The gates of hell shall not prevail against WHO?

[spockrates]

If you look at all the times 4073 is used in the NT, most if not all is of Jesus or large rocks like:
1Co 10:4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock <4073> that followed them, and that Rock <4073> was Christ.​

Peter was a vessel not the Rock which is Christ. Jesus built His church upon who He is and He used His disciples to build upon Him His church (which is all true believers no matter what church they go to - that is the true universal church).

Yes, I understand what you are saying, Doki! And I can see how it might be true that Christ, rather than Peter, is the Rock on which the Church is built.



Another argument made by some Protestants and Early Church Fathers also seems plausible: That argument is that the truth Peter spoke (the truth that Jesus is the Son of the Living God) is the Rock on which the Church is built. Interestingly, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states that all three are the Rocks on which the Church is built. However, the CCC states that the Rock of which Jesus spoke in Matthew, chapter 16 was Peter.

15"But what about you?" he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

(Matthew 16)

Me, I’m unsure of which Rock Jesus was speaking. If you are sure, please tell me the source of your confidence.

 

[Dokimas]

Yes, I understand what you are saying, Doki! And I can see how it might be true that Christ, rather than Peter, is the Rock on which the Church is built.



Another argument made by some Protestants and Early Church Fathers also seems plausible: That argument is that the truth Peter spoke (the truth that Jesus is the Son of the Living God) is the Rock on which the Church is built. Interestingly, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states that all three are the Rocks on which the Church is built. However, the CCC states that the Rock of which Jesus spoke in Matthew, chapter 16 was Peter.

15"But what about you?" he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

(Matthew 16)

Me, I’m unsure of which Rock Jesus was speaking. If you are sure, please tell me the source of your confidence.

Taking that one verse out of the whole NT and looking at it superficially, I understand that it seems Jesus is speaking about Peter as the foundation upon which the church will be built.​

Note that what Peter said was about Jesus so two of the three foundations in the catechism speaks of Jesus. Doesn’t make sense that Peter is strong enough to be part of a three ‘pillar’ foundation.​

Remember what Jesus told the disciples in John 14:6? He said He was the Way, the Truth and the Life. John called Jesus the Word of God in John 1. Jesus is the only Being strong enough to support His church.

 

[guanophore]

We are sorry you are having so much trouble understanding what “the gates of hell” mean in the passage in question. The posting below may help you understand what “the gates of hell” means. I posted another example but I guess you might have missed it.

The forces of evil will not overcome the Church
vbvbc.org/bible-verse/matthew16-18

I don’t think His Alone is wrong either. Indeed, Jesus promised that the Church would be led “into all Truth”, but equally, we are on the offensive against the domain of the evil one, and by evangelism and ministry, we crash the gates of hell.

 

[spockrates]

Taking that one verse out of the whole NT and looking at it superficially, I understand that it seems Jesus is speaking about Peter as the foundation upon which the church will be built.​

Note that what Peter said was about Jesus so two of the three foundations in the catechism speaks of Jesus. Doesn’t make sense that Peter is strong enough to be part of a three ‘pillar’ foundation.​

Remember what Jesus told the disciples in John 14:6? He said He was the Way, the Truth and the Life. John called Jesus the Word of God in John 1. Jesus is the only Being strong enough to support His church.

Yes, I understand what you are saying, Dokimas. I quite agree that Jesus, and the truth that He is the Son of God, are both foundations of the Church.

What I’m not sure I understand is why Peter could not also be a foundation of the Church the way Moses was a foundation of the Jewish religion. If you know why it is impossible for Peter to be a foundation (albeit a lesser one) of the Church, I’d appreciate any explanation you might offer.

 

[guanophore]

gurneyhalleck1:
“Look at the protestant reformation and you’ll indeed see the gates of hell prancing around like a bastardized river dance. Divorce and remarriage, contraception, homosexual “marriage” tolerance, turning a blind eye to cohabitation and an overly sexualized culture, apathy, vague spiritualism, and all the rest. There are thousands of denominations that can’t agree if left is left and right is right”

I like your statements especially: “bastardized river dance” and I am asking your permission to use that phrase when I debate again with the protestants about the gates of hell being unleashed by the reformation.

I wonder though…what the protestants will interpret the phrase “The gates of hell shall not prevail against the church” since the church is invisible and each denominations claimed to be based on the bible and yet cannot agree if left is left and right is right.

Any protestants here care to comment about “the gates of hell” interpretation?

Are you kidding? Why would ANYONE want to enter a discussion with you after you have made all these ignorant, insulting and prejudicial remarks? In insulting Protestants as a whole, you reveal gross bigotry and insult all those of us whe have been able to revert to the Church through the ministry of the HS in these ecclesial communities.

Any Protestant who came to CAF and made such rude comments about our faith would be banned. How distrespectful.

 

[spockrates]

Any protestants here care to comment about “the gates of hell” interpretation?

Are you kidding? Why would ANYONE want to enter a discussion with you after you have made all these ignorant, insulting and prejudicial remarks? In insulting Protestants as a whole, you reveal gross bigotry and insult all those of us whe have been able to revert to the Church through the ministry of the HS in these ecclesial communities.

Any Protestant who came to CAF and made such rude comments about our faith would be banned. How distrespectful.

Guano:

You imply that it’s harder for a Catholic to get kicked off the forum than a non-Catholic. Are you saying the forum rules do not apply equally to all?

 

[Javl]

Please tell us why you are so willing to beleive a teaching so obviously false that you will call true.

Have you ever listened to radio preachers? Have you ever watched TV “Evangelists”, etc.?
I have attended Protestant services, with friends, in various denominational Churches and I get the same message all the time. I don’t know if you’re Baptist, or not, or even fundamentalist, but they are famous for claiming that they alone have the full truth and blast not only Catholics but other Protestant denominations as well! Of course the most famous of all are the cults. But then they are not even Christian.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Guano:

You imply that it’s harder for a Catholic to get kicked off the forum than a non-Catholic. Are you saying the forum rules do not apply equally to all?

In answer, rules apply equally. If anyone Protestant, Catholic, Atheist, etc. breaks the rules he/she can be banished. No exception.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ricko]

I don’t think His Alone is wrong either. Indeed, Jesus promised that the Church would be led “into all Truth”, but equally, we are on the offensive against the domain of the evil one, and by evangelism and ministry, we crash the gates of hell.

In the contex of which “the gates of hell” is used in Matthew’s verse however it means the forces of evil will not prevail against the Church.

 

[guanophore]

“You are the rock. And on this rock I will build my Church.” Did the Lord say that the rock was the confession Peter made or on Peter himself? It’s fairly apparent given the syntax of the sentence who the rock was, Peter. And upon this rock (the aforementioned person of Peter) I will build my Church. It may sound convenient to make the confession the rock because that would destroy the idea of the Church’s authority and we could all feel good with this fill-in-the-blank sola scriptura approach. The thing is, Peter was the rock, not the confession alone. The context tells us that, the majority of the Fathers tell us that, logic tells us that, and what follows about the binding and loosing gives clarity to it as well. Had Christ wanted to have a loosey goosey Church not built on the authority given to its leader, Peter, He could have simply said, “…for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but my Father in Heaven. And it is upon this truth that I will build my Church” or words with more clarity.

Both of them are rocks, Gurney, and so is Christ, who is the cornerstone. The statement Peter made being a “rocky” statement does not take away from the duties Christ assigned to Him to feed and care for the flock.

 

[Hisalone]

Guano:

You imply that it’s harder for a Catholic to get kicked off the forum than a non-Catholic. Are you saying the forum rules do not apply equally to all?

I took Guano’s post as a defense of civility. David 40 came on a little too strong and Guano was suggesting that he ease up.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

I have attended Protestant services, with friends, in various denominational Churches and I get the same message all the time. I don’t know if you’re Baptist, or not, or even fundamentalist, but they are famous for claiming that they alone have the full truth and blast not only Catholics but other Protestant denominations as well! Of course the most famous of all are the cults. But then they are not even Christian.

I’m Protestant. Although for some years I was active in The Catholic Church.

I’m the son, grandson and nephew of Protestant ministers.

I’ve never once heard The Catholic Church mentioned in a sermon, except in my Catholic Church where it was mentioned almost every week, in some way or the other.

My father (again, a Protestant minister) welcomed and encouraged my visit and later weekly worship in The Catholic Church. And when I began study there, he welcomed that. And when I had questions about Catholicism, in spite of his having a doctorate degree in church history and a masters in theology, he encouraged me to get Catholic info from Catholics. And when I (THE PASTOR’S SON) told him I was serious considering converting to Catholicism, he welcomed that and promised he and all the family would support me. He did the same to my sister, who completed RCIA classes (but never converted).

Here is my position AS A PROTESTANT about The Catholic Church. If you can say the same or more about my denomination (The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod) then we are equals or you are more open to my denomination than I am to yours. If you will say less about my denomination, then you are more “anti” than I am. “I regard The Catholic Church as a valid, good denomination that I hold in very high esteem. I regard her ministers, ministries and Sacraments as all fully valid. I regard all the believers in her to be my full, unseparated and in every sense equal brothers and sisters in Christ with whom I will spend eternity. I regard nothing it officially teaches as heretical in the sense of being contrary to Scritpure or Tradition, and I perhaps agree with 95% of it. I pray daily for God’s richest blessing to The Catholic Church - her ministers, ministries and Holy Father.” Now, if you will say as much or more about my denomination - cool. Otherwise…

That said, I’ve attended numerous worship services in a large Baptist church, a mega nondenom, and an Assembly of God Church. I don’t recall EVER hearing about ANY denomination at ANY of them - including their own. Positive or negative. Ever. When I was a part of a high school homeschool group, I did that via a large Baptist school - dominated by “evangelical” types. I was active in The Catholic Church at the time and they flooded me with questions about Catholicism - always very respectful. When they asked about the Rosary, I brought my in the next week - and went through the whole thing. They naturally had the impression of the focus on Mary but otherwise regarded it as pretty cool - and it started a whole conversation about how the practice (slightly modified) could be a blessing for Protestants.

I guess my experience is just different than yours…

BTW, all my years in Catholicism, I rarely heard a negative thing about Protestantism either. Most of the negative things about Protestantism than I’ve encountered have been at this website.

.

 

[guanophore]

Taking that one verse out of the whole NT and looking at it superficially, I understand that it seems Jesus is speaking about Peter as the foundation upon which the church will be built.

I think we all would agree that this is not the proper way to read the Scriptures. On the contrary, Jesus build His church, and all of them recognized the primacy of Peter, and his special gifts and mission. The Church, with Peter as the chief Apostle, wrote the Scripture. The Scripture reflects what the Church believed and practiced.​

• Note that what Peter said was about Jesus so two of the three foundations in the catechism speaks of Jesus. Doesn’t make sense that Peter is strong enough to be part of a three ‘pillar’ foundation.

The promise of Christ to build His church upon people is not thwarted by peoples lack of strength. Jesus does not choose the wise and the strong, but the faithful,and the available. His strength is made perfect in our weakness, and this is what happened with Peter. The ways of God seem like foolishness to men, so of course “it does not make sense” from a secular perspective.​

• Remember what Jesus told the disciples in John 14:6? He said He was the Way, the Truth and the Life. John called Jesus the Word of God in John 1. Jesus is the only Being strong enough to support His church.

Yes, of course. Did you think that the fact he built it upon humans meant that He did not intend to hold it up?

 

[Dokimas]

I think we all would agree that this is not the proper way to read the Scriptures. On the contrary, Jesus build His church, and all of them recognized the primacy of Peter, and his special gifts and mission. The Church, with Peter as the chief Apostle, wrote the Scripture. The Scripture reflects what the Church believed and practiced.​

The promise of Christ to build His church upon people is not thwarted by peoples lack of strength. Jesus does not choose the wise and the strong, but the faithful,and the available. His strength is made perfect in our weakness, and this is what happened with Peter. The ways of God seem like foolishness to men, so of course “it does not make sense” from a secular perspective.​

Yes, of course. Did you think that the fact he built it upon humans meant that He did not intend to hold it up?

Well said. Guess I won’t get it til Heaven. There I get to put aside my short-sightedness and will understand all Truth. I can’t wait.

 

[Javl]

I’m Protestant. Although for some years I was active in The Catholic Church.

I’m the son, grandson and nephew of Protestant ministers.

I’ve never once heard The Catholic Church mentioned in a sermon, except in my Catholic Church where it was mentioned almost every week, in some way or the other.

My father (again, a Protestant minister) welcomed and encouraged my visit and later weekly worship in The Catholic Church. And when I began study there, he welcomed that. And when I had questions about Catholicism, in spite of his having a doctorate degree in church history and a masters in theology, he encouraged me to get Catholic info from Catholics. And when I (THE PASTOR’S SON) told him I was serious considering converting to Catholicism, he welcomed that and promised he and all the family would support me. He did the same to my sister, who completed RCIA classes (but never converted).

Here is my position AS A PROTESTANT about The Catholic Church. If you can say the same or more about my denomination (The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod) then we are equals or you are more open to my denomination than I am to yours. If you will say less about my denomination, then you are more “anti” than I am. “I regard The Catholic Church as a valid, good denomination that I hold in very high esteem. I regard her ministers, ministries and Sacraments as all fully valid. I regard all the believers in her to be my full, unseparated and in every sense equal brothers and sisters in Christ with whom I will spend eternity. I regard nothing it officially teaches as heretical in the sense of being contrary to Scritpure or Tradition, and I perhaps agree with 95% of it. I pray daily for God’s richest blessing to The Catholic Church - her ministers, ministries and Holy Father.” Now, if you will say as much or more about my denomination - cool. Otherwise…

That said, I’ve attended numerous worship services in a large Baptist church, a mega nondenom, and an Assembly of God Church. I don’t recall EVER hearing about ANY denomination at ANY of them - including their own. Positive or negative. Ever. When I was a part of a high school homeschool group, I did that via a large Baptist school - dominated by “evangelical” types. I was active in The Catholic Church at the time and they flooded me with questions about Catholicism - always very respectful. When they asked about the Rosary, I brought my in the next week - and went through the whole thing. They naturally had the impression of the focus on Mary but otherwise regarded it as pretty cool - and it started a whole conversation about how the practice (slightly modified) could be a blessing for Protestants.

I guess my experience is just different than yours…

BTW, all my years in Catholicism, I rarely heard a negative thing about Protestantism either. Most of the negative things about Protestantism than I’ve encountered have been at this website.

Josiah: I wish I could say the same as you. I have always heard Protestants called “our separated bretheren” in every Catholic Church I have been in. Although I have heard negative remarks about Protestantism from parishoners, I always try to correct them.( I am not looking for medals ). But I assure you, as I have said I have heard many negative things said about not only Catholicism but Othodox as well in quite a few of the Protestant services I have attended. I must say, though, that the High Church Anglicans, Lutherans, and Methodists, have never said anything against the CC. ( My wife is Methodist and her pastor is a very dear friend. There is also an Anglican Bishop whom I consider a friend ). I agree with you, though, about negativity on these forums. You with Catholicism and I with Protestantism. As I’ve said in another post, we go at each other with AK-47s and Elephant guns. Happy Hunting. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Libertarian_FL]

There is one reflection I have on the passage attributed to Christ and forms the foundation of the Roman Catholic Church and Peter the first Pope. What IF the Matthew when that Gospel was made added or misquoted Christ to support the consolidation of the authority in the Early Church? It may have been for what he saw a noble reason say countering the Gnostic movement but still didn’t state this accurately. Or flatly just added it.

Well we can’t be sure with no gospel actually written by Jesus.

 

[spockrates]

In answer, rules apply equally. If anyone Protestant, Catholic, Atheist, etc. breaks the rules he/she can be banished. No exception.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Yet, Guano appears to think differently, and he has been a member longer than you. How do you know for certain what you say is true?

 

[guanophore]

There is one reflection I have on the passage attributed to Christ and forms the foundation of the Roman Catholic Church and Peter the first Pope. What IF the Matthew when that Gospel was made added or misquoted Christ to support the consolidation of the authority in the Early Church? It may have been for what he saw a noble reason say countering the Gnostic movement but still didn’t state this accurately. Or flatly just added it.

Well we can’t be sure with no gospel actually written by Jesus.

This is a just question. However, the Catholic Church is not a “bible based” church as they are commonly created today among our separated brethren. the Catholic Church was alive and well, functioning as Jesus set it up, for decades prior to the writing of any of the gospels. What is written there is not the Source of our faith, but the reflection of it. The Church was founded by Christ, not by the writing of it. Does that make sense?

We understand it the way we do because we read what is written from the perspective of what the Apostles believed and taught.

 

[spockrates]

I took Guano’s post as a defense of civility. David 40 came on a little too strong and Guano was suggesting that he ease up.

No problem, His! Not criticizing anyone; just wondering about the equity of the rules of the forum.

 

[Javl]

Yet, Guano appears to think differently, and he has been a member longer than you. How do you know for certain what you say is true?

Ask any forum moderator, or the forum director.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem.