The Gift that keeps on taking

[simplynoone]

No, simplynoone, none of us in the Church, not even the Apostles nor even saint Paul, has “assigned” God to a human body. Only God can “assign” Himself to a human body.
As for “defining God”, all we can describe of Him are the things God has revealed of Himself to Man.
The things that look new in Christianity were already IMPLICITLY present in the Old Testament. Just as the dogmas of the Church have been defined more precisely on special occasions (very often because of rampant heresies that threatened to be believed at the expense of the true doctrine… the Sons of Israel must have had many similar occasions to define and affirm what God truly teaches in the face of heresies and repeated recriminations.)

That God assigned Himself to a human body is not the Jewish line of thought though. It is not based on the Tanakh. Deut 4:15,16; Hosea 11:9

So, where did the Christians come up with this concept to the point that they feel the need to condemn others for not believing it?

 

[simplynoone]

I am sure you never read Essay On The Development Of doctrine In The Catholic Church by John Henry Cardinal Newman… Dogmas don’t just pop up out of the blue!

No, they don’t. So where is the dogma of the Church coming from because it is not coming from the text they are claiming.

 

[simplynoone]

I still haven’t had an explanation of what you exactly mean by “mystical” and by “not based on life that was created by God”…

I apologize. I do remember you asking and I meant to answer. When I say mystical/mysticism, I mean it in the sense that it is unintelligible … not obvious to the intelligence. The writers of the Tanakh are clear that God’s ways are not hid from us. That it is only revealed to Israel, the People, has to do with their paying attention and using their mind to understand.

 

[Answersplease]

I wanted to reply to this one first. You are talking about the Jewish People being racist and yet everything you say here is against the Jewish People … wiping them out is what you are basically supporting. I do not advocate wiping out the Christians … only to give them insight as to what the Tanakh actually says and even their own NT. Quit being so ignorant and pay attention to what’s going on.

In all honesty, if the Jewish People did not exist, Islam and Christianity would not exist either. So really, the two piggy back religions should be more appreciative and attentive to the Jews.

You twist my words, just like you twist both the Old Testament and the New Testament, I am NOT against JEWS, I am against bigots who think they are more special than everyone else.

I don’t advocate wiping anyone out, YOU SAID THAT, your the one who should stop being IGNORANT.

If the Jews did not exist, then God would have found some other people (Exodus 32:9-10).

Exodus 32:9
The LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people.

Exodus 32:10
“Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.”

 

[Answersplease]

I wanted to reply to this one first. You are talking about the Jewish People being racist and yet everything you say here is against the Jewish People … wiping them out is what you are basically supporting. I do not advocate wiping out the Christians … only to give them insight as to what the Tanakh actually says and even their own NT. Quit being so ignorant and pay attention to what’s going on.

In all honesty, if the Jewish People did not exist, Islam and Christianity would not exist either. So really, the two piggy back religions should be more appreciative and attentive to the Jews.

You twist my words, just like you twist both the Old Testament and the New Testament, I am NOT against Jews. There are Catholic Jews and I am happy they are there.

What I advocate is for racists to stop thinking they are more special than anyone else LIKE your “collective messiah”.

I don’t advocate wiping anyone out, YOU said that and it came from YOUR OWN MIND, your the one who should stop being IGNORANT.
You automatically think that anyone who criticizes any Jews are automatically genocidal, your WRONG.

If the Jews did not exist, then God would have found some other people (Exodus 32:9-10).

Christianity and Islam would probably say they carry on will of God, they don’t "piggy back " on obstinate people who have defied God and were punished by God time after time.

Exodus 32:9
The LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people.”

Exodus 32:10
“Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.”

 

[RickHolland]

If you are speaking of simplynoone, it’s she, not he. I too made the same mistake at first. (I even once thought it was a second name used by Y. Ben Masada!!!)

Thanks for the correction

 

[RickHolland]

I used to be told that in those days a “brother” either a brother or a cousin. In Abraham’s time, it could also be said of a nephew!
Also, why did Jesus say: “Behold your mother” to John (who was not Jesus’ brother, for he and his brother James were sons of Zebedee in Bethsaida!) when the custom was to entrust the remaining brothers and sisters of the family to his parents’ care and vice-versa, except where there are no brothers or sisters…

At that time His brothers were not believers; therefore this reflects both a carnal and spiritual sence of the term brother. Remember when He was told His brothers and mother were outside and wanting Him; then He said who is my mother and brother, then He gives the answer. This is the same sense.

 

[RickHolland]

How are you sure these are physical brothers? After all in Matthew 12:49, he points to his disciples and says Behold! My mother and my brethren.

Because Scripture distinquishes this in other places as well. Also, the Sripture says implicitly if not explicitly the following:
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, ***before they came together she was found to be with child ***by the Holy Spirit.

Paul speaking in his letter to the Galatians
"Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days. But I ***did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. ***

Furthermore, the Greek distinquishes the word cousin, Barabas and Mark were cousins and also"brothers".

Col 4:10Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends you his greetings; and {also} Barnabas’s cousin Mark (about whom you received instructions; if he comes to you, welcome him);

anepsios; a cousin

Here is the word used in Galatians cited above for brother:
Gal. 1:19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.
adelphos;

1. a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
2. having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3. a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
4. brethren in Christ
   1. his brothers by blood
   2. all men
   3. apostles
   4. Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place

Thanks to the Greek rendering, unlike the Hebrew, we can know for sure; Jesus also had sisters as well according to Scripture.

 

[Lapell]

Gentiles were never required, even by the apostles to be circumcised … that is not a requirement to be considered righteous. When it is required is when a Gentile wants to join to the covenant between God and Israel. And man does not resurrect after death … not in the zombie type way so many believe. Is not 2,000 years enough to see this is a fact and that the Tanakh saying such is not lying?

There’s one beef right there, that the Church would allow Gentiles to join to the Covenant between God and Israel WITHOUT them having to be circumcised… as disciples of Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[RickHolland]

That is like a Muslim saying there are only two types of people in the world … Muslim and non Muslim. It is all a matter of subjective opinion in this line of thinking. Objectively, the world has many different People with different backgrounds.

Yes, there are two types, muslims and no muslims or Christians and nonChristians or believers and nonbeliers…all are accurate. There are two types of religions in the world, the religion of divine acheivement where God does it all and the religion of human achievment where God does His part and man does his. One is the person and work of the Trinity, the 100% divine and the other is some god and human achievement.

 

[Lapell]

I apologize. I do remember you asking and I meant to answer. When I say mystical/mysticism, I mean it in the sense that it is unintelligible … not obvious to the intelligence. The writers of the Tanakh are clear that God’s ways are not hid from us. That it is only revealed to Israel, the People, has to do with their paying attention and using their mind to understand.

Did it occur to you that since God had to reveal Himself to Israel through Moses and the prophet (and to some extent only) He was not so obvious even to the Sons of Israel? And even after, they kept acting in ways that angered God… So they did not accept the terms of God’s Covenant with them even though they had said yes to It.

 

[Lapell]

At that time His brothers were not believers; therefore this reflects both a carnal and spiritual sence of the term brother. Remember when He was told His brothers and mother were outside and wanting Him; then He said who is my mother and brother, then He gives the answer. This is the same sense.

So why did Jesus say: “Behold your mother” to John. If He had blood brothers, they should have had precedence, shouldn’t they?

 

[Lapell]

Did it occur to you that since God had to reveal Himself to Israel through Moses and the prophet (and to some extent only) He was not so obvious even to the Sons of Israel? And even after, they kept acting in ways that angered God… So they did not accept the terms of God’s Covenant with them even though they had said yes to It.

This, even though God revealed Himself to them and that His ways are not hidden from them… and us.

 

[RickHolland]

So why did Jesus say: “Behold your mother” to John. If He had blood brothers, they should have had precedence, shouldn’t they?

Yes they would have precedence in the carnal sense, but Jesus emphasis is on the spiritual and true sense of what is His brother and siter and mother etc. A non-believer would not be a brother or sister or mother in the spiritual and purest sense.

 

[Lapell]

That God assigned Himself to a human body is not the Jewish line of thought though. It is not based on the Tanakh. Deut 4:15,16; Hosea 11:9

So, where did the Christians come up with this concept to the point that they feel the need to condemn others for not believing it?

Tell me, how could the Israelites fathom that a thing like this would happen? even when it’s implicit in the TaNaKH, how could one foresee that something like this could ever happen?
Also, if you deny the need for the whole human race to be redeemed and saved (hence the sacrificial system of Judaism), of course you can’t see that God would take such a step for our sake. We are in awe of this, we haven’t deserved this per se…

 

[Lapell]

Yes they would have precedence in the carnal sense, but Jesus emphasis is on the spiritual and true sense of what is His brother and siter and mother etc. A non-believer would not be a brother or sister or mother in the spiritual and purest sense.

But Jesus did not say: “Woman, behold your spiritual son.” and “Behold your spiritual mother”…

 

[RickHolland]

But Jesus did not say: “Woman, behold your spiritual son.” and “Behold your spiritual mother”…

Look you are Catholic and cannot accept the truth of Scripture concerning Mary; otherwise you would not be one of the “faithful”. You are able to deny what is obvious concerning Mary and her other children despite the clear evidence. What does that say about the rest of Scripture? I don’t know; between you and God.

 

[Lapell]

Look you are Catholic and cannot accept the truth of Scripture concerning Mary; otherwise you would not be one of the “faithful”. You are able to deny what is obvious concerning Mary and her other children despite the clear evidence. What does that say about the rest of Scripture? I don’t know; between you and God.

What’s obvious concerning Mary as to having other children? And what “clear” evidence are you talking about? And what’s so wrong with my being Catholic?
I believe in Jesus the Christ, and that He is the 2nd Person of the Trinity, just like you do (if you are Christian, bien entendu!) Never read the analogy of the new wine needing a new wineskin?

 

[simplynoone]

You twist my words, just like you twist both the Old Testament and the New Testament, I am NOT against Jews.

Yes you are.

There are Catholic Jews and I am happy they are there.

There is no such thing as Catholic Jews. Sorry.

What I advocate is for racists to stop thinking they are more special than anyone else LIKE your “collective messiah”.

Ironic you should call me racist since I am not Jewish … yet. And I find the Jewish to be the most precious of all people on earth, even more so than my ancestors (which would be Irish) and that is because without them, we would not have the Word of God, the Tanakh.

And that you have an issue with me thinking of Israel as the collective Messiah only shows your issues with not only Isaiah, but Jesus as well since he said himself that salvation is of the Jews. John 4:22

I don’t advocate wiping anyone out, YOU said that and it came from YOUR OWN MIND, your the one who should stop being IGNORANT.

I got that impression from not only your posts in this thread but in another one. If you don’t want to be seen as one who advocates wiping the Jews out, then perhaps you should think before you type.

You automatically think that anyone who criticizes any Jews are automatically genocidal, your WRONG.

Not anyone … only you.

If the Jews did not exist, then God would have found some other people (Exodus 32:9-10).

But the Jewish do exist and accepted.

Christianity and Islam would probably say they carry on will of God, they don’t "piggy back " on obstinate people who have defied God and were punished by God time after time.

Doesn’t make them right just because they say they are.

Exodus 32:9
The LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and behold, they are an obstinate people.”

Exodus 32:10
“Now then let Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.”

This was obviously a test of Moses … and Moses passed because he understood what God was going to do through this special People.

 

[simplynoone]

Because Scripture distinquishes this in other places as well. Also, the Sripture says implicitly if not explicitly the following:
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, ***before they came together she was found to be with child ***by the Holy Spirit.

Paul speaking in his letter to the Galatians
"Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days. But I ***did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. ***

Furthermore, the Greek distinquishes the word cousin, Barabas and Mark were cousins and also"brothers".

Col 4:10Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends you his greetings; and {also} Barnabas’s cousin Mark (about whom you received instructions; if he comes to you, welcome him);

anepsios; a cousin

Here is the word used in Galatians cited above for brother:
Gal. 1:19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.
adelphos;

1. a brother, whether born of the same two parents or only of the same father or mother
2. having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, or countryman
3. a fellow believer, united to another by the bond of affection
4. brethren in Christ
   1. his brothers by blood
   2. all men
   3. apostles
   4. Christians, as those who are exalted to the same heavenly place

Thanks to the Greek rendering, unlike the Hebrew, we can know for sure; Jesus also had sisters as well according to Scripture.

I am not disputing that Jesus had brother and sisters, but there is no way to distinguish that these were his physical brothers thanks to the passage in Matthew.