea of the direct meaning of the Gates of Hell, prevailing, and “it.”
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GaryTaylor
Guest
All about playing an active role in your own salvation which extends to everyone else. Basically we are all in this together, so we are all responsible for each other in order to make “prevail” less dramatic. Thus together we can intercede to offset the magnitude of evil in both the physical and spiritual battle. Even though we know the final outcome.
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Amo_a_Jesus
Guest
Well my point is if your find a Argument of the “rock” for sure you will find it on the Gates…
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Techno2000
Guest
Think of " Gates" as huge jaws opening up and swallowing something .
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batman1973
Guest
My 2 pennies is this : I don’t think of the “Gates of Hell” as literal, rather, It’s all of the evil that Satan has at his disposal to stop the Church Militant. The rock, in my view, is none other than Jesus Christ, who is the head of the Church. He established His Church, and nothing Lucifer can do will destroy it. Sin may have caused divisions in the Church, but, never the less, the Church stands. Jesus said "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them.” (Matt. 18:20 KJV). Jesus promised that He would be with His followers. His promise: “It is the Lord who goes before you. He will be with you; he will not leave you or forsake you. Do not fear or be dismayed.” (Deut. 31:8 ESV) I would hope that the Body of Christ becomes one before His 2nd coming, but, I’m certain it will be one after.
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pocohombre
Guest
From what I have read it may simply mean that death can not stop nor separate us from the love of Christ, from His divine revelation of whom Christ is .The church will be built, that crucifying Jesus, and Peter ( and killing Christians for three hundred years) would not only not stop church growth, but accelerate it. Notice that from here after in Matthew it says, " from that time forth Jesus began to show how …he must be killed". This promise of “prevailing” was needed for the comfort of the apostles in facing the “death” of our Lord, and for the persecuted church that followed. Hades was not “Gehenna” (place of torment) but more “Sheol” (the place of the dead, both the righteous and wicked, before Calvary). Of course that is where Jesus went after His death, even Paradise, which was in Hades (Greek)/Sheol (Hebrew). Hell did not contain Him, which also fueled the church (hope and assuredness of His and our resurrection). The “gate” is also the principle truth that wages of sin is death, and only a perfect sacrifice could completely clean us enough to be fully united with a holy God. Calvary did away with that “gate” which kept Abraham there, and He would lead all the righteous out of Hades ( “He led captivity captive”). Like Paul says, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, that death sends us to a better place/person. That is why Ignatius couldn’t wait for his martyrdom, even boasted of looking forward to it. Now for all this to be true, in a positive way, one must first be changed by the gospel. One must receive the apostles message, even Peter’s, that being the “key” . It all flows beautifully. The divine revelation to Peter that Jesus is the Christ, our Savior, surer than death itself, and that this message is like a key, given to Peter (and all apostles/disciples) to let us into this promise , out of Hades and into His Kingdom. Amen.
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Isaiah45_9
Guest
We cannot separate these phrases from Cephas (Peter).
Think of how gates work. If you have a 1 acre property and you fence it, your gate will mark not only the entrance to your property but also will mark the territory for which the gate is for. Now say you expand your property to 10 acres. Now your gate will move to mark the expanded territory as yours.
If Hades prevails against the Church Christ built on Cephas. Then Hades will get to move its gate to the Church’s territory. What Christ declares is that Hades will not get to expand its territory at the expense of His Church. The Church will prevail.
“It” — is the Church built on Cephas.
Peace,
K
Kliska
Guest
Interesting take; so the gates can’t keep it out OR in. Jesus can enter and exit at will showing His power and dominion. And this would be connected to the quote from Origen mentioned upthread, that we inherit this immunity from spiritual death via confession of Jesus and faith on Him.
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Kliska
Guest
What then is your idea of what Hades is or represents? Sin, or death, persecution, something other?
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