The God who wasn't there.

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Everyone has provided great resources for refuting this latest bilgewater, and it is important, but I think this is a case of falling away because of the will, not the *intellect. *In such cases there is no point arguing (in fact, it will more likely harden his heart than soften). The only thing I can think of, which seems counter-intuitive, is to increase your personal holiness. (I’m being colloquial, God increases our holiness, but you know what I mean). The tools you need are not apologetics, but rather (from least to greatest): Encouragement, good example, prayer, and the grand-daddy of them all–imitating Christ through suffering and sacrifice. Reist the urge to toss out anti-atheist zingers or stumpers, and resist the urge to react to anti-Christian zingers. Focus on Our Lord and if anyone wants to follow, praise be to God.

Oh yeah, and our prayers, which you at least have from me and probably many others here. God bless,

Scott
 
Thanks, no mater what I say he just smiles and says watch the video.
I would ask him, “So your religious beliefs are now entirely based on one video?”

I agree with the previous poster. This isn’t an intellectual decision, but a movement of the will.
 
Encouragement, good example, prayer, and the grand-daddy of them all–imitating Christ through suffering and sacrifice
I wanted to caution you in the above not to make a show of this for his sake because you will just be regarded as a pious fraud, but I think you already knew that. 😉
 
Hello All,

I know the Film in question very well. It is a documentary claiming that Christ was nothing more than a myth. Most wouldn’t bother giving credance to such an outlandish theory, however the film has become cult hit among skeptics.

I feel saddended that Mr. Bajak’s son has been duped by the nonsense in this film, though I do sypmathize with the young man’s search for answers. To the Father I advise the following: for the sake of your son and others, never allow any snide comment or impertinant question to go unanswered. I’ve been through this with my own family members, one cannot allow challenges or questions to the Faith to remain unchallenged; if you don’t speak up, the “skeptic” feels he’s one a small victory. If you want to change your son’s mind, you need to do your part and answer the questions he may have. Always do it in a spirit of Charity, without judgment. But NEVER back down.

I’m going to recommend several works that can help you rip this theory apart below, but I do want to give you atleast a few short answers that can help you in dealing with your son.
  1. The biggest flaw with the Christ-Myth thesis involves the inconsistent use of historical methodology. The principles of Historiography must be applied to all, or they cease to be principles, Christ-Mythers usually refuse to do so many times because the beg the question of the Divinity of Christ. When the same methodology is applied to Christ as to ancient figures such as Socrates and Alexander the Great, he can be attested as a historical person. The inconsistent methodology that they use against Christ can just as easily eliminate Socrates and Alexander from history as well.
  2. The dates concerning the Gospels and authorship are completely misrepresented. Flemming claims that he used the “earliest possible dates.” This was not so, he used the earliest dates allowed by Earl Doherty, the most notorious Christ-Myther in print today. In fact several scholars, including N.T. Wright, the world’s leading New Testament scholar, Scott Hahn, William Lane Craig, Gary Habermas, Antonio Fuentes, Craig Blomberg, Darrell Bock, and the late F.F. Bruce all posit earlier dates with very compeling arguments.
  3. The most absurd claim involves St. Paul’s apparent ignorance of Christ as a person of history. This is simply false just on a natural reading of Paul’s constant insistance that Christ “came in flesh” in order to attack the Docetists, early Gnostic precursors, who denied Christ came in flesh. Of course Paul’s letters didn’t contain much biographical data about Christ, they were pastoral letters addressing individual concerns. In fact, St. Luke’s Gospel was likely written under the influence of St. Paul’s teaching.
  4. There are suffecient contemporary sources which support the existence of Christ atleast as a figure of history. Josephus’ mention of Christ was NOT a total interpolation as Christ-Mythers claim, textual evidence indicates that the Christ mention was doctored before the 4th Century, but it is not likely that the whole phrase was added. Tacticus’ mention also supports Christ as a figure of history. The early Apostolic Fathers Clement of Rome and Ignatius of Antioch’s letters also provide very early historical support that at minimun Christ existed.
  5. The idea that Christ was a rehash of several myths depends upon the logical fallacy Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc, after it, therefore because of it. Just because Christ came after certain myths and resembles some of them, does not mean he was drawn from them. Anthropology reveals that various cultures share similar symbology and mythology even when there is little or no cultural connection. Christ’s story must be seen in its true cultural context as an outgrowth of Judaism, not pagan mystery cults. Further, textual evidence places many of the myths Christ supposedly “rippes off” AFTER Christ lived.
These are just a few, woefully condensed, points which undermine the bulk of the Christ-Myth theory. These books can help tremendously:

Where We Got the Bible: Our Debt to the Catholic Church by Henry Graham

A Guide to the Bible by Antonio Fuentes

The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? by F.F. Bruce

The Historical Reliability of the Gospels by Craig Blomberg

The Historical Jesus: Ancience Evidence for the Life of Christ by Gary Habermas

Reinventing Jesus: How Contemporary Skeptics Miss the Real Jesus and Mislead Popular Culture by J. Ed. Komoszewski, Daniel Wallace, and M. James Sawyer

The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary Habermas and Michael Licona

The Everlasting Man by G.K. Chesterton

I hope these can be of good use. If anyone has any questions about all this, please send me a private message, I’ll be happy to help out as much as I can. :bounce:
 
“It was made into a movie, so it must be true!” - Uh… no.

Look up the concept of a logical fallacy. Movies are full of these.
An example straight from this thread,
“If there is contemporary evidence, then Jesus exists.
There is no contemporary evidence because all writings about him that exist were written after his death.
Therefore, Jesus does not exist.”
This is called Denying the Antecedent
I suspect you can find logical fallacies all through that movie.
Logical Fallacy, List of Fallacies

You can definitely counter any argument that is based on a logical fallacy. Even the wikipedia shows you how! However, I agree with earlier posters that it may not be an intellectual decision.

If it is somewhat intellectual, your refusal to watch the movie may actually be proof that your beliefs were not rigorously formed, and that you are believing without merit. In that case, a rigorous work-up of the movie’s flaws might actually make him respect your beliefs more. I’m an engineer and appreciate that kind of rigor, but few people are “intellectual” in that way.

Hope this helps,
Ed (SR)
 
  1. The dates concerning the Gospels and authorship are completely misrepresented.
Good point. The date thing is an interesting phenomenon. Skeptics of course want to make the dates as late as possible because the have the mistaken notion that “the telephone game” applies. Fundamentalists want it as early as possible because you can’t have believers running around without New Testaments too long or they start to resemble Catholics. Catholics have more fun watching all this. 😃
 
Everyone has provided great resources for refuting this latest bilgewater, and it is important, but I think this is a case of falling away because of the will, not the intellect.
Scott makes an excellent point here.

One of the things that impressed the Romans was the early Christians unbelievable faith.

Looking at it from a Roman view, Christianity was an odd religion. Here was a people who believed that they ate the flesh and drank the blood of their Man-God who rose from the dead. And who was He? A criminal from a backwater Roman territory on the fringe of the civilised world.

Yet, these Christians were so devoted to their faith that they wouldn’t pay simple homage to Caesar and Roman deities. They would rather die, often in brutal ways when many other religions would simply pay trivial homage to Caesar.

It had a profound effect on how Christians were viewed.

Don’t get me wrong, I tend towards the intellectual and academic side of things too (which is one of the many reasons why I love the Church). Yet, at some point, faith must play a role.

I was an atheist (or maybe an agnostic) at one time in my life too. It wasn’t because it was “cool.” In fact, where I’m from kids wore the “Nietzsche is Dead” shirts. Maybe it had more to do with rebelling than anything. Who knows? Plus, I had horrible experiences with a very conservative protestant church as a kid.

When I got older I came back and discovered that it has nothing to do with slogans on shirts, fish on cars, and all that jazz.
 
Hi, I’m new to the Forum and have a question about the video “The God Who Wasn’t There”. My son is quickly falling away from the faith and this video is one of the reasons.
Has anyone seen a Catholic answer to this movie?
Thanks for any help.
BB
I suggest Josh McDowell’s (or MacDowell) books on evidence for Christianity and expecially Peter Kreeft’s book Handbook of Christian Apologetics. Finally, I would suggest “The Case for Christ” and “The Case for Faith” by Lee Strobell
 
Thankyou very much for sharing the resources, especially, Strobel (with whom I was familiar) and Tektonics (which is new to me). I will be back on this site and value your contribution.

A reader of mine had seen an ad for the movie on a site we listed and asked about refutation. I had never heard of the movie:confused: , so I googled refute The God… and your forum thread came up fisrt–BINGO!👍

aardvark
 
I have not seen the new movie but i have seen another documentary which explains that the religion of christianity is a complete fraud. i recommend everyone watches it, it is free and its it posted on www.zeitgeistthemovie.com. it comes complete with pages of sources. To start i have a question to any fanatic of the catholic religion, why is every catholic church named after a saint? it is stated in the 10 commandment that we shall not worship false idols so why are they not only worshiping a saint but also Jesus? they are only supposed to be worshiping GOD who is the father of Jesus. Also the portrait of Jesus is faked and taken from the Egyptians and he is basically what is known as a solar messiah. They both have the same background came from a virgin, born on dec. 21 and crucified. Not only is Jesus a mythical figure but also other gods have the same background as Horus. Krishna the god of hinduism also has the sam background, born of a virgin, rose the dead, and born on Dec 25th but if we take the winter solstice under concideration it comes out to be Dec 21st interesting huh?..I could keep on goig and going because there are simply many gods in different time periods before even Jesus excited that portrait our so called savior now. The story of the 3 kings is complete BS, Jesus was born on Dec 21st and his birth was accompanied by a star in the east and brought upon the adoration of the 3 kings. in reality the three kings are just 3 major stars that line up on that day with the star in the east which pointed to the so called birth place of Jesus. To tell you the truth the bible is based on astrology, 12 diciples= 12 constellations. Also we have all see the cross with the circle around it, it is an astrological symbol. the cross divides the costellations into 4 sections of 3 constellations each and it also has the winte and summer solstices. Also we all know that the constellations go backwards so the last age was the age of Aries the ram thats why until this day jews blow the ram horn, we currently are in the age of picies also represented by the 2 fishes, does the fish with the word Jesus sound familiar? The next age is aquarius this is very important because in the bible it states that we will know when a new age comes when we walk in the city and find a man pouring a pitcher of water who is aquarius who brings the winter rains. To make it short and sweet i am a child of catholic parents but i also keep an open mind, i believe in a supreme beign i just do not believe in Jesus Christ. I have done my reaserch to make sure i am saying the absolute truth and if you are interested and having a discussion i will be more than glad to have a LONG chat with you.

-JM
 
JM, I’m afraid you’ll need to bone up on logic before anyone will have a long conversation with you.

For example, it simply doesn’t follow that naming a building after a saint is “worshiping” that saint.

You likely attended a school named after somebody. Did you learn only the namesake’s biography there?
 
Actually i attended a high school that was named after a creek. And yes i understand that part, it is not concidered worshiping but why at the end of every eucharist is that saint thanked. He has not done anything for anyone so why thank him and mention him in prayers?..So is that all you had to say about what i wrote? or can you give me an awnser to the coincidential backgrounds of all those gods?
 
Actually i attended a high school that was named after a creek. And yes i understand that part, it is not concidered worshiping but why at the end of every eucharist is that saint thanked. He has not done anything for anyone so why thank him and mention him in prayers?..So is that all you had to say about what i wrote? or can you give me an awnser to the coincidential backgrounds of all those gods?
If you understand that your argument was fallacious, why make it?

There are many threads on this forum already which dispense with a variety of the questions you’ve asked. Shall I do the heavy lifting for you and answer them all?

Would you listen if I did?

I can only speak for myself, but I devote my time to arguments that have some credibility, to people who are sincerely seeking the truth.

If you are sincere, and if you want to really discuss these and see what the Catholic responses are, I recommend posting one question per thread so that you get a full response.

Most of the answers you seek you’ll find right here:

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

And every saint is not thanked once the Eucharist is distributed, nor even during Mass. The litany of saints is read very occasionally—Easter, baptisms, etc—but once the Eucharist is distributed Mass ends with a simple blessing and a recessional hymn.

This is what makes responding to such myths so time-consuming. You could debunk most of them yourself by watching a Mass on EWTN, and the rest simply by looking up the topic in the Catechism.

That is, if you’re sincerely interested in the truth of the matter.
 
Actually i attended a high school that was named after a creek. And yes i understand that part, it is not concidered worshiping but why at the end of every eucharist is that saint thanked. He has not done anything for anyone so why thank him and mention him in prayers?..So is that all you had to say about what i wrote? or can you give me an awnser to the coincidential backgrounds of all those gods?
Write less and write better is my advice. And use paragraphs. And use capital letters where English grammar calls for them. All that old-fashioned stuff that actually facilitates communication between individuals. Because it’s courteous to your readers and because people just won’t read text that’s too hard to parse - I know I didn’t read your whole post.

Anyway, if you want to disprove your religion and free the human race from the tyranny of Catholicism, why not start with one (ONE!) point and let’s discuss it.
 
I was in catholic school for 3 years and I have some of the basic understandings down. But sure we can start by you awnsering this…why is the book of revelations is identical to the 10 commandments?
 
I was in catholic school for 3 years and I have some of the basic understandings down. But sure we can start by you awnsering this…why is the book of revelations is identical to the 10 commandments?
The book of Revelation is not identical to the 10 commandments. And in all honesty, I’ve never before heard anybody suggest it was.
 
I was in catholic school for 3 years and I have some of the basic understandings down. But sure we can start by you awnsering this…why is the book of revelations is identical to the 10 commandments?
Okay, here’s where VociMike’s advice is like gold.
  1. Open a new thread entitled “The Book of Revelations is Identical to the 10 Commandments”.
  2. Present your evidence for this premise.
  3. Ask why this should be.
As it is, the response is, prima facie, “The Book of Revelation (it’s not plural) is not identical to the Ten Commandments.”

One can simply open the Bible and see that the texts are different.
 
Mike,

I am not here to discuss the basics of english grammar. I am not trying to save anyone from anything but I’m am trying to get ignorant people to open up and use their common sense. For example the catholic use of an all knowing supreme beign that knows everything at all times…let me ask you something do you believe that the future is pre written?
 
Mike,

I am not here to discuss the basics of english grammar. I am not trying to save anyone from anything but I’m am trying to get ignorant people to open up and use their common sense. For example the catholic use of an all knowing supreme beign that knows everything at all times…let me ask you something do you believe that the future is pre written?
Okay, there are some 2 billion Christians. Are you going to convince that many people when you a) can’t form a coherent argument and b) can’t hold a polite conversation?

You can’t be that ignorant of the art of persuasion, can you?
 
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