The Glorious Miracle of Prophet Muhammed: Mi'raj

[hasantas]

=(name removed by moderator);12979099]

So when the Quran talks of the people of the book we can assume they should not be regarded as fellow believers as Jews and Christians do not accept this miracle.

Allah know the best. First you should believe in Muhammed as a prophet and later you can consider Mi’raj. If you reject Muhammed purposely then you should be unbeliever. But when I say that Jesus is not God that make not me an unbeliever. Because God sent prophets and Jesus lived like a human and a prophet. So nobody can prove that Jesus was God. There are metaphorical statements in Bible and you comment them as if Jesus was God. But most of direct meaning verses in Bible propve that Jesus was servant of God as Jesus stated many times that He came to fulfil wish of Father(God).

Christ ascended under his own power, where is there to ascend beyond the heavens? You may perhaps cite the differing levels of heaven sometimes presented in Jewish mysticism but Christ sits at the right hand of God so he ascended as far as possible. So the claim that Mohammad ascended higher than that is at best dubious.

If you do not know beyond of Heavens that is your problem. Do you think God is into Heavens like a king in palace? So do you put God into matter and time? You should review your thoughts about God. God is beyond of heavens, matter, time and every entity. So in Mi’raj propohet Muhammed got closest to God which nobody even Gabriel could approach. And Jesus was ascended to Heavens which prove that Jesus is not God because Heavens is not home of God. The essence and entity of God is beyond of time and matter. If that were not so then we would have many problems with materialists to prove that God is infinite!

Actually I would say it demonstrates how much Islam is essentially a Christian heresy that has mutated as time went on.

I cannot understand what you say but if Christian have some heresies that concern them.

 

[7_Sorrows]

SyroMalankara;12978383:

Why are you so nervous about Islam? If you believe in Islam so do yuo have to reject God?

Miracles could be evidences for who witness them. But also miracles make faith of believers more stronger. For unbelievers is more use to start with evidences which prove existence of God. Non-Catholic religion forum is not for that but for religious issues.

Muslims respect Christians in any way but Christians never do. So who have more tolerance and love? If Christians are believers then they should respect prophet Muhammed as Muslims respect all prophets.

Muslims respect Christians and are tolerant of Christians? That is not what I perceive from the headlines in today’s news.
In Saudi Arabia you cannot even possess a Bible.
Muslims are free to practice Islam in the United States. We have freedom of religion. Not so in many Muslim countries. It is a crime to convert from Islam to Christianity. How is that tolerant?

 

[hasantas]

You didn’t answer my question about why he went from Mecca to Jerusalem? What was the purpose of going to Jerusalem?

Muhammed did not go Jerusalem by His decision. He was took there by God. Jerusalem is the hometown and territory of many prophets so Jerusalem is holy. Jerusalem was the first direction for Muslims to head for Salat. Those should be reasons for going there but Allah took proophet to Jerusalem. You say as if prophet Muhammed went Jerusalem by Himself but He was took there by God. So God know the best.

 

[hasantas]

hasantas;12979107:

Muslims respect Christians and are tolerant of Christians? That is not what I perceive from the headlines in today’s news.
In Saudi Arabia you cannot even possess a Bible.
Muslims are free to practice Islam in the United States. We have freedom of religion. Not so in many Muslim countries. It is a crime to convert from Islam to Christianity. How is that tolerant?

There are few Christians in Turkey and they can perform their religion. There are many open Churchs in many Islamic countries. I think you point a specific case otherwise evangelist can make their propaganda easily in anywhere. But I do not mean that political issues. What I mean is about each other’s faith. Muslims respect Christians ofcourse according to Islamic view but Christians are fond of to reject Islam totaly. I stated that.

 

[hasantas]

Hasantas ,I can only admire your zeal in your beliefs ,though you must understand that Catholics have a distinct advantage over you when it comes to believing our faith in Christ and I quote

." Anyone can read all the primary historical evidence about the life, character and mission of Jesus by reading the gospels. This can be done in the course of one afternoon. The gospel biographies of Jesus could be called “public truth”, for they are the most widely published and readily available texts in the world today."

“Not so with Muhammad’s life. While millions of Muslims do seek to imitate Muhammad, detailed information
about him is not readily accessible to them. It must ultimately be derived from the Quran, from thousands of hadiths and from biographies, the sira. The full extent of this material is vast and much of it is only available in classical Arabic…” (quoted from the book called **The Third Choice…Islam,Dhimmitude and Freedom by Mark Durie. **So the problem I can see in your trying to convince the readers at Catholic Answers about your assertions about the life of Muhammad relies on complex handed down versions which even Muslims cannot agree on, for example Shi’a,Shi’ite,Sunni branches of Islam .

The Gospels tells us that just before Jesus went back to God His Father in Heaven( after His Resurrection from His death on the Cross for our sins on the third day) on Ascension Thursday ;instructed his apostles with this message “go out to all the world and teach The Gospel, he who believes and is baptized will be saved; he who does not believe will be condemned.”

Christ’s role as God made flesh(true God and true man—Divine person–human nature) was as a Prophet, Priest and King. This was all foretold in The Old Testament History of Salvation through the selection of The Jewish race as Gods’ Chosen people, whom God revealed himself through the Prophets.

You have I believe your work cut out to give good reliable evidence to prove your tenants of belief in your assertions. But that does not mean that I do not respect your point of view and your convictions in following Islam.

And you can believe in Christian sources and tradition but you do not believe in Islamic sources!

The Qur’an is never altered and corrupted so Qur’an is the most reliable scripture to believe in. The positions of Gospels should be like Hadiths. Because Hadiths were written later. There are some issues in Hadiths. But Muslims have thousands of authoritative Hadiths to follow. And also Muslims have a vast and trustable tradition to follow.

Now you cannot even reconcile Gospels between each others exactly and you claim that Islamic knowledges are untidy!

Sects of Christianity are so far from each other. Between Sunna and Shi’a there are some political problems, that is all. Political problem are dangerous because such problem cause fights.

 

[zamyrabyrd]

SyroMalankara;12978383:

Miracles could be evidences for who witness them. But also miracles make faith of believers more stronger. For unbelievers is more use to start with evidences which prove existence of God. Non-Catholic religion forum is not for that but for religious issues.

I do know where you are coming from since things in the Bible didn’t make sense until I saw them with eyes of faith. As for religious or any kind of persecution, this is usually political,** majorities oppressing minorities**. Look what is happening in Burma. Buddhists who are supposed to be peaceful according to their religion are killing and destroying the villages of the Moslem minority.
Apparently there is one boat of many going around in the sea packed with refugees in the hot sun for about two months while Thaliand and Indonesia pass the buck from one to the other.
I personally like Moslems very much and am very sorry they have been caught up in a poisonous political situation not of their own making. The British should be ultimately thanked or blamed for the mess with all their meddling in the Middle East and India, ripping apart tribal loyalties and drawing lines in the sand for about 4 centuries. The US comes a close second being more recent but not less lethal.

 

[Kaninchen]

The Qur’an is never altered and corrupted so Qur’an is the most reliable scripture to believe in.

Well, even if it were the case that it has never been altered and corrupted, it would only be the most reliable scripture to believe in if one thought it to be a kind of scripture in the first place. If one thinks it to be nonsense, then it’s just unaltered and uncorrupted nonsense.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Why does your post #49 say it was my original post you quoted? I don’t remember posting that.

And I was quoting Jharek’s post but it says Hasantas.
[/quote]

 

[7_Sorrows]

Muhammed did not go Jerusalem by His decision. He was took there by God. Jerusalem is the hometown and territory of many prophets so Jerusalem is holy. Jerusalem was the first direction for Muslims to head for Salat. Those should be reasons for going there but Allah took proophet to Jerusalem. You say as if prophet Muhammed went Jerusalem by Himself but He was took there by God. So God know the best.

Yes. I understand that he was taken on the journey by Allah. Does it mention this in the Quran. I thought Jerusalem was not mentioned in the Quran. Is it a hadith?
What is Salat?

 

[estesbob]

Well, even if it were the case that it has never been altered and corrupted, it would only be the most reliable scripture to believe in if one thought it to be a kind of scripture in the first place. If one thinks it to be nonsense, then it’s just unaltered and uncorrupted nonsense.

I believe Homers"Odessy" is uncorrupted but that doesn’t believe in Cyclops

 

[meltzerboy]

Well, even if it were the case that it has never been altered and corrupted, it would only be the most reliable scripture to believe in if one thought it to be a kind of scripture in the first place. If one thinks it to be nonsense, then it’s just unaltered and uncorrupted nonsense.

Perhaps there is a middle ground. The Qur’an may not be considered Holy Scripture to people like us but it need not be nonsense as a result. There may be some wise and moral ideas contained therein.

 

[campeador]

That is not odd miracle which prove Muhammed. Muhammad splitted the Moon with sign of finger.

Not according to science:

No current scientific evidence reports that the Moon was split into two (or more) parts and then reassembled at any point in the past.
lunarscience.nasa.gov/?question=evidence-moon-having-been-split-two

 

[arthra]

The ascent to heaven is not a unique phenomenau in my view… “Prayer is a ladder by which everyone can ascend to heaven.”

Elijah ascended… An apocryphal book has Moses ascending… and

Moses ascended in the cloud, was hidden by the cloud, and was sanctified by the cloud. (Babylonian Talmud Yoma 4a)

When Moses was to ascend, a cloud descended and lay before him… And the cloud covered Moses and carried him up. (Pesikta Rabbati 20:4)

thesacredpage.com/2007/05/did-moses-ascend-into-heaven.html

Enoch was supposed to have ascended…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entering_Heaven_alive

also see:

orthodoxwiki.org/images/3/37/Ladder_of_Divine_Ascent.jpg

 

[hasantas]

Not according to science:

No current scientific evidence reports that the Moon was split into two (or more) parts and then reassembled at any point in the past.
lunarscience.nasa.gov/?question=evidence-moon-having-been-split-two

Could you show scientific evidences for ascension of Jesus?

Miracles are beyond of science and physical laws. So if God splitted moon and then joined in exactly former situation then science cannot prove if moon splitted or not. Because God do not fulfil miracles through physical laws. But is possible to find tracks of spliting or not.

 

[hasantas]

Yes. I understand that he was taken on the journey by Allah. Does it mention this in the Quran. I thought Jerusalem was not mentioned in the Quran. Is it a hadith?
What is Salat?

Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram(in Mecca) to al-Masjid al- Aqsa(in Jerusalem), whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing. Al-Isra(17) :1

It is obvious in Qur’an.

In Hadiths there are more details about Masjid al-Aqsa. Pagans did not believe if Muhammed went to Masjid al Aqsa which is in Jerusalem. Because it was a mounth lasting journey to Jerusalem. Pagans asked about Masjid al Aqsa in very details and Muhammed answered correctly.

 

[Durnford]

And you can believe in Christian sources and tradition but you do not believe in Islamic sources!

The Qur’an is never altered and corrupted so Qur’an is the most reliable scripture to believe in. The positions of Gospels should be like Hadiths. Because Hadiths were written later. There are some issues in Hadiths. But Muslims have thousands of authoritative Hadiths to follow. And also Muslims have a vast and trustable tradition to follow.

Now you cannot even reconcile Gospels between each others exactly and you claim that Islamic knowledges are untidy!

Sects of Christianity are so far from each other. Between Sunna and Shi’a there are some political problems, that is all. Political problem are dangerous because such problem cause fights.

Nonsense

 

[7_Sorrows]

Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram(in Mecca) to al-Masjid al- Aqsa(in Jerusalem), whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing. Al-Isra(17) :1

It is obvious in Qur’an.

In Hadiths there are more details about Masjid al-Aqsa. Pagans did not believe if Muhammed went to Masjid al Aqsa which is in Jerusalem. Because it was a mounth lasting journey to Jerusalem. Pagans asked about Masjid al Aqsa in very details and Muhammed answered correctly.

Is that why the mosque is named al Aqsa in Jerusalem? Did Muhammed ascend to the heavens and beyond in Jerusalem?
What does Masjid mean?

 

[hasantas]

Qur’an ask Muslims to believe in previous scriptures. There is no need of previous scriptures for Islam to prove itself. But, for intance, Christians do not regard Qur’an so Muslims to make it easy take from Bible.

There have been different dialects of Arabic and Qur’an was written in different dialects. In some circumstances those distinct dialects present some problems. So Caliph Uthman wrote Qur’an in Quraysh dialect and burnt others. That was an obligation. and also some Sahabas had compiled verse for themselves. But they wrote some notes beside verses. It was possible for these notes to be interfused into verses. So caliph Uthman destroy all such copies to protect Qur’an. It is not a myth.

 

[Kaninchen]

Perhaps there is a middle ground. The Qur’an may not be considered Holy Scripture to people like us but it need not be nonsense as a result. There may be some wise and moral ideas contained therein.

In other words, it need not be nonsense but it may well be nonsense.

I was merely pointing out to the OP that repetition of a particular argument doesn’t establish whether it has significance. Whether the Qur’an is or isn’t nonsense is something one would establish by other means.

 

[Kaninchen]

I believe Homers"Odessy" is uncorrupted but that doesn’t believe in Cyclops

Quite why Muslims think that maintaining that their scriptures are ‘uncorrupted’ somehow establishes as being ‘true’ is beyond me.