The Generational Divide

[misstherese]

Not exactly. Veiling does not exist as a concept for Catholic laity. Head covering is a gesture of piety—the “veil” or mantilla is a fashion choice for that gesture.

Either way, fashion isn’t the point. The point is, head covering is the goal, whether that be veiling or wearing a hat of some sort. But veiling is easy. Just throw it on and walk out the door. I think wearing hats aren’t much of a thing anymore on the common person so it’s not seen in church really either (except on the older women). I have caps, but that might seem informal. Wearing a hoodie would be odd. A fedora is too bulky and might seem rude for those behind me. A winter hat could work, but only for winter.

We aren’t much of a head covering sort generation I’ve noticed (outside of church I mean). Perhaps that’s why veils seem out of place, because they’re never seen outside. But they are more “dressed up” and if you want to cover your head, they are practical and easy (at least for me).

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Several of the parishes in my diocese have Latin masses. None of them are SSPX or FSSP or any of the other groups dedicated to the TLM. I’d imagine the same is true of other metropolitan diocese.

 

[AndrewAxland]

Several of the parishes in my diocese have Latin masses.

Only one priest in our diocese is willing to do the EF, and he does that at the co-cathedral. I’ve only heard a handful of people ever mention it. Not much interest for it up our way. We’re the deepest blue of the blue states, so not many conservative people around here.

 

[gcshapero]

Granted, I haven’t provided the data, so I wouldn’t blame anyone for not taking my personal observation as wrong, but the mentality that those who support TLM, orthodoxy, etc are just LARPing at large…is that not judging them by something you couldn’t possibly know? Are you going by how it feels to you? How it simply seems?

I think some may have been drawn to the nostalgic element, but this is what the Church refers to as a Sacramental – for those who found beauty in it, it has been used to draw them in through their human senses to connect on a spiritual level. That’s why the Church historically has been such a bastion for art.

Granted, if that’s not what you meant, then I just misread it and we can leave that alone. But would it not be fair to say “These Baby Boomers keep dismissing orthodoxy because, I bet, they hate the Church and Jesus and really want to see a rise of the State”?

 

[AndrewAxland]

I never mentioned LARPing. That is something else entirely.

 

[gcshapero]

I never mentioned LARPing. That is something else entirely.

In other words, not taking it seriously – just dressing the part for the sake of entertainment or emotions. I didn’t literally mean LARPing of course.

 

[AndrewAxland]

In other words, not taking it seriously – just dressing the part for the sake of entertainment or emotions.

Diversion would be have a better choice of words. And cosplayers often do take their personas rather seriously and spend a lot of time and effort developing the appearance, style and behavior of their characters. LARPers are much more superficial, and any character development is directly related to playing the game. Mantillas would appeal very much to cosplayers, but to LARPers only if they gave them special powers or such in the game.

 

[gcshapero]

Those differences aside, you understand my point though about the Sacramental element to some of these things, right?

 

[AndrewAxland]

you understand my point though about the Sacramental element to some of these things, right?

No, I don’t. My understanding of a sacramental is something like a medal or scapular. I wouldn’t consider a mantilla a sacramental. In fact, I find it odd that you would.

 

[gcshapero]

A medal or a scapular are indeed sacramentals, but consider why those are also sacramentals. A sacrament is something established by Christ where as a sacramental is something established by the Church, and often used to connect to our human senses.

For example, genuflecting, religious’ habits, rosaries, holy water, veils, statues – these are recognized as sacramentals because of their functions presented by the Church. They’re not all equal and not all have equal function, and the Catechism goes into this as well.

But even that aside, at what point would you find validity if someone, let’s say a woman of any age, understood the reasoning behind the mantilla and wanted to partake in that because she found it so significant?

 

[Ann_Stanton]

But would it not be fair to say “These Baby Boomers keep dismissing orthodoxy because, I bet, they hate the Church and Jesus and really want to see a rise of the State”?

It is not fair to say this about any generation. Not everyone believes the same just because they are in the same generation. Most Catholics love the Church and Jesus despite their age. I know some people in their 90’s who are not as judgmental as you appear to be. As long as someone practices their faith, that is all that is important.

 

[gcshapero]

It is not fair to say this about any generation. Not everyone believes the same just because they are in the same generation.

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

 

[AndrewAxland]

For example, genuflecting, religious’ habits, rosaries, holy water, veils, statues – these are recognized as sacramentals

First I’ve hear of veils being a sacramental. You say you got this from the CCC. Do you have a cite, because I’m not finding it.

 

[gcshapero]

Indeed. The CCC doesn’t mention veils specifically or any other sacramental (they don’t list sacramentals), but it explains what sacramentals are, and it serves to reason that veils would be put in this category as a sacramental sign, like a priest’s collar or a benedictine medal or making the sign of the cross.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c4a1.htm

 

[AndrewAxland]

and it serves to reason that veils would be put in this category as a sacramental sign, like a priest’s collar or a benedictine medal or making the sign of the cross.

I would beg to differ. I don’t see what veils could possibly have in common with any of these. Sixteen years of Catholic education, including old school nuns, and I never heard anything of the sort.

 

[gcshapero]

OK, interesting. How would you define sacramentals? What makes a sacramental a sacramental?

 

[OraLabora]

Traditionalists tend to be the glue that holds the Church together. They go to Church for the Church

I’m as close to “traditionalist” as you can find in my part of Quebec and eschew parish Masses so I can attend Mass at the abbey I’m attached to as oblate, which while in the OF has Latin/Greek Gregorian chant with the rest sung in French plainchant, a pipe organ, beautiful liturgy, incense, and everything Sacrosanctum Concilium said the OF liturgy was supposed to be. I also pray the Hours daily, and attempt to live out the faith inspired by the Rule of St. Benedict.

But I don’t go to church for the Church. I go to church to have an encounter with the living Christ, present materially in the Eucharist.

The rest, i.e. the bells, smells and sounds, are simply icing on the cake.

That said I also have no interest in going back to the pre-Vatican II Quebec Church, which was largely Jansenist and did real harm to the survival of the faith during the Quiet Revolution (which coincided with Vatican II, time-wise). A double-whammy from which the Quebec Church never really recovered.

 

[AndrewAxland]

How would you define sacramentals?

Let’s go with the Church’s definition: 'Sacred signs which bear a resemblance to the sacraments. They signify effects, particularly of a spiritual nature, which are obtained through the intercession of the Church. By them, men are disposed to receive the chief effect of the sacraments, and various occasions in life are rendered holy” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 1667).

I can’t imagine why you would include veils here. Curious what your pastor would say.

 

[MonteRCMS]

Studied Latin and French in high school and enjoy the Latin Mass.

Enjoy learning about historical Catholicism.

 

[gcshapero]

Let’s go with the Church’s definition: 'Sacred signs which bear a resemblance to the sacraments. They signify effects, particularly of a spiritual nature, which are obtained through the intercession of the Church. By them, men are disposed to receive the chief effect of the sacraments, and various occasions in life are rendered holy” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, No. 1667).

I can’t imagine why you would include veils here. Curious what your pastor would say.

This all seems to put veils, vestments, holy oils, etc in this category.

My pastor did a whole series on this actually where he separated the uses of sacramentals, their unique functions, and their benefits. Veils were specifically included and he went into the point of how veils are used during the liturgy to cover what is precious. This is why women would be seen wearing veils.

Have you spoken to your pastor about this? I’m not being facetious, I’m genuinely curious as to how things like veils are vestments are categorized if not as sacramentals.