The Generational Divide

[semper_catholicus]

many Millennials express a great desire for more orthodox liturgy and Tridentine Mass.

I haven’t noticed anything of the sort,

Others have. It’s all about personal experience.

 

[anon10271182]

Yes. “The imminent demise of the TLM” is delusional thinking. Perhaps wishful thinking, for some?

 

[anon10271182]

In some dioceses it’s obvious that the bishops want to isolate and marginalize traditional Catholics. They make it as difficult as possible for those parishes to grow, then say that the small size is proof that nobody wants the TLM

 

[babochka]

Now I don’t know about other parishes but at mine many of the kids who grew up with the EF stick around. Now obviously we have attrition. Some kids started going to the OF with their new spouses. But they can be counted on one hand.

If they’re in the same area, yes. The traditional parish is home. It is where their friends and family are. But what happens when college or a job takes them to another area, one without a convenient EF Mass and without a parish that is full of such strong community bonds? Chances are, they’ll find a local parish to attend and eventually lose the strong connection to the traditionalist movement. They might miss the Mass or miss the community, but their children won’t. This has been the experience of Byzantine Catholics in this country when the children and grandchildren of immigrants moved away from places where our parishes are abundant. It is just a practical reality.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Yes, thank you. I’m sure I don’t live up to it as much as the judicial candidate!

 

[redbetta]

That is awesome.

 

[AndrewAxland]

Chances are, they’ll find a local parish to attend and eventually lose the strong connection to the traditionalist movement. They might miss the Mass or miss the community, but their children won’t. This has been the experience of Byzantine Catholics in this country when the children and grandchildren of immigrants moved away from places where our parishes are abundant. It is just a practical reality.

That’s a very good example. I was thinking of using the example of the Polish National Catholic Church. But this isn’t only true of them, but of just about any small religious group, Christian or non-Christian.

 

[Entwhistler]

I agree. But that’s not about not liking the EF or growing tired of it. It’s about logistics. If there was a Latin Mass nearby they would probably go just like the Byzantine Catholics would go if they had a Byzantine Church.

 

[Augustinian]

If they’re in the same area, yes. The traditional parish is home. It is where their friends and family are. But what happens when college or a job takes them to another area, one without a convenient EF Mass and without a parish that is full of such strong community bonds?

Even if they are in the same area, if they meet a young lady from a family that isn’t affiliated with the Latin Mass, the young man is most likely going to follow her to a mainstream vernacular church.

 

[AndrewAxland]

If there was a Latin Mass nearby they would probably go just like the Byzantine Catholics would go if they had a Byzantine Church.

If a TLM mass in a HUGE urban diocese like Chicago fails to draw in more than 200 participants, I’d have to say that Msgr. Pope is correct in saying that the ceiling for this niche pool is very low indeed.

There’s no point in building a logistical delivery system for a product that few people are interested in.

 

[Entwhistler]

Didn’t their church burn down though? That puts a damper on growth. Besides, the FSSP parish isn’t the only Latin Mass in Chicago. The Canons of St. John Cantius have a few churches there and they do both Ad Orientem OF and the EF.

 

[AndrewAxland]

Didn’t their church burn down though?

Yes. They had 200 attending BEFORE the fire. Do you have any evidence that any of the other TLMs attract near as much? Let’s be very generous and double the figure that Msgr. Pope gives, and say that there are 2000 people who regularly attend the EF in the whole Archdiocese, which serves 2.2 million Catholics. That is less than 1/10 of 1%. It’s pretty hard to argue that there is much demand for it starting with a number like that. And I don’t think that the numbers are all that different in any other of the dioceses across the country. You can’t sustain a parish for long with numbers like that.

 

[Entwhistler]

I’ve been to the FSSP parish in NH and they attract more than 200. Also, Dallas has a huge EF community. It offers five Masses every Sunday. Chicago is probably a one-off that fizzled out due to a small community and a fire. Besides, the Institute of Christ the King has its headquarters in Chicago. They are the second biggest EF order besides the FSSP.

 

[AndrewAxland]

I’ve been to the FSSP parish in NH and they attract more than 200.

Out of 310,000 Catholics in the Diocese. Sorry, but that microscopic, too.

To keep a parish going, from the Bishop’s standpoint, you need a core group of long-term dedicated parishioners that is numerous enough to pay the bills. Most of the larger dioceses across the country are closing and merging parishes by the dozens because they can’t do so.

Sorry, I’m still not seeing any numbers here that inspire me with any confidence that the TLM movement in the US is sustainable in the long term. I see a lot of hype and boosterism of the “fake it until you make it” and “build it and they will come” type, but nothing even remotely reliable.

 

[Entwhistler]

Of course its microscopic, this is one church. It’s not the diocese. And they have more than 200 folks. There are parishes in my diocese with an equal amount of people who do just fine.

Sorry, I’m still not seeing any numbers here that inspire me with any confidence that the TLM movement in the US is sustainable in the long term.

I mentioned Dallas. They have five Masses every Sunday.

 

[Augustinian]

Sorry, I’m still not seeing any numbers here that inspire me with any confidence that the TLM movement in the US is sustainable in the long term.

Its certainly not self sustaining, numbers are not sufficient. The Latin mass movement will definitely have to continue to work to keep new people coming in to replace those who leave for geographical and family reasons.

 

[AndrewAxland]

I mentioned Dallas. They have five Masses every Sunday.

How many regular attendees out of a total of almost a million Catholics in the Diocese? It’s probably again a fraction of 1%.

The Latin mass movement will definitely have to continue to work to keep new people coming in to replace those who leave for geographical and family reasons.

You left out the biggest reason: death. Interest in the TLM is highest in those who actually remember it from pre-VII days, and the overwhelming bulk of those are past retirement age. Few of them will be left in 20 years.

As for drumming up support among younger people, good luck with that. Keeping them in the parishes that are already established is a big enough challenge for bishops today, and you are going to have solid numbers to convince bishops that there is a pool of interested millennials to be tapped. Again, I find claims that “millennials are flocking to the TLM” hugely exagerated, and more hot air than actual cash in the collection basket, which is the main thing that the bishops are concerned about.

 

[Augustinian]

You left out the biggest reason: death. Interest in the TLM is highest in those who actually remember it from pre-VII days, and the overwhelming bulk of those are past retirement age. Few of them will be left in 20 years.

I left it out on purpose, as folks around here on CAF have said that the Latin Mass is most popular among the young uns. Not among the senior set.

I take it that you dispute that?

I haven’t seen the TLM since the 1960’s, although I used to listen to it on the radio several years ago. So I can’t say for sure.

 

[AndrewAxland]

I take it that you dispute that?

Yes, I do. Like I said above, I have not seen any credible evidence for widespread interest among my generation (I’m 58), and even less among my sons’ generation (they are in their early 20s). Nor, apparently, has anyone else outside the TLM movement, as any claims of this sort come exclusively from within the movement itself.

 

[Entwhistler]

How many regular attendees out of a total of almost a million Catholics in the Diocese? It’s probably again a fraction of 1%.

But again, it’s just one church. It’s unfair to compare it to the entire diocese. That would be like saying the Melkite Church in America will disappear because one Church has 300 people while the diocese has thousands.

No, I think the EF is here to stay. Will it become as popular as the OF? No. But will it remain a consistent minority? I think so. Obviously the EF will have to shed its bitter anti-Vatican II stereotype that some of the older folks have given it. Thankfully it is shedding it with the influx of newer and younger families. And it will also have to get new folks to start coming to it to sustain it. But I think it will. Especially if the OF Masses continue to be lackluster liturgically.