The Gay Debate: The Bible and Homosexuality

[FaithBuild18]

I think that a generation or two down the road, our belief that the practice of homosexuality is inherently immoral will be widely regarded as “hateful” (and therefore lead to charges of hate speech). To be sure, the Catholic view is already considered “hateful” in small circles (liberals, Hollywood, etc.), but will turn into something more. All we need to do is look to our neighbor up north (Canada’s hate speech laws). From there, I think it will ultimately lead to the Bible being labeled as “hateful propaganda…”

Maranatha!

[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 16:22[/BIBLEDRB]

This is indeed the consequence of liberal ideology. Increasingly left political views will always lead to atheism.

 

[Gb2G]

I think that a generation or two down the road, our belief that the practice of homosexuality is inherently immoral will be widely regarded as “hateful” (and therefore lead to charges of hate speech). To be sure, the Catholic view is already considered “hateful” in small circles (liberals, Hollywood, etc.), but will turn into something more. All we need to do is look to our neighbor up north (Canada’s hate speech laws). From there, I think it will ultimately lead to the Bible being labeled as “hateful propaganda…”

Maranatha!

[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 16:22[/BIBLEDRB]

Very thought provoking. You may be right, except for the Bible being labeled as “hateful propaganda”. Of course there are some who would say that now. And that religion is responsible for so much bloodshed in the world.

Christians have come a long way from when it was said “look how they love one
another” .

There’s a lot to be said for Defenders of the Faith, keeping doctrine pure, like antibodies in
the body that search out and destroy invading bacteria, keeping the body healthy. There is also a thing called auto immune disease when the body turns on itself.

People have been saying our Lord is coming soon ever since the apostles time. Only the Father knows. But I wonder if it was said in the South when the slaves were freed. When women won the right to vote. When interracial couples were allowed to marry. I’m sure there were people who said the world was going to hell in a handbasket or whatever that phrase is
.
It will happen again when there is a constitutional ammendment mandating marriage equality.
And like our African American brothers and sisters sometimes say, they have to be twice as smart and twice as successful to be considered equal by whites. So in our gay community , if they are twice as holy and their marriages last longer and their children are twice as well adjusted as straight couples and people say look how loving and giving those gay people are
then decades from now the Church will bless those unions and the Holy Father will apologize for discriminations and misunderstandings of the past.

Please know I am not scolding or judging just offering an alternate ending. I know I could be wrong but I hope not.

 

[karoleck]

Very thought provoking. You may be right, except for the Bible being labeled as “hateful propaganda”. Of course there are some who would say that now. And that religion is responsible for so much bloodshed in the world.

Christians have come a long way from when it was said “look how they love one
another” .

There’s a lot to be said for Defenders of the Faith, keeping doctrine pure, like antibodies in
the body that search out and destroy invading bacteria, keeping the body healthy. There is also a thing called auto immune disease when the body turns on itself.

People have been saying our Lord is coming soon ever since the apostles time. Only the Father knows. But I wonder if it was said in the South when the slaves were freed. When women won the right to vote. When interracial couples were allowed to marry. I’m sure there were people who said the world was going to hell in a handbasket or whatever that phrase is
.
It will happen again when there is a constitutional ammendment mandating marriage equality.
And like our African American brothers and sisters sometimes say, they have to be twice as smart and twice as successful to be considered equal by whites. So in our gay community , if they are twice as holy and their marriages last longer and their children are twice as well adjusted as straight couples and people say look how loving and giving those gay people are
then decades from now the Church will bless those unions and the Holy Father will apologize for discriminations and misunderstandings of the past.

Please know I am not scolding or judging just offering an alternate ending. I know I could be wrong but I hope not.

My dear friend,I hope that you do not mind me giving you my an overall opinion of your postings so far;rather than replying to each statement that you have bravely or foolishly offered!

You never replied to Post No.9 of Newbie 2–and I quote "actually he(Mathew Viner) is an advocate of homosexual “marriage”.My question to you is—is that fact?

Secondly, in your reply to my posting you replied that you prefer the Catholic Answers Forums to say someone outside it such as Redeeming The Rainbow by Dr.Lively.My question to you is --am I missing something, as YOU have based this thread on a one hour video,away from the Catholic Answers Forum!My observation is that you are not being very consistant!!:shrugerhaps this link to Peter Kreeft–**Moral Theology and Homosexuality **might meet to your approval ,as a catholic reference point ?

peterkreeft.com/audio/11_moral-theology.htm

In post 8 you stated “My pro marriage equality stance is based on social justice”.

Oh really?Justice means to give every person what is their due. The first principle of justice is on the vertical plain–to give God what is His due;The Second Person of The Blessed Trinity;The Word Made Flesh,Jesus Christ said "If you love me keep my Commandments.“The Catechism of The Catholic Church gives us guidelines and spells out what God Commandments are;in 2357----“Basing itself on Sacred Scripture,which presents acts as acts of grave depravity,(Gen 19:1-29,Rom1:24-27;1 Cor 6:10;Tim 1:10)
tradition has always declared that"HOMOSEXUAL ACTS ARE INTRINSICALLY DISORDED”(CDF,Persona humana 8),They are contrary to the natural law;they close the sexual act to the gift of life.They do not proceed from genuine affective and sexual complementary.Under NO circumstances can they be approved”
So I shown on the vertical plain that God"s Justice does not support an acted out same sexual attraction lifestyle of you seem to prepose.Now ,as for your social justice arguement; the Vatican Council in The Church In The Modern World gives us Catholics(I am presuming that you believe all that the Catholic Church believes and teaches) in 41—"In virtue of the Gosepel entrusted to it the Church proclaims the rights of man:she acknowledges and holds in high esteem the dynamic approach of today which ii fostering these rights all over the world.But this approach needs to be animated by the spirit of the Gospel and preserved from all traces of false autonomy.For there is a temptation to feel that our personal rights are fully maintained only when we are exempt from every restriction of divine law.But this is the way leading to the extinction of human dignity,not its preservation.
So my friend in Christ,your personal quest to promote a same sex union as a “marriage” is doomed to fall on it’s head.I trust that you will promote this christian Gospel premise “cease to do evil and learn to do good”!

St.Michael The ArchAngel,protect us from the powers of evil.Amen.

 

[Gb2G]

My question seems to be off thread but it ties in to what I am trying to say.

I sincerely ask—If Christ walked the earth today would he find His Church (the hierarchy) today to be what He intended or to be more like the scribes and pharasees of when He first came.
He didn’t like their putting stumbling blocks in the paths of the people while they sat in self righteous glory and power???

 

[Equites_Christi]

So in our gay community , if they are twice as holy and their marriages last longer and their children are twice as well adjusted as straight couples and people say look how loving and giving those gay people are
then decades from now the Church will bless those unions and the Holy Father will apologize for discriminations and misunderstandings of the past.

Please know I am not scolding or judging just offering an alternate ending. I know I could be wrong but I hope not.

I don’t want to offend you, firstly because I am called to charity but also because you are very kind and have a good heart, but this statement made me sick and I will explain why.

Church teachings, as it goes, are based on Truth. Now this Truth, is not changing. The Church declares homosexual activity (homosexual unions definitely fall under this) to be sinful.

To suggest that the Church may change its teaching on homosexual unions because of their outcomes is to suggest that the Church does not base its teachings on divine Truth, which does not change, but rather she makes up rules for convenience. And that is really disgusting.

 

[stewstew03]

My question seems to be off thread but it ties in to what I am trying to say.

I sincerely ask—If Christ walked the earth today would he find His Church (the hierarchy) today to be what He intended or to be more like the scribes and pharasees of when He first came.
He didn’t like their putting stumbling blocks in the paths of the people while they sat in self righteous glory and power???

More like the scribes and pharisees? In what way? Are you advancing an argument that the Church is legalistic?

 

[white_sheep]

There is not now, nor has there ever been, any real debate on the matter. It’s pretty clear.

 

[Dymphna82]

And like our African American brothers and sisters sometimes say, they have to be twice as smart and twice as successful to be considered equal by whites. So in our gay community , if they are twice as holy and their marriages last longer and their children are twice as well adjusted as straight couples and people say look how loving and giving those gay people are
then decades from now the Church will bless those unions and the Holy Father will apologize for discriminations and misunderstandings of the past.

Are you comparing being gay to being African American?

 

[karoleck]

My question seems to be off thread but it ties in to what I am trying to say.

I sincerely ask—If Christ walked the earth today would he find His Church (the hierarchy) today to be what He intended or to be more like the scribes and pharasees of when He first came.
He didn’t like their putting stumbling blocks in the paths of the people while they sat in self righteous glory and power???

I can see your erroneous reasoning here and hence your “logical” conclusion.

In reply to your remarks,firstly Christ and His Church are united-He is The Head,we are the body(mystical) which consists of the saints in Heaven,the suffering souls in Purgatory and the Church Militant(those baptised,here on earth).

May I remind you that when Saul(later St.Paul) was persecuting the christians,Christ asked him the question “Why are you persecuting Me?”; So Christ and The Church are one .I am certain that you would agree that Christ is Holiness,Perfection and Love,Mercy etc.Now His Church includes all the members (as The Vatican Council reminded Catholics -“you are the Church”.There are different functions,not only in essence, but also in degree, The Ministerial Priesthood(which includes Bishops,Priest & Deacons) and the Common priesthood of all the faithful.Certainly there is always going to be weak and even at times sinful members–whether they be amongst the hierarchy or amongst us lay persons.The Church is perfect in Christ but weak in it’s members–hence the need to become perfect “Be ye perfect,as your Heavenly Father is perfect”!

You are correct in the fact that Jesus never " liked their putting stumbing blocks etc" however, Jesus who is present now here within The Catholic Church; uses this Institution to teach us what we need to do to save our moral souls.You and me are not appointed to judge anyone; but we have to obey our informed conscience and be guided by what The Catholic Church believes and teaches.

We do not need to ask the question “what would Jesus find now?”;as He IS present here and now.The Holy Father has the power to proclaim on behalf of Christ ,what we need to believe(Christ gave him the Keys of the Kingdom through St.Peter The Rock).Just recently,He addressed the world and particularly the USA , warning catholics to oppose the push for “same sex marriage” with the risk of loosing their religious freedoms ,if they do not become active politically!!

 

[stewstew03]

Are you comparing being gay to being African American?

Those who support SSM want to advance the idea that marriage is a “civil right” (see, e.g., Loving v Virginia). The unintended consequence is that once that argument is accepted, you cannot deny polyamorous/polygamous marriages, bestiality, etc. It may seem crude now – because SSM proponents will say they want to draw the line at two (and only two) consenting adults – but if it becomes a “civil right” it will inevitably lead to anyone can marry anyone or anything he or she chooses.

 

[karoleck]

Those who support SSM want to advance the idea that marriage is a “civil right” (see, e.g., Loving v Virginia). The unintended consequence is that once that argument is accepted, you cannot deny polyamorous/polygamous marriages, bestiality, etc. It may seem crude now – because SSM proponents will say they want to draw the line at two (and only two) consenting adults – but if it becomes a “civil right” it will inevitably lead to anyone can marry anyone or anything he or she chooses.

You are so right here:thumbsup:

 

[Mimi]

I have become interested in this topic esp. since learning of a relative who is an ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church of America) pastor. They are well known as the liberal branch of the Lutheran church and ELCA is losing many bc of their preaching on this.
They allow female pastors, too.

I read an article by Vines today:[The Bible Backs Same Sex Marriage …](The Bible Backs Same Sex Marriage …)

Vines (and others who distort what Jesus and his disciples taught) are engaging in “eisegesis”, that is, their own (fallible) interpretation of scripture. This is what happens when you are disconnected from the historical Church (Catholic and apostolic).

I thank Karoleck for the insightful commentary and re-directing the dialogue back to What the Church Teaches.

This is more of what we parishioners need to see coming from the pulpit, as well as some handouts at Mass. Yes, we are called to love all, no matter what their “lifestyle choice”, but the modernist definition of Love is “tolerance for all - and anything goes”.

I would like to see a re-working of The Four Loves by C. S. Lewis written in modern language. It is not a lengthy work, but I find it hard to comprehend, even though I understand the basic definitions. [The Four Loves](The Four Loves)

Originally Posted by stewstew03
Those who support SSM want to advance the idea that marriage is a “civil right” (see, e.g., Loving v Virginia). The unintended consequence is that once that argument is accepted, you cannot deny polyamorous/polygamous marriages, bestiality, etc. It may seem crude now – because SSM proponents will say they want to draw the line at two (and only two) consenting adults – but if it becomes a “civil right” it will inevitably lead to anyone can marry anyone or anything he or she chooses.

Right.
OR: I could marry my nephew in order to keep the family fortune from going to anyone else. Let’s say he is the last in line and our family has built up a considerable fortune. We both agree that the arrangement will not entail any ‘conjugal acts’. What’s to stop us from contracting a marriage arrangement for this purpose (assuming we both agree to the terms)?

Of course, I would never entertain such a thing, being a Catholic.
I read where a woman married a building in England bc she “loved it so much”!

I only hope and pray it is not too late to wake ppl up in order to change the course of our societal entropy!

Praise and glory to Jesus Christ and Peace,
Mimi

 

[Milasol]

“For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error” (Rom. 1:26–27).

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor. 6:9–10).

“Now we know that the law is good, if any one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, immoral persons, sodomites, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine” (1 Tim. 1:8–10).

“Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire” (Jude 7).

But God’s displeasure with acting out on homosexuality is depicted as early as Genesis 19 in the Old Testament. Also see Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.

I think we would be lying if these left any room for misinterpretation.

There are many other verses pertaining to homosexuality. Anyone trying to tell you these can be interpreted as the act of homosexuality is not wrong is only trying to fool you.

The Church is also pretty clear on this.

 

[Catholic13]

“For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error” (Rom. 1:26–27).

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor. 6:9–10).

“Now we know that the law is good, if any one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, immoral persons, sodomites, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine” (1 Tim. 1:8–10).

“Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire” (Jude 7).

But God’s displeasure with acting out on homosexuality is depicted as early as Genesis 19 in the Old Testament. Also see Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13.

I think we would be lying if these left any room for misinterpretation.

There are many other verses pertaining to homosexuality. Anyone trying to tell you these can be interpreted as the act of homosexuality is not wrong is only trying to fool you.

The Church is also pretty clear on this.

 

[Catholic13]

Hello everyone, I would be interested in thoughts on the You Tube video The Gay Debate: The Bible and Homosexuality by Matthew Viner. It is about an hour long but well worth the time.

Galatians 1:8 ►

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

 

[Mystophilus]

Hello everyone, I would be interested in thoughts on the You Tube video The Gay Debate: The Bible and Homosexuality by Matthew Viner. It is about an hour long but well worth the time.

I have no problem at all with gay marriage, but Matthew Vines’ representation of the text is deeply flawed: according to Paul, and thus according to centuries of theologians, homosexuality is simply wrong.

 

[sirach2v4]

I’m starting to feel like we need to have just one thread to cover everything homosexual, since the topic seems to be everywhere now. :banghead:

My perspective is…God is against it and the Church is against it, so I’m against it. Full stop. There’s always going to be non-Christians, Protestants, and wayward Catholics with their own interpretation of the Bible. If I can’t trust the Church, then I’m certainly not going to rely on anybody else to tell me what the Bible’s truth is.

It would be sweet for me to take the Bible and interpret things my way and to my advantage, but that’s not how it works.

When you read about scripture study you read that each generation needs to take a new look at scripture and to apply it to themselves. That “new look” has to take science into account, for the Church repeatedly says that truth is not in conflict with science.

These repeated discussions of homosexuality are often “looking through the wrong end of the telescope” – which is to say, for one thing, that although the moral judgment of homosexuality may not change, perhaps popular attitudes towards it must change.

For all that any homosexual knows, he/she did not choose to have that sexual orientation and many have had deep religious experiences praying that God would take it away from them – which has not happened.

Perhaps we need another thread on the related topic, how should WE change our attitudes towards homosexuals, knowing that they are created in the image and likeness of God, and carry a “very heavy burden” as Pope Francis has stated? How strongly should we remind ourselves of our Savior’s command not to judge others?

The title of the new thread should be, “The Bible and Homosexuality: Not judging others”

A second related thread should be about st Paul’s admonition that we are to help carry other persons’ burdens? Let’s see if there is anything else to do beside reminding them that the Bible condemns homosexuality?

 

[Catholic13]

The title of the new thread should be, "The Bible and Homosexuality: Not judging others"
QUOTE]

When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.

 

[sirach2v4]

sirach2v4;12099945:

The title of the new thread should be, "The Bible and Homosexuality: Not judging others"

QUOTE]

When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.

Yes, but is that all you’re going to say? Is it not a sin of omission to not help support that person’s “burden” that Pope Francis refers to? How do you delicately warn them or speak out to them, without pushing them to suicide, for example?

We surely are entering an era where people are beginning to think that there’s “nothing wrong” with the practice of homosexuality. So, it might be essential to teach young people about it, but you somehow have to also teach them not to bully or oppress someone who is in sin.

It is hypocritical to focus only on homosexuals, when there are so many fornicators and adulterers and thieves and coveters, people who skip Mass on Sunday etc. in our world. It’s hard enough to learn the aspects of our faith, itself, not to mention the whole responsibility to evangelize, etc.

 

[Catholic13]

Catholic13;12100068:

Yes, but is that all you’re going to say? Is it not a sin of omission to not help support that person’s “burden” that Pope Francis refers to? How do you delicately warn them or speak out to them, without pushing them to suicide, for example?

We surely are entering an era where people are beginning to think that there’s “nothing wrong” with the practice of homosexuality. So, it might be essential to teach young people about it, but you somehow have to also teach them not to bully or oppress someone who is in sin.

It is hypocritical to focus only on homosexuals, when there are so many fornicators and adulterers and thieves and coveters, people who skip Mass on Sunday etc. in our world. It’s hard enough to learn the aspects of our faith, itself, not to mention the whole responsibility to evangelize, etc.

So Catholics **shouldn’t **practice their faith for fear that homosexuals might get their feelings hurt?

We focus on homosexuals because they are the only ones asking for extra rights. Fornicators, adulterers and thieves aren’t asking for additional rights.